Sumix 2/3" 1920x1080 CMOS

Solomon Chase · April 23rd, 2008, 10:15 AM

Farhad, did you get my e-mail? (I used "Send message via e-mail" on your forum profile)

Farhad Towfiq · April 23rd, 2008, 02:16 PM

This HD seems just right for the PC-independednt (PC-hidden) camera

http://www.hothardware.com/Articles/...iraptor_300GB/

Sorry that I was too busy last few days to answer some of the questions.
Perhaps by next week new software for SMX-12A2C will be ready. Some features like 10 bit LUT will be released later.

One of my duties is to manage expectations. If we can continue progress and avoid surprises then we are on right track. The PC-less camera will not be competing with Scarlet or other mass production cameras. We agreed to attempt this with Sumix engineers with this idea that this camera will be hand made in batches of 5-10 and later perhaps in larger numbers. Each batch will be made reliable with custom features and presets. The goal will be to make them absolutely reliable in production environment with no surprise. The strength will be in high dynamic range and low signal to noise ratio and also in tested and tried performance. Because of no fear about parts going obsolete we can put in any batch what performance we can get. We are not sure how we will price them. Perhaps the price must be set so the next batch will be justified.

Jose A. Garcia · April 23rd, 2008, 05:32 PM

Everything sounds so good it's hard to believe.

So Farhad, you say the new software doesn't come with all the features you told us. Which ones are included and which are yet to come in new releases?

And about the PC-less camera, we were talking about CF cards, just like the Scarlet, but as it's going to have less compression, that 300gb HDD sounds perfect for it.

Anything else you can tell us about the cam?

Daniel Lipats · April 27th, 2008, 10:14 AM

I just ran across SheerVideo codec. Looks like its a wavelet codec like CineForm. They make some interesting claims on their website such as "SheerVideo is the fastest codec in the world." Advertised as fast and nondestructive.

SheerVideo is not free but its only $149.

This will take at least $850 off the final camera price. Even more when you consider Prospect 2k($1,500) just to edit the captured cineform raw files.

They have a demo, I have not tried it yet.

http://www.bitjazz.com/en/products/sheervideo/

Noah Yuan-Vogel · April 27th, 2008, 11:02 PM

sheervideo is not wavelet. wavelet is always lossy, destructive compression. sheervideo is lossless. it also doesnt support bayer video, so it might not be as useful as cineform raw which has support for raw, luts, nle plugins, adjustable display/debayer options etc and a tested workflow.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · April 28th, 2008, 07:59 AM

Noah, sorry to tell you but you are wrong.
Wavelet can be lossy or LOSSLESS. If you don't believe my word just look into Jpeg2000.
If you are applying a reversible transforn, and not doing any quantization on it, basically you get something which stores all the original information.Mathematically Lossless.

Same thing goes for Block Based compression.If you are using a "reversible" transform and don't use quantization, you get a lossless codec.

Biel Bestue · April 29th, 2008, 06:28 AM

here is a great explanation on the mtf issue:

http://media.panavision.com/Screenin...ing_Part1.html

how does sumix compete speaking on mtf? compared to say, 3ccd cam? maybe viper... or one chip RED?

Noah Yuan-Vogel · May 1st, 2008, 11:22 PM

oh, juan, yes you are right. Sorry, I do not often hear of people using jpeg2000 for lossless compression but it is definitely available. I also have not heard of redcode or cineform supporting lossless compression.

what i should have said was simply that sheervideo is lossless only as far as i know and that cineform does not support mathematically lossless as far as i know, so its a tough comparison. since from what i understand sheervideo only supports YUV and RGB and mathematically lossless (avg ~2.5:1 compression for live video?) it probably only saves very little if any space per second of video compared to uncompressed raw.

Daniel Lipats · May 4th, 2008, 02:41 PM

Found some free time today to shoot some resolution charts to test the new lenses but I don't have the equipment or setup here at home to do it properly.

I printed the test chart at 600dpi on an inkjet printer. Lit with a single 200w light. Lenses were both at about f/3

This probably wont be much help to anyone, but thought I would share them anyway.

They turned out a lot darker then what I saw on my monitor. I may have more free time later this week to do it right.

(the ghosting is from another chart under the visible one. I could not tell it was visible at the time)

Daniel Lipats · May 4th, 2008, 05:54 PM

I did have one that was a little better.

Software white balance left the image a bit blue, the other file is just a quick adjustment to white.

Régine Weinberg · May 24th, 2008, 08:30 AM

go on this page
http://www.rytterfalk.com/2008/03/07...-for-download/
and click left hand
on recent articles

The sigma DP1 using the same chip as the DSLR S14
with a wide angle glass you have to look at.
It is not high def but look at the footprint
the DP1 way smaller as any DSLR or anything else
and what can be done with.
Stunning
a bit rework with some clever software and miracle
have fun

it is so quiet her..the project is dead
whatt is going on friends.......

Biel Bestue · May 27th, 2008, 07:04 PM

i hope it doesn't die!

Jose A. Garcia · May 27th, 2008, 07:30 PM

Well... The project's not dead. It's only sleeping. I don't know about Daniel but I had to return my Sumix cam. I had to shoot a documentary in just two weeks and as the 12A2C was not yet ready for professional work I had to buy a HV20 plus Brevis adapter to get the image feeling I wanted. As I spent a lot of money on the whole equipment, I had to return the sumix to recover a bit.

The new software had many advantages compared to what we had before but it was still far from being ready for pro filmmaking. I don't know if StreamPix already supports this cam.

I haven't talked to Farhad for a long time now but I hope they're still working on the digital filmmaking area and I really hope they have something big in mind because by this time next year the RED Scarlet will be out with RAW 3K recording to flash cards. It will be hard to compete with it.

Biel Bestue · May 28th, 2008, 07:21 AM

the problem will come when only one company does the cameras we directors/cinematographers/producers use! i don't want to be paying RED for a thing i need for my work! i don't want them decide what price i have to pay to do my work! that's why competition between companies is good, even if one has to support a lower quality product!

Jose A. Garcia · May 28th, 2008, 09:46 AM

That's why I say I hope Sumix is working on something that's at least a basic filmmaking kit, but if you think about it, developing a FullHD or 2K standalone camera and place it below $3,000 so you can choose between Sumix and the Scarlet is not an easy task.

Let's face it, the RED One doesn't have any competitors so far and it's been out for more than a year. There're no S35mm 4K solutions near or below $17,500 (say $25,000 for a decent filmmaking kit) simply because it's too difficult to achieve.

It looks like the same will happen with the Scarlet. No other company offers a standalone 3K progresive RAW camera or anything near, let alone for just $3,000.

Who are their competitors? Silicon Imaging offers two cameras. The SI2K Mini depends on a pc to work, it's only 2K and it costs more than 4 times the Scarlet. The SI2K is near the price of the RED One and it offers half the resolution and half the sensor size. Dalsa offers 4K at very high prices. NOX offers a very filmlike image and 35mm DOF but again 2K and (I think) 3 times the price of the Scarlet. If those are the nearest competitors, then competition is over for now.

But don't worry. Prices on sensors and boards are going down dramatically. Competitors will come. It will take a little time but they will come.

And answering your post, Biel: What are you talking about? So far people like Panavision and Arri (with film) or Sony, Canon, Panasonic and JVC (with Pro video cams) DECIDED what you had to pay to do your work. And sometimes it was more than any of us could ever pay for. Did you ever consider shooting real cinema with your own camera before RED or SI came out? You don't like RED offering what no other company can offer yet? Fine, don't buy a Scarlet. Just think of what you would do if RED wasn't there and do it. Do you really think what they're doing is a bad thing? Do you consider having a 3K cinema camera for $3,000 a problem simply because there's no other option within that price range? I just don't get it.

Ok, the Scarlet is not here yet. We have one full year to see what other companies (including Sumix) can come up with.

May 4th, 2008, 02:41 PM	#384
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	Found some free time today to shoot some resolution charts to test the new lenses but I don't have the equipment or setup here at home to do it properly. I printed the test chart at 600dpi on an inkjet printer. Lit with a single 200w light. Lenses were both at about f/3 This probably wont be much help to anyone, but thought I would share them anyway. They turned out a lot darker then what I saw on my monitor. I may have more free time later this week to do it right. (the ghosting is from another chart under the visible one. I could not tell it was visible at the time) Attached Thumbnails

May 4th, 2008, 05:54 PM	#385
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	I did have one that was a little better. Software white balance left the image a bit blue, the other file is just a quick adjustment to white. Attached Thumbnails

May 24th, 2008, 08:30 AM	#386
Régine Weinberg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bordeaux, going to Bangkok, 2011 Posts: 232	please you have to look at go on this page http://www.rytterfalk.com/2008/03/07...-for-download/ and click left hand on recent articles The sigma DP1 using the same chip as the DSLR S14 with a wide angle glass you have to look at. It is not high def but look at the footprint the DP1 way smaller as any DSLR or anything else and what can be done with. Stunning a bit rework with some clever software and miracle have fun it is so quiet her..the project is dead whatt is going on friends.......

May 28th, 2008, 07:21 AM	#389
Biel Bestue Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 96	the problem will come when only one company does the cameras we directors/cinematographers/producers use! i don't want to be paying RED for a thing i need for my work! i don't want them decide what price i have to pay to do my work! that's why competition between companies is good, even if one has to support a lower quality product! Last edited by Biel Bestue; May 28th, 2008 at 09:33 AM.

April 23rd, 2008, 10:15 AM	#376
Solomon Chase Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Woodstock, Georgia Posts: 154	Farhad, did you get my e-mail? (I used "Send message via e-mail" on your forum profile)

April 23rd, 2008, 02:16 PM	#377
Farhad Towfiq Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: California Posts: 63	This HD seems just right for the PC-independednt (PC-hidden) camera http://www.hothardware.com/Articles/...iraptor_300GB/ Sorry that I was too busy last few days to answer some of the questions. Perhaps by next week new software for SMX-12A2C will be ready. Some features like 10 bit LUT will be released later. One of my duties is to manage expectations. If we can continue progress and avoid surprises then we are on right track. The PC-less camera will not be competing with Scarlet or other mass production cameras. We agreed to attempt this with Sumix engineers with this idea that this camera will be hand made in batches of 5-10 and later perhaps in larger numbers. Each batch will be made reliable with custom features and presets. The goal will be to make them absolutely reliable in production environment with no surprise. The strength will be in high dynamic range and low signal to noise ratio and also in tested and tried performance. Because of no fear about parts going obsolete we can put in any batch what performance we can get. We are not sure how we will price them. Perhaps the price must be set so the next batch will be justified.

April 23rd, 2008, 05:32 PM	#378
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Everything sounds so good it's hard to believe. So Farhad, you say the new software doesn't come with all the features you told us. Which ones are included and which are yet to come in new releases? And about the PC-less camera, we were talking about CF cards, just like the Scarlet, but as it's going to have less compression, that 300gb HDD sounds perfect for it. Anything else you can tell us about the cam?

April 27th, 2008, 10:14 AM	#379
Daniel Lipats Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 260	I just ran across SheerVideo codec. Looks like its a wavelet codec like CineForm. They make some interesting claims on their website such as "SheerVideo is the fastest codec in the world." Advertised as fast and nondestructive. SheerVideo is not free but its only $149. This will take at least $850 off the final camera price. Even more when you consider Prospect 2k($1,500) just to edit the captured cineform raw files. They have a demo, I have not tried it yet. http://www.bitjazz.com/en/products/sheervideo/

April 27th, 2008, 11:02 PM	#380
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	sheervideo is not wavelet. wavelet is always lossy, destructive compression. sheervideo is lossless. it also doesnt support bayer video, so it might not be as useful as cineform raw which has support for raw, luts, nle plugins, adjustable display/debayer options etc and a tested workflow.

April 28th, 2008, 07:59 AM	#381
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Noah, sorry to tell you but you are wrong. Wavelet can be lossy or LOSSLESS. If you don't believe my word just look into Jpeg2000. If you are applying a reversible transforn, and not doing any quantization on it, basically you get something which stores all the original information.Mathematically Lossless. Same thing goes for Block Based compression.If you are using a "reversible" transform and don't use quantization, you get a lossless codec.

April 29th, 2008, 06:28 AM	#382
Biel Bestue Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 96	here is a great explanation on the mtf issue: http://media.panavision.com/Screenin...ing_Part1.html how does sumix compete speaking on mtf? compared to say, 3ccd cam? maybe viper... or one chip RED?

May 1st, 2008, 11:22 PM	#383
Noah Yuan-Vogel Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York City Posts: 613	oh, juan, yes you are right. Sorry, I do not often hear of people using jpeg2000 for lossless compression but it is definitely available. I also have not heard of redcode or cineform supporting lossless compression. what i should have said was simply that sheervideo is lossless only as far as i know and that cineform does not support mathematically lossless as far as i know, so its a tough comparison. since from what i understand sheervideo only supports YUV and RGB and mathematically lossless (avg ~2.5:1 compression for live video?) it probably only saves very little if any space per second of video compared to uncompressed raw.

May 27th, 2008, 07:04 PM	#387
Biel Bestue Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 96	i hope it doesn't die!

May 27th, 2008, 07:30 PM	#388
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	Well... The project's not dead. It's only sleeping. I don't know about Daniel but I had to return my Sumix cam. I had to shoot a documentary in just two weeks and as the 12A2C was not yet ready for professional work I had to buy a HV20 plus Brevis adapter to get the image feeling I wanted. As I spent a lot of money on the whole equipment, I had to return the sumix to recover a bit. The new software had many advantages compared to what we had before but it was still far from being ready for pro filmmaking. I don't know if StreamPix already supports this cam. I haven't talked to Farhad for a long time now but I hope they're still working on the digital filmmaking area and I really hope they have something big in mind because by this time next year the RED Scarlet will be out with RAW 3K recording to flash cards. It will be hard to compete with it.

May 28th, 2008, 09:46 AM	#390
Jose A. Garcia Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sevilla (Spain) Posts: 439	That's why I say I hope Sumix is working on something that's at least a basic filmmaking kit, but if you think about it, developing a FullHD or 2K standalone camera and place it below $3,000 so you can choose between Sumix and the Scarlet is not an easy task. Let's face it, the RED One doesn't have any competitors so far and it's been out for more than a year. There're no S35mm 4K solutions near or below $17,500 (say $25,000 for a decent filmmaking kit) simply because it's too difficult to achieve. It looks like the same will happen with the Scarlet. No other company offers a standalone 3K progresive RAW camera or anything near, let alone for just $3,000. Who are their competitors? Silicon Imaging offers two cameras. The SI2K Mini depends on a pc to work, it's only 2K and it costs more than 4 times the Scarlet. The SI2K is near the price of the RED One and it offers half the resolution and half the sensor size. Dalsa offers 4K at very high prices. NOX offers a very filmlike image and 35mm DOF but again 2K and (I think) 3 times the price of the Scarlet. If those are the nearest competitors, then competition is over for now. But don't worry. Prices on sensors and boards are going down dramatically. Competitors will come. It will take a little time but they will come. And answering your post, Biel: What are you talking about? So far people like Panavision and Arri (with film) or Sony, Canon, Panasonic and JVC (with Pro video cams) DECIDED what you had to pay to do your work. And sometimes it was more than any of us could ever pay for. Did you ever consider shooting real cinema with your own camera before RED or SI came out? You don't like RED offering what no other company can offer yet? Fine, don't buy a Scarlet. Just think of what you would do if RED wasn't there and do it. Do you really think what they're doing is a bad thing? Do you consider having a 3K cinema camera for $3,000 a problem simply because there's no other option within that price range? I just don't get it. Ok, the Scarlet is not here yet. We have one full year to see what other companies (including Sumix) can come up with.