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Old July 21st, 2020, 03:23 PM   #16
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Elder View Post
Oh yes I understand that you choose the fader or gain in the menu yes. And I assumed it was the 12 o'clock position but just wanted to make absolutely sure.

But then manual did not say where the zero position was on the fader.
Since this isn't a consumer grade piece of equipment the manual assumes you understand how to mix. All professional mixers 12 o'clock is 0. Watch the video instead of telling us what you thought the manual meant. Curtis will explain how to use it, just follow what he says, end of story.
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Old July 21st, 2020, 03:40 PM   #17
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Oh okay, I watched the video but there are some things he left out. I already know the things he was talking about in the video, but it was said before on here, that perhaps I shouldn't start out with the fader at zero everytime when I gain stage.

If this is true, then he did not cover why not though.
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Old July 21st, 2020, 03:53 PM   #18
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Elder View Post
Oh yes I understand that you choose the fader or gain in the menu yes. And I assumed it was the 12 o'clock position but just wanted to make absolutely sure.

But then manual did not say where the zero position was on the fader. The youtube video posted there explains some things for sure, but it also does not say where on the fader that zero is at, unless the middle is zero, when he talks about starting out in the middle.
I only know the fundamentals that are used for all mixers. You set the gain prior to recording then use your faders fine tune during the recording. 12 o'clock means 0, ie whatever the gain level that was set is unaltered and sent to the mix. 12 o'clock position allows you room to either increase or decrease during recording. Setting the fader either extreme the 6 o'clock position would only allow you to increase or decrease depending on what extreme you put it at.
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Old July 21st, 2020, 03:57 PM   #19
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

I thought you understood mixers?

Everyone is a little different, but requirement of a fader, rotary or linear, is to be able to operate at a comfy position where if you need to turn it down, you have enough travel, but also have enough to squeeze a little extra. Some people adjust the gain so they can have all the faders in roughly the same position when the balance is right, while others seem happy to operate with some right at the bottom and others much higher. You use the gains and the faders in a mode that works for you - which is usually the most advantageous for minimum noise and maximum tweakability.

WHY do you start with your faders down? I keep mine around unity, and then gain can be set, giving me optimum fader travel. I see no point in starting with the faders down.
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Old July 21st, 2020, 03:57 PM   #20
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Oh okay thanks, that helps.

But the one thing I don't understand is, if I am to set the gain first, the fader has to be in an original position first. That original position should be 12 o'clock, every time, is that right?
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Old July 21st, 2020, 04:00 PM   #21
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson View Post
I thought you understood mixers?

Everyone is a little different, but requirement of a fader, rotary or linear, is to be able to operate at a comfy position where if you need to turn it down, you have enough travel, but also have enough to squeeze a little extra. Some people adjust the gain so they can have all the faders in roughly the same position when the balance is right, while others seem happy to operate with some right at the bottom and others much higher. You use the gains and the faders in a mode that works for you - which is usually the most advantageous for minimum noise and maximum tweakability.

WHY do you start with your faders down? I keep mine around unity, and then gain can be set, giving me optimum fader travel. I see no point in starting with the faders down.
Oh okay, well I have been doing it in a way that has worked for me this whole time, but recently another audio specialist says I have been doing it wrong. Usually I will turn the gain up to about 75% or until I felt the mic was fully powered with gain, and then I would bring the fader down to the right level.

He said this was wrong and that I should be starting out with the fader at zero, or at unity if that means the same thing, and that I should then bring the gain up to the correct level then. So I started doing it his way for a while now. But have I been doing it wrong before, and he is right?
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Old July 21st, 2020, 04:01 PM   #22
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

His way sounds right to me. However make sure you understand "0" does not mean all the way down, it means right in the middle of its range, neither adding or subtractingj, i.e. unity.
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Old July 21st, 2020, 04:08 PM   #23
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson View Post
I thought you understood mixers?

Everyone is a little different, but requirement of a fader, rotary or linear, is to be able to operate at a comfy position where if you need to turn it down, you have enough travel, but also have enough to squeeze a little extra. Some people adjust the gain so they can have all the faders in roughly the same position when the balance is right, while others seem happy to operate with some right at the bottom and others much higher. You use the gains and the faders in a mode that works for you - which is usually the most advantageous for minimum noise and maximum tweakability.

WHY do you start with your faders down? I keep mine around unity, and then gain can be set, giving me optimum fader travel. I see no point in starting with the faders down.
Oh okay thanks, that makes sense. I thought that's what it meant, but just making sure, especially since they are not labeled. However, there is a concern I have with is way though. So I am going to record some gunshots from real guns. However, if I record them the his way, such as starting out with the fader at unity, I know I am only have to turn the gain up just a little bit since shots, since the gun shots are so loud.

However, if the gain is turned up just a little bit, I feel I will be too close to the noise floor cause the gain is hardly turned up at all. Therefore, should I go the opposite route and turn the gain up quite high, and keep the fader turned down therefore, since that will keep me further away from the noise floor?
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Old July 21st, 2020, 04:09 PM   #24
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

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Usually I will turn the gain up to about 75% or until I felt the mic was fully powered with gain...
If I read too many of his post in a day I begin pulling my hair out.
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Old July 21st, 2020, 04:55 PM   #25
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Careful. From your DVX pic you don't have much to spare. I say this as a fellow baldy.
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Old July 21st, 2020, 04:57 PM   #26
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

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Originally Posted by Josh Bass View Post
Careful. From your DVX pic you don't have much to spare. I say this as a fellow baldy.
Lol that’s why it’s so painful I have limited supply.

I got pulled into another one of his threads that repeats the same pattern.
1. I have a problem
2. What’s the problem
3. In articulate explanation
4. Solutions and advice given
5. There is no problem Someone told me something just making sure there wasn’t a problem
Uggggghhhh!
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Old July 21st, 2020, 11:38 PM   #27
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Faders tend to be numbered in one of three ways:

1.) "Zero" is full counter-clockwise, with zero percent of the signal getting through. The bigger the number, the louder the signal (typical on home stereos, Bogen PA amps, etc. Maximum is typically 10, except for Spinal Tap. ... or
2.) "Zero" is full clockwise where the numbers represent decibels, actually of attenuation, so they are really negative numbers. i.e. "zero" = 0dB = 100% (of some reference amount of gain), -6dB is close to 50%, -12dB is close to 25%, -20dB is exactly 10%, etc. ... or
3.) A variant of (2.) above, where "zero" is placed mid-rotation. Numbers clockwise from zero are positive, i.e. more gain than "zero," and numbers counter-clockwise from zero are negative, i.e. less gain than "zero" as in variant (2.).

dB numbers originally meant actual electrical gain as pertained to an analog amplifier, or electrical loss as pertained to an attenuator. Unity gain, 0dB, meant the signal coming out of a device was exactly the same level as the signal going in. A wire has unity gain (well, actually a very tiny bit of attenuation, and a very tiny bit of noise, but we can safely disregard those).

dB numbers now are meaningful only with some additional reference. For example the specs might say "0dB gain produces a file at 0dBFS with an input level of -60dBV."

The point is that the numbers don't matter most of the time. They're there for convenience, so once you find a good level, you can approximately repeat it the next time you're in the same situation. We're just using numbers to talk about rotational position. "5" on a Bogen PA amp is the same as "0dB" on some recorders is the same as "twelve o'clock" ... they all refer to 50% rotation.

So you set the fader at a *convenient* position ... maybe 50% rotation, maybe 66% rotation, maybe 75% rotation ... IMHO that's pretty arbitrary and anywhere within that range is fairly reasonable. Just pick a position convenient for you. Then do a test, make sure your preamp gain trim is appropriate for that mic and that situation, or correct it if necessary. Then if the talent starts yelling, you have room to turn down the level; if the talent starts mumbling you have room to turn it up. If you want to mess up the front panel by using a grease pencil, you wouldn't be the first person to do so.

I could label my fader "apples, bananas, hamburgers, blondes, yo-yos, petunias, aspirin" and it wouldn't matter for day-to-day use. If blondes is the middle of the scale, I would always start with blondes. If you prefer yo-yos, Ryan (somehow I suspect you do), then start with yo-yos every time.

No need to waste any more time with this non-issue.

Last edited by Greg Miller; July 22nd, 2020 at 12:20 AM.
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Old July 21st, 2020, 11:55 PM   #28
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Elder View Post
I don't understand this part, because I thought that the fader was suppose to be open half way, but half is 1/2, so why do you say 3/4? Isn't that 3 quarters of the way and not half therefore?
Ryan, read it again. He said "half way to 3/4." In other words, somewhere between 50% rotation and 75% rotation.
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Old July 22nd, 2020, 01:05 AM   #29
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

Oh okay thank you very much for the information. I really appreciate it.

So since I will be recording gunshots, I can just start with the fader raised halfway up, and then turn the gain just a little bit, since the gunshot will be really loud, if that's best?

My only concern is, is that since the gain is only going to be turned up a little, I will be really close to the noise floor. I can hear the noise floor, if the gain is only raised a little when I try to boost it up.

So for recording loud gun shots, will this be a problem therefore?
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Old July 22nd, 2020, 01:36 AM   #30
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Re: The fader on my field recorder does not have numbers, does anyone know?

With gunshots the problem won't be the noise it's going to over modulating. Analogue can sound great when you do that, but digital sounds awful.

BTW there are lots of sound library gun shots. In movies they often combine the sounds from various guns to create the sound effect. A pistol doesn't sound that impressive when you record it..

I made a film that had a fair amount of gunfire and I don't think we used any of the gun shots from the shoot, they were all replaced in post and various guns mixed together to create the gunshot sound.
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