Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

If I'm not mistaken, the original version of this post was better!

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

He may have self-censored to avoid getting deleted

For some reason after reading a few of his posts, I tend to lose my patients and temper. I keep telling myself stay positive don't get mad it's only Ryan. The angel on my shoulder made me edit it. After all I don't want coal in my stocking.

[Ryan Elder]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to frustrate anyone or make them mad. I am just asking for advice, and do appreciate the advice!

I just want to try to find a balance, because in the past, if I do not give the composer specific instructions, the scores didn't come out sounding like what I was looking for. I was just trying to find a way to be more specific and guideful. But I don't mean to make anyone frustrated or mad. I apologize.

[Paul R Johnson]

Greg - download the demo of the Pianoteq piano. It's not even that expensive and the quality is so good my composer friend doesn't record his C3 Yamaha any more, but uses the Pianoteq product. It can also do that strange half-pedal thing where you can make a similar sound to the one you mention.

Ryan - try to imagine what would happen if you were colour blind, and gave instructions to colourists. Or were deaf and tried to assist the sound mixer? This is what you do. You simply do not have the vocabulary or skill base to 'advise' on music. It could also be that your musical viewpoint is skewed.

I do know that I could NEVER work with you. I assume murder, by ice axe, or garrotting is a crime in Saskatoon?

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, but don't I have some say in what I want the music to sound like though, and thus picking those sounds? Like for example, I told the composer I like the sound of a certain instrument from a certain example track. He said it was a bass trombone. So I said yes that's it, give me a bass trombone then. But is that bad of me to suggest that?

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

I do know that I could NEVER work with you. I assume murder, by ice axe, or garrotting is a crime in Saskatoon?

LOL

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay, but don't I have some say in what I want the music to sound like though, and thus picking those sounds? Like for example, I told the composer I like the sound of a certain instrument from a certain example track. He said it was a bass trombone. So I said yes that's it, give me a bass trombone then. But is that bad of me to suggest that?

There are ideas and approaches that have merit but you misinterpret and grossly over use them to point of madness.

A normal approach would be to describe the sound and feel you want for the movie and you'd have back and forth until you're on the same page. Then you describe the mood for a scene then let the composer do his thing.

You act like you're building the Sistine chapel. When in reality you're producing and substandard amateur movie, that won't ever see a movie theater. Throw caution to the wind, let your composer do his thing. The success of this movie isn't hanging in the balance for want of a perfect sound track. Stop copying feature films and be original and creative.

[Josh Bass]

Paul, if I can (again) divert for a moment...

Now I know you're not a drummer, but you seem to know a lot about music theory, mixing, composing, etc.

So I started playing drums last year. Unfortunately I can only own an e-kit cause of noise/neighbors. Of course I am super jealous of anyone who regularly gets to play acoustic drums.

I've watched a ton of tutorial videos on drums from different youtube creators, and I have to ask...what is it about acoustic drums that (often) makes them sound better than the e-kit? Theoretically, they shouldn't....using Superior Drummer 3, Steven Slate, (I run through Superior Drummer) etc. etc., you are dealing with professionally recorded (high end studio, legendary producers, etc) high quality samples, and yet, I would say most of the time the acoustic kits just sound better, in the videos I've watched. Doesn't seem like it should be that way...if you mic and record a real kick/snare etc. well, and my e kit generates a sample of that recording when I hit my kick/snare, that SHOULD sound just as good, and yet, there' s something just "missing". And this is with presets in SD that have all manner of EQ/comp/reverb, or as dry as you want.

I dunno, maybe it's all psychological. or it's hearing the clonk of my stick on a rubber cymbal underneath the sweet sound of a hi-hat.

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

LOL


There are ideas and approaches that have merit but you misinterpret and grossly over use them to point of madness.

A normal approach would be to describe the sound and feel you want for the movie and you'd have back and forth until you're on the same page. Then you describe the mood for a scene then let the composer do his thing.

You act like you're building the Sistine chapel. When in reality you're producing and substandard amateur movie, that won't ever see a movie theater. Throw caution to the wind, let your composer do his thing. The success of this movie isn't hanging in the balance for want of a perfect sound track. Stop copying feature films and be original and creative.

Oh okay, but when describing to the composer, is it still good to give him samples, to help me explain? Can't the composer take those sounds I am looking for and make it his own rather than me trying to explain without any examples whatsoever? Even though they are trying to create something original, we still need to know what sounds we are going to use to get that, don't we?

[Brian Drysdale]

You can give examples of what you're thinking of, however, you don't need to go into endless detail of particular instruments. The composer can pick that up from listening to the track(s), you don't need to know precisely how they achieve it, you should be listening out for how well it works your film. That's your job as the director, not trying to decide if that's the same flute.

[Paul R Johnson]

Ryan - it's fine to give him ideas of music that has worked for other movies that you think would suit. That's what you do, then you forget about it. Don't describe or attempt to help - just say like the instrument at 00:38 like you did for me. Let him work it out.

Josh - Oddly, Drums are the one thing I can't play well because I cannot do four limbs at the same time, but I have an electronic kit here and a real one. The real one is not good, but with some work, sounds very real. My theory on this is because most electronic kits have different degrees of sampling. So between a quiet tickle and a full on thrapp, MIDI only has 127 levels, and realistically they get squeezed into far less, but the sample or synthesised sound for that drum might only have three or maybe a few more different tones that get played at different volumes. So the quietest tickle sample suddenly changes to a harder sound, at only a tiny bit louder when you go from MIDI 30 to 31. On top of this, there must be hundreds of different sounds by where you hit the drum too.

I've got a few drum sets in Cubase and some are much, much better than the sounds in my electronic kit's brain. What I'm finding is that my drums now sound better than what I can physically play, and some of them might have 20 or 30 phrases that the machine plays and these are much better than what I program or play. I guess you are finding the same as me - even if I record twice, kick snare first pass and then I add the hats and cymbals, it still sounds a bit naff. Excellent drummers seem to coax more out, but there is a feel from a real skin, and those flex heads like you find in the Rolands, are better than the solid rubber - so my opinion is like yours. However, my son had a drum teacher, who now plays in a technically complex show band - he uses a real miked up snare, real cymbals, but electronic toms and kick - this he says is the best sound, and nicer to play.

[Josh Bass]

I sorta get that. Toms you (typically) only use occasionally and (typically) hit almost exclusively in the center, kicks even if youre an expert player, are hit the exact same way each time, only with varying degrees of hardness. Snare cymbals etc on the other hand sound will depend on stick type, which part of the stick hits, WHERE it hits, as well as how hard etc, so there’s much more room for expression, so it makes sense to let the snare and cymbals be real while toms and kick are samples.

[Paul R Johnson]

Yep - and drummers buy loads of different sticks don't they, and these don't get modelled by the brain. Quite a few of my drummer friends are now putting triggers on their real kits so they can get extra sounds, or negate the need to buy extra drums. They're late to the party, but my God they are now drinking hard. One band we work with (or used to) had such a complex drum setup, it travels set up inside an enormous flight case that lets it go in the truck in one piece. They roll it into position, lift the lid off and plug in the preset mics and sampler outputs! He has a butt kicker too - if you've never tried one, and get the chance have a go it's madness. You hit the kick hard and your bum fires into the air!

[Josh Bass]

Sounds cool.

As I said I run through superior drummer...so the kit brain sounds are bypassed, midi data sent through SD instead, so I hit the snare and it generates a snare sound from SD. there actually are some brush kits/samples and things like that, and you can probably buy add on packs. More advanced pads and kits support positional sensing which knows where you are on a drum (i.e. how far between center and edge and approximates that sound by mixing center and edge samples, whereas my simpler kit has a sharp cutoff between edge sounds and center sounds, no grey area.

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

You can give examples of what you're thinking of, however, you don't need to go into endless detail of particular instruments. The composer can pick that up from listening to the track(s), you don't need to know precisely how they achieve it, you should be listening out for how well it works your film. That's your job as the director, not trying to decide if that's the same flute.

Oh okay. Well I didn't think I went into endless detail. I thought I would just tell him the instrument and sound like, and he would tell me. But I feel I have to point out the sounds I want, because in the past, if I didn't, the composers would not use those same instruments at all, and it wouldn't sound like what I wanted.

[Pete Cofrancesco]

If I could take a break from talking about Ryan's movie and his never ending problems.

I wanted to wish everyone a Merry Christmas.

I couldn't follow half the things you guys were talking about. It's like a different language. Now I know what my clients must hear when I talk video jargon.

I just completed editing an organ concert that I filmed the other day. I was amazed by the skillful of playing of such an instrument and the wonderful songs. Ahhh music! gets me every time.

[Greg Miller]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

I just completed editing an organ concert that I filmed the other day. I was amazed by the skillful of playing of such an instrument and the wonderful songs. Ahhh music! gets me every time.

Is it OK to discuss audio here? I'm curious what sort of mics you used, and how you placed them. Of course this will involve description of the space and the instrument. There seem to be a huge range of opinions about recording organ (partly because no two organs or spaces are the same). What did you do; how did it work out?