Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these cases?

Ryan Elder · July 8th, 2020, 06:24 PM

Oh well when it comes to the script, there is one way the person can get the bag, it's just I have to break traditional story structure to do it, and wasn't sure if that would make the story less engaging as a result. But I have have three options to pick from, and was just wondering other opinions on which was the best.

John Nantz · July 8th, 2020, 08:12 PM

Ryan -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Well I'm just trying to think outside the box on how to get around the covid issues. But maybe that is my problem because if whenever I try to go outside the box, my ideas are too problematic, and I should not try to think outside?

I started to write a reply, one that would ask you to do a survey of those who will, or might, work with you on this project, to find out who would be, nor not be, willing to work without a mask and PPE (Personal Protective Equipment), but then decided not to. Why? Because ...

Because, the more I think about it, the approaching end of the warm season followed by the cold one (with indoor heater noises, remember the Judo video?), the mask issues, the Covid flu issues (and loosing a key person that kills the production), for a Feature that everybody will be proud of and not thrown together helter-skelter.
We're looking at Mid JULY right now and the cold fall is right around the corner. The days are already getting shorter. I'm thinking "Not this year".

There is too much left work on, too many unknowns, too many issues, and the time is running out.

Pessimist here wants to know:

Script - what percent is it at?
Scenes - need a list of scenes and locations
Equipment list and personnel for each scene (based on this, one can start costing it out)
Legal stuff - what is needed? How long to get approvals by location?
Costumes -
Etc.

Disclaimer: this is not my forte so that's why I've been out of here. However .... I don't see how anyone can put a Feature together without some basic information. Schedule! Cost! These are important things. Need to know lots of stuff.

All the time seems to be spent on the computer, working at a snail's pace. Sorry, but just don't see how one guy (and maybe a friend or two), can put this low/no cost Feature tougher in this timeline. If you think otherwise, let's talk Timeline.

Brian Drysdale · July 8th, 2020, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh well when it comes to the script, there is one way the person can get the bag, it's just I have to break traditional story structure to do it, and wasn't sure if that would make the story less engaging as a result. But I have have three options to pick from, and was just wondering other opinions on which was the best.

I still don't know what the problem is and why it should break the 3 act structure. Getting the bag is just one more difficulty that a character has to overcome. You, as the writer, just have to work out the tactics that the character has to use to get it. Quite a few films have characters having to get something, be it real or just a device to get the story going and is forgotten about as the action takes over.

Given the other issues you've had in film making, I suspect it's more you creating problems in your head than any problem the character may have in getting a bag.

You're the only person who has the script, so you're the only one who can work it out. Repeatedly asking questions on a forum that no one can directly answer will get you no where. There were a number of good thoughts in that thread, which you seemingly couldn't engage with, which does seem to fit a pattern in your thought processes.

Making changes in a script can have ramifications in a number of ways, but that's part of writing.

Brian Drysdale · July 16th, 2020, 01:30 AM

Regarding how you plot out your story - these are different, the plot is how you tell the story. The usual method is to do a treatment which gives the story in a standard format, not a script format in about 10 to 12 pages. This doesn't have any dialogue, just has what happens.

You then work things out with the treatment, which takes time. There is no easy method and the answers usually lie within the story, the characters, their needs and their world.

Ryan Elder · July 20th, 2020, 06:37 PM

Oh okay thanks. I wrote a few outlines, and went with the one I thought was best, it's just other people who have read it say I should go back to the drawing board, but not sure how to approach it now, since some of the suggestions means not having a a traditional 3 act structure, but maybe that's okay if it means the characters are more logical?

As for making it an animated movie, it was suggested to me by one other so far, to do an animated movie instead, if I cannot get enough people interested because of covid, but it was also said on here that I shouldn't because it would just be more challenging to do that. So I am not sure if I should try to the animated route or not. Would it be more costly?

Brian Drysdale · July 21st, 2020, 01:05 AM

I suspect the people in the other forum don't realize that you're talking about a feature film when they bring up animation. I saw that message and they seem to be suggesting that you do the animation. If you can do the animation yourself, that's fine, but it's unlikely you'll find an animator or animators to do that amount of work for free. They are proposing that you make a short animated film, not your feature film, this something that you can do on your own.

For a treatment, you need more than an outline, it will go through everything, so that you've more or less solved all the questions that you're bringing up in the forums. That's a writer's job and if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

You'd be surprised how films still have a 3 act structure, even the non linear ones. The structure won't affect the characters, that's revealed by what they by their actions. Even dialogue is something that they do, they're angry with someone, verbally put pressure on other characters or bullying them, are saddened by what someone says, or what they have to tell someone. they are in despair. (Just like people who write the dialogue in these forum messages), they lie, they blackmail. These are all actions that use the spoken word,

If there's no dramatic point to some dialogue it shouldn't be there. You have to hide the exposition or use it for a dramatic purpose. As Robert McKee puts it: "use exposition like bullets".

It's up to you to work the outline that's working with the readers into a suitable structure as you're writing the treatment. This prevents you getting bogged down with the dialogue.

You can pitch the outlines to people you trust to see their reaction, so that you can make a judgment call on the one that gets the response with your audience. However, you do need to be able to make the creative decisions yourself.

As mentioned by people on the other forum, you should be building up your network of collaborators in the real world and get working on a film. You don't get experience by asking endless questions on forums. You won't learn anything unless you make mistakes and learn from them.

Unfortunately, I suspect you've become addicted to forums, which is getting in the way of you progressing as a film maker. because you're just going around in circles like a rudderless ship.

Pete Cofrancesco · July 21st, 2020, 04:17 PM

Ryan reminds me of a poor man's Charlie from the movie Adaptation. Great movie have you ever seen it?

Brian Drysdale · July 21st, 2020, 04:41 PM

Yes, although I'm nor sure if Robert McKee can help Ryan.

Pete Cofrancesco · July 21st, 2020, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

Yes, although I'm nor sure if Robert McKee can help Ryan.

If he ever had a nemesis it would be Ryan.
Ryan chasing after Robert McKee. “Mr McKee I have one more question about my movie...

Ryan Elder · July 22nd, 2020, 06:22 PM

Oh okay, well I do still have a 3 act structure, just not the traditional type of 3 act structure that you read about writing. But maybe that is okay, and I can just own it, and hope for the best.

Brian Drysdale · July 23rd, 2020, 01:18 AM

What do you mean by not a traditional 3 act structure?

Paul R Johnson · July 23rd, 2020, 11:02 AM

You either have 3 acts, or not - surely?

Brian Drysdale · July 23rd, 2020, 12:54 PM

May be it's Godard: “A story should have a beginning, a middle and an end, but not necessarily in that order.” Although, it may be a case that in possibly attempting non linear story telling Ryan is digging a hole for himself.

Some of my films are non linear, there is a 3 act structure to them and the important bit is the stroy, but you run the risk of losing part of the audience. There are writing books which go into that type of story telling.

If you're doing that type of thing, you do need to be confident about what you're doing and where the thrust of the story lies. Unfortunately, given all the forum questions on his script, Ryan doesn't seem to be that certain.

Ryan Elder · July 28th, 2020, 10:37 PM

Oh okay. Well I have enough story for a 94 page script, but I just don't know if I see it as 3 acts. It kind of feels like four acts when I see it.

Or some people seem to call this Act I, Act 2a, Act 2b, and Act 3, so perhaps I have something similar there. I would say the story is linear though.

Brian Drysdale · July 29th, 2020, 12:39 AM

A 3 act structure has a mid point in the middle of the 2nd act (called in the mid point climax in Hollywood), if you don't have that you risk having a "sag" in the middle and the film feeling too long. You can call the bit before the mid point Act 2a and after Act 2b, but it's still the classic 3 act structure. Breaking Story: The Six Major Beats | Screenwriter-to-Screenwriter.com

It's basically get boy into a tree, throw rocks at the boy in the tree, get boy out of the tree.

July 8th, 2020, 06:24 PM	#136
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Oh well when it comes to the script, there is one way the person can get the bag, it's just I have to break traditional story structure to do it, and wasn't sure if that would make the story less engaging as a result. But I have have three options to pick from, and was just wondering other opinions on which was the best.

July 16th, 2020, 01:30 AM	#139
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Regarding how you plot out your story - these are different, the plot is how you tell the story. The usual method is to do a treatment which gives the story in a standard format, not a script format in about 10 to 12 pages. This doesn't have any dialogue, just has what happens. You then work things out with the treatment, which takes time. There is no easy method and the answers usually lie within the story, the characters, their needs and their world. Last edited by Brian Drysdale; July 16th, 2020 at 10:32 AM.

July 20th, 2020, 06:37 PM	#140
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Oh okay thanks. I wrote a few outlines, and went with the one I thought was best, it's just other people who have read it say I should go back to the drawing board, but not sure how to approach it now, since some of the suggestions means not having a a traditional 3 act structure, but maybe that's okay if it means the characters are more logical? As for making it an animated movie, it was suggested to me by one other so far, to do an animated movie instead, if I cannot get enough people interested because of covid, but it was also said on here that I shouldn't because it would just be more challenging to do that. So I am not sure if I should try to the animated route or not. Would it be more costly?

July 21st, 2020, 01:05 AM	#141
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case I suspect the people in the other forum don't realize that you're talking about a feature film when they bring up animation. I saw that message and they seem to be suggesting that you do the animation. If you can do the animation yourself, that's fine, but it's unlikely you'll find an animator or animators to do that amount of work for free. They are proposing that you make a short animated film, not your feature film, this something that you can do on your own. For a treatment, you need more than an outline, it will go through everything, so that you've more or less solved all the questions that you're bringing up in the forums. That's a writer's job and if it was easy everyone would be doing it. You'd be surprised how films still have a 3 act structure, even the non linear ones. The structure won't affect the characters, that's revealed by what they by their actions. Even dialogue is something that they do, they're angry with someone, verbally put pressure on other characters or bullying them, are saddened by what someone says, or what they have to tell someone. they are in despair. (Just like people who write the dialogue in these forum messages), they lie, they blackmail. These are all actions that use the spoken word, If there's no dramatic point to some dialogue it shouldn't be there. You have to hide the exposition or use it for a dramatic purpose. As Robert McKee puts it: "use exposition like bullets". It's up to you to work the outline that's working with the readers into a suitable structure as you're writing the treatment. This prevents you getting bogged down with the dialogue. You can pitch the outlines to people you trust to see their reaction, so that you can make a judgment call on the one that gets the response with your audience. However, you do need to be able to make the creative decisions yourself. As mentioned by people on the other forum, you should be building up your network of collaborators in the real world and get working on a film. You don't get experience by asking endless questions on forums. You won't learn anything unless you make mistakes and learn from them. Unfortunately, I suspect you've become addicted to forums, which is getting in the way of you progressing as a film maker. because you're just going around in circles like a rudderless ship. Last edited by Brian Drysdale; July 21st, 2020 at 06:16 AM.

July 21st, 2020, 04:17 PM	#142
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,995	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Ryan reminds me of a poor man's Charlie from the movie Adaptation. Great movie have you ever seen it?

July 21st, 2020, 04:41 PM	#143
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Yes, although I'm nor sure if Robert McKee can help Ryan.

July 22nd, 2020, 06:22 PM	#145
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Oh okay, well I do still have a 3 act structure, just not the traditional type of 3 act structure that you read about writing. But maybe that is okay, and I can just own it, and hope for the best.

July 23rd, 2020, 01:18 AM	#146
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case What do you mean by not a traditional 3 act structure?

July 23rd, 2020, 11:02 AM	#147
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case You either have 3 acts, or not - surely?

July 23rd, 2020, 12:54 PM	#148
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case May be it's Godard: “A story should have a beginning, a middle and an end, but not necessarily in that order.” Although, it may be a case that in possibly attempting non linear story telling Ryan is digging a hole for himself. Some of my films are non linear, there is a 3 act structure to them and the important bit is the stroy, but you run the risk of losing part of the audience. There are writing books which go into that type of story telling. If you're doing that type of thing, you do need to be confident about what you're doing and where the thrust of the story lies. Unfortunately, given all the forum questions on his script, Ryan doesn't seem to be that certain.

July 28th, 2020, 10:37 PM	#149
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case Oh okay. Well I have enough story for a 94 page script, but I just don't know if I see it as 3 acts. It kind of feels like four acts when I see it. Or some people seem to call this Act I, Act 2a, Act 2b, and Act 3, so perhaps I have something similar there. I would say the story is linear though.

July 29th, 2020, 12:39 AM	#150
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Do filmmakers tell the cast and crew where the money is coming from in these case A 3 act structure has a mid point in the middle of the 2nd act (called in the mid point climax in Hollywood), if you don't have that you risk having a "sag" in the middle and the film feeling too long. You can call the bit before the mid point Act 2a and after Act 2b, but it's still the classic 3 act structure. Breaking Story: The Six Major Beats \| Screenwriter-to-Screenwriter.com It's basically get boy into a tree, throw rocks at the boy in the tree, get boy out of the tree.