Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these cases?

Paul R Johnson · July 29th, 2020, 01:14 AM

I often worry that so many of the things we do get analysed and then somebody produces the cunning plan guaranteed to work, by studying multiple successful products - not just scripts. You see a great movie. It really has an impact, so you break it down and discover three sections - Brian's example a great one. You then discover the same format in another of your favourites. The rule becomes solid and unbreakable, and the logical conclusion being that any script, if it fits the rules, must be a great one. Sometimes rules just fit, but the rule is just a fluke. Something products natural seem to fall into. Designing script content to fit the rules is futile, because you will create padding and cut decent content to make it fit - which is a backwards step.

I know you need rigid parameters to work in - but creative people design their work for others, not themselves. Story telling is a mystic art. Some people instinctively are great story tellers. Others simply suck. Some songwriters cannot do lyrics, so don't. Some do both, and do. Andrew Lloyd Webber and Elton John spring to mind - like the Gershwins. I firmly believe trying to develop skills you simply don't have, or have poor ones is futile. I have managed to get to my age by being able to do lots of things competently, but not brilliantly. Competently enough to get paid. My list of things I wanted to do, but have failed miserably at is thankfully short.
I cannot:
1. Dance
2. Fly aircraft
3. Play the drums properly
4. Play brass instruments and finally
4. Write scripts

Oddly - I know exactly how to do these things. I understand the language, the technicalities, have had the opportunities to do all of them multiple times. I can even give presentations on these subjects, I know them so well. However - my brain does not let me do them to any kind of standard. I've written a rotten script and it's been produced. Looking back, it really was dreadful, and only got produced because it fitted the pre-contracted cast as a last resort. I have no idea how many sections there were and only my friends were honest enough to tell me how dire it was ....... afterwards!

If your script is good, and everyone has confidence in it - then it is fine. Who cares how many chunks? You have to stop, if you can, working by wrote. For you, it doesn't help.

Brian Drysdale · July 29th, 2020, 04:32 AM

Of course, understanding structures don't mean you can write a story. If that were the case, a lot more people would be writing great scripts. I know someone who gleefully told me that he'd learnt the secret of script writing on a course - the 3 act structure. However, in asking further he didn't seem to know what a story was.

BTW I suspect he did because he told tell stories about things that happened at work etc. but he didn't seem to understand story as a concept.

Since Robert McKee got mentioned earlier, here are some of his thoughts.

"Story is about principles, not rules."

"Story is about eternal. universal forms, not formulas."

"Story is about archetypes, not stereotypes."

"Story is about thoroughness, not shortcuts."

"Story is about the realities, not the mysteries of writing."

"Story is about mastering the art, not second guessing the marketplace,".

"Story is about respect, not disdain, for the audience."

"Story is about originality. not duplication,".

Unfortunately, knowing all these things doesn't mean that you can write a good story.

Ryan Elder · July 31st, 2020, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

A 3 act structure has a mid point in the middle of the 2nd act (called in the mid point climax in Hollywood), if you don't have that you risk having a "sag" in the middle and the film feeling too long. You can call the bit before the mid point Act 2a and after Act 2b, but it's still the classic 3 act structure. Breaking Story: The Six Major Beats | Screenwriter-to-Screenwriter.com

It's basically get boy into a tree, throw rocks at the boy in the tree, get boy out of the tree.

Oh okay, according to that beat chart, I would say the script follows all of those, for sure. So I guess it is a 3 act structure then, yes.

Greg Miller · July 31st, 2020, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

Are you going to be happy looking back when you’re old at all the years spent talking?

Ryan will never grow old. Ryan is Peter Pan.

And are we going to be happy looking back at all the years we spent talking to Ryan? ("in one ear and out the other" as my father used to say)

Paul R Johnson · August 1st, 2020, 12:57 AM

When I first started to try to help Ryan, I was on the way up, now, I'm considering what retirement will be like, and in the years I was an educator, Ryan is probably my only lost cause. I really thought that collectively we could have moved him forward, but frankly - his position has remained constant, and he's stagnating not progressing and simply lacks the courage to do much in this industry. An eternal planner and reluctant doer.

Very often my failure is the lack of really detailed planning, but enough experience to deal with the consequences. Ryan plans the hell out of everything even if it takes ten years, and no progress.

Dave Baker · August 1st, 2020, 02:25 AM

Ryan's meandering questions remind me of the pantomime song that goes "There's a hole in my bucket dear Lisa..............". Or, for our American friends who maybe won't know the song, Catch-22.

Josh Bass · August 1st, 2020, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

When I first started to try to help Ryan, I was on the way up, now, I'm considering what retirement will be like, and in the years I was an educator, Ryan is probably my only lost cause. I really thought that collectively we could have moved him forward, but frankly - his position has remained constant, and he's stagnating not progressing and simply lacks the courage to do much in this industry. An eternal planner and reluctant doer.

Very often my failure is the lack of really detailed planning, but enough experience to deal with the consequences. Ryan plans the hell out of everything even if it takes ten years, and no progress.

I swear these threads have only been going on since 2019 or mid 2018. Has your career trajectory really been that short?

Pete Cofrancesco · August 1st, 2020, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

I swear these threads have only been going on since 2019 or mid 2018. Has your career trajectory really been that short?

I feel like Paul's story could be improved if it was retold to include three acts. Adding a mid point climax to the second act. See these talks haven't been a complete waste. Some of the knowledge intended for Ryan inadvertently rubbed off on me. ;-)

At this stage I'm chef Ramsay. "Really!, Really! My gran could do better! And she’s dead!" I feel like grabbing his camera away from him and telling him to Piss off while I make his movie for him. But instead I grimace and fight the urge to say anything.

Paul R Johnson · August 1st, 2020, 12:36 PM

Remember his previous incarnations have been going quite a long time - not quite 10 years, but moving that way. He was shooting on DV back then.
He joined one forum in 2014 - ten years was perhaps a good memory test that I failed - it just SEEMS like 10 years.

Josh Bass · August 1st, 2020, 01:45 PM

I guess thought you’d only been conversing with him on here.

Pete Cofrancesco · August 1st, 2020, 03:59 PM

In fairness to Paul, Ryan has a Peter Pan dream like quality. He is neither bound by time or reason. He has been randomly asking every conceivable cinematic question with no real tangible progress for what seems to be an eternity and has been doing this for even longer on other forums. Honestly it boggles my mind trying to imagine the time span of this one movie.

Josh Bass · August 1st, 2020, 04:10 PM

He says its been about 4 years

Pete Cofrancesco · August 1st, 2020, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

He says its been about 4 years

That's only half true because I believe he started it at least 10 years ago. The amount of time is only one aspect. If he had a decent script after 4 years that would be great....

Josh Bass · August 1st, 2020, 06:20 PM

I think we're edging our way into deleted post territory.

Ryan Elder · August 5th, 2020, 01:00 PM

Actually when it comes to covid I just helped out on a movie shoot where none of the actors had to social distance or where masks, especially since it was a thriller that involved fight scenes, and I am helping out on another one now, where covid doesn't seem to be an issue.

Are filmmakers just saying screw it, and doing it anyway?

July 29th, 2020, 01:14 AM	#151
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case I often worry that so many of the things we do get analysed and then somebody produces the cunning plan guaranteed to work, by studying multiple successful products - not just scripts. You see a great movie. It really has an impact, so you break it down and discover three sections - Brian's example a great one. You then discover the same format in another of your favourites. The rule becomes solid and unbreakable, and the logical conclusion being that any script, if it fits the rules, must be a great one. Sometimes rules just fit, but the rule is just a fluke. Something products natural seem to fall into. Designing script content to fit the rules is futile, because you will create padding and cut decent content to make it fit - which is a backwards step. I know you need rigid parameters to work in - but creative people design their work for others, not themselves. Story telling is a mystic art. Some people instinctively are great story tellers. Others simply suck. Some songwriters cannot do lyrics, so don't. Some do both, and do. Andrew Lloyd Webber and Elton John spring to mind - like the Gershwins. I firmly believe trying to develop skills you simply don't have, or have poor ones is futile. I have managed to get to my age by being able to do lots of things competently, but not brilliantly. Competently enough to get paid. My list of things I wanted to do, but have failed miserably at is thankfully short. I cannot: 1. Dance 2. Fly aircraft 3. Play the drums properly 4. Play brass instruments and finally 4. Write scripts Oddly - I know exactly how to do these things. I understand the language, the technicalities, have had the opportunities to do all of them multiple times. I can even give presentations on these subjects, I know them so well. However - my brain does not let me do them to any kind of standard. I've written a rotten script and it's been produced. Looking back, it really was dreadful, and only got produced because it fitted the pre-contracted cast as a last resort. I have no idea how many sections there were and only my friends were honest enough to tell me how dire it was ....... afterwards! If your script is good, and everyone has confidence in it - then it is fine. Who cares how many chunks? You have to stop, if you can, working by wrote. For you, it doesn't help.

July 29th, 2020, 04:32 AM	#152
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Of course, understanding structures don't mean you can write a story. If that were the case, a lot more people would be writing great scripts. I know someone who gleefully told me that he'd learnt the secret of script writing on a course - the 3 act structure. However, in asking further he didn't seem to know what a story was. BTW I suspect he did because he told tell stories about things that happened at work etc. but he didn't seem to understand story as a concept. Since Robert McKee got mentioned earlier, here are some of his thoughts. "Story is about principles, not rules." "Story is about eternal. universal forms, not formulas." "Story is about archetypes, not stereotypes." "Story is about thoroughness, not shortcuts." "Story is about the realities, not the mysteries of writing." "Story is about mastering the art, not second guessing the marketplace,". "Story is about respect, not disdain, for the audience." "Story is about originality. not duplication,". Unfortunately, knowing all these things doesn't mean that you can write a good story.

August 1st, 2020, 12:57 AM	#155
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case When I first started to try to help Ryan, I was on the way up, now, I'm considering what retirement will be like, and in the years I was an educator, Ryan is probably my only lost cause. I really thought that collectively we could have moved him forward, but frankly - his position has remained constant, and he's stagnating not progressing and simply lacks the courage to do much in this industry. An eternal planner and reluctant doer. Very often my failure is the lack of really detailed planning, but enough experience to deal with the consequences. Ryan plans the hell out of everything even if it takes ten years, and no progress.

August 1st, 2020, 02:25 AM	#156
Dave Baker Major Player Join Date: May 2014 Location: Brandon, England Posts: 458	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Ryan's meandering questions remind me of the pantomime song that goes "There's a hole in my bucket dear Lisa..............". Or, for our American friends who maybe won't know the song, Catch-22.

August 1st, 2020, 12:36 PM	#159
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Remember his previous incarnations have been going quite a long time - not quite 10 years, but moving that way. He was shooting on DV back then. He joined one forum in 2014 - ten years was perhaps a good memory test that I failed - it just SEEMS like 10 years.

August 1st, 2020, 01:45 PM	#160
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case I guess thought you’d only been conversing with him on here. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

August 1st, 2020, 03:59 PM	#161
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,997	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case In fairness to Paul, Ryan has a Peter Pan dream like quality. He is neither bound by time or reason. He has been randomly asking every conceivable cinematic question with no real tangible progress for what seems to be an eternity and has been doing this for even longer on other forums. Honestly it boggles my mind trying to imagine the time span of this one movie.

August 1st, 2020, 04:10 PM	#162
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case He says its been about 4 years __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

August 1st, 2020, 06:20 PM	#164
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case I think we're edging our way into deleted post territory. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

August 5th, 2020, 01:00 PM	#165
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Actually when it comes to covid I just helped out on a movie shoot where none of the actors had to social distance or where masks, especially since it was a thriller that involved fight scenes, and I am helping out on another one now, where covid doesn't seem to be an issue. Are filmmakers just saying screw it, and doing it anyway?