Homemade 35mm Adapter

J. Clayton Stansberry · December 8th, 2003, 02:31 PM

"Not sure I'd want to show up in front of a client with it, but for guerilla indie filmmaking, that kind of thinking is the bomb!"

Ok Barry, so, now here's another project. I think we need to get the molds of a CineAlta, cast a plastic box to conceal all of our rigging and then, wal-la, you have a "professional" looking camera and no one would know the lesser...

I can't wait to get started on the Agus35...just haven't had much time to actually do it, just to think about it.

Jim, I am very anxious to hear how the use of the CD player motor worked, and the use of the "black box." Please keep us updated!!!

Clay

Agus Casse · December 8th, 2003, 03:27 PM

Seens like this is the larger and most seen post in the history of dvinfo.net

Jean-Philippe Archibald · December 8th, 2003, 03:30 PM

Wow!!! Congratulations Agus! Your "invention" is fascinating for a lot of users! It could be interesting to have a top ten list of the most participatives threads on this board.

Joe Ryan · December 8th, 2003, 04:54 PM

hey agus, things are really moving along here, way to go.

just thinking out loud here, but maybe a couple simple design changes ( inspired by looking at an actual mini35, size and shape ) could help solve a couple of problems.

it seems to me that the gg in the mini35 is most likely the size of a silver dollar ( say 4 to 6 cm in diameter ) and most likely set at a 45 degree angle. if this is the case then you would be taking a picture of the image created on the side of the gg that it hits, instead of through the gg, seems this would make a big difference, in sharpness and luminance. the gg's so small you could go with glass instead of plastic, this also would be an improvement. this would also explain the vortex thing with the mini35, which i think we could get rid of by vibrating the gg instead of spinning (hmmm, where'd i get that idea, think orbital sander ). you would need one more mirror ( top of box/ unit ) and a relay lens ( maybe this would take care of the flipped image, not sure ) i think this could still be done on the cheap, and the unit could end up being smaller, well at least narrower.

i could be way off, but for the sake of experiment, i think i might have to give this a go, nothing to lose.

how's this sound, am i way off?

Agus Casse · December 8th, 2003, 05:01 PM

here's another Agus35 shoot test...

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/Agus35maseratitest.wmv

you cannot put the GG 45, cause one side will be in a larger distance from the lens, what you can do is put a mirror 45 degres just like a SLR camera, and then you put the GG and then a pentaprims that correct the image...

Fenn Jacob · December 8th, 2003, 05:58 PM

This is so fun!!! I love these little projects, the AGUS35 is really getting around! I am quite looking forward to getting started on mine--hopefully within the next week. There was some desire for clarification on lenses a few posts back. I am somewhat ignorant in the area myself, and I found this article somewhat helpful. It's nothing really special, but it might help someone else, too.

http://digigraphica.com/pick/slr.html

Thanks for all the info. I hope to soon find myself amoung the satisfied and proud owners of the highly acclaimed "Agus35".

Rob Hester · December 8th, 2003, 06:09 PM

(there must be a good reason why this wouldn't work)
What about just spinning the GG away and to the camera?

**POV of camera lens looking out**
[Motor]
|----------|
|---GG---|
|----------|
|----------|
[Motor]

**TOP View**
___
CAM|
CAM|
CAM|
CAM|
.|_|

__M__ //GG - from this view, GG spins clockwise (edges would be at 9 and 3 right now)

if you could spin the glass fast enough...would it create the same effect? maybe not...think of anything waving fast enough - it blurs and you cannot tell whether it is there or not at that instant...as long as you keep the shutter speed down? (which you would have to anyways because of light issues and trying to avoid seeing the grain on the glass. i am sure it is totally wrong...

another idea I had was to spin the glass from a wheel attached to the edge of the circle...think a polarizer...you can adjust it by turning it..but it stays in place the entire time right?
this might create the vortex effect people talk about with mini35...if someone could actually explain WHAT that is that would be great

if these ideas fail I am going to look into creating a sturdy agus35 of my own in the near future

congrats Agus!
Rob

Agus Casse · December 8th, 2003, 06:47 PM

seens too complicated and dont know if it would work, remember that the ideas is to keep it simple and make it simple to build, another thing is the vibration....

vibration is your worst enemy, cause it will be transfered to the camera and you will get bad footage. now... i thought of another way to make the whole box really small, but that will be in the commercial version... :)

Matt Gottshalk · December 8th, 2003, 07:19 PM

Well I talked to my brother, who is a CNC machinist...and here is what he said:

"The camera rig doesn't look to hard to make after a little research on how it works. From what I can tell it is a rig that holds a video-camera in back of a special optical lens to record destorted images.It also looks full adjustable - I am guessing for different positions for what you would be capturing.

I think the best thing to do is get as much info as possible to see what and how the camera has to be mounted to the lense and what the adjustments do to the picture being captured.We can talk about it more over the phone or at christmas time. "

So I think if I can explain to him in non-video terms what I'm looking for, we can build a SOLID one out of metal and use REAL GG, and some rails.... for ALOT less than the real thing....

Cool!

Mike Perkin · December 8th, 2003, 07:41 PM

Agus,
Everything with my adapter seems to be working out fine, except
that the image projected onto the cd is very dark. Is this normal and what can be done about it?
Thanks Mike Perkin

Agus Casse · December 8th, 2003, 08:35 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Perkin : Agus,
Everything with my adapter seems to be working out fine, except
that the image projected onto the cd is very dark. Is this normal and what can be done about it?
Thanks Mike Perkin -->>>

Be sure that the lens aperture is fully open, you will lose some light, like 5 steps, so indoor at night you will need to light up a lot... also check the max aperture size of the lens, mine is 1:2 and i get no vigneting and i have plenty of light... another thing is that the plastic GG will lose a lot of light as well.

Ryan Henry · December 8th, 2003, 10:54 PM

Hi everyone, this is my first post here and this thread was the reason I joined!

I just started working on an Agus35 this evening but I'm concerned about wobble in the CD. I did my best to get it running smoothly when spun by the motor, but couldn't get it "flat" - the image tends to move. At slow speed it's very noticable and when spun up it makes things rather blurry. Has anyone else experienced this? Or even better, found a solution?

Also, there seems to be some pretty good gyroscopic force at play. My disc is spinning quite fast (the disc came loose from the motor once and took off across the room, bumping into the wall and staying upright and spinning for several more seconds). Has gyroscopic force been a problem for anyone?

And last but definately not least - has anyone attempted to properly backfocus their lense? I find it VERY handy when the focus marks on the lense match what's being focused on the film (or ground glass, in this case). It's a pretty precise thing (don't remeber the distance off hand) but I was wondering if anyone hand any tips on that.

So far it seems like a good project. I played around a bit with a 16mm lense and it was exciting! I have to go shopping for some 35mm lenses tomorrow :-)

Agus Casse · December 8th, 2003, 11:46 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ryan Henry : Hi everyone, this is my first post here and this thread was the reason I joined!

I just started working on an Agus35 this evening but I'm concerned about wobble in the CD. I did my best to get it running smoothly when spun by the motor, but couldn't get it "flat" - the image tends to move. At slow speed it's very noticable and when spun up it makes things rather blurry. Has anyone else experienced this? Or even better, found a solution?

Also, there seems to be some pretty good gyroscopic force at play. My disc is spinning quite fast (the disc came loose from the motor once and took off across the room, bumping into the wall and staying upright and spinning for several more seconds). Has gyroscopic force been a problem for anyone?

-->>>

Well about the cd coming loose and taking a spin through the room happened a lot to me :)... actually i broke 2 GG in the begining stages...

Ok, the problem is that you don have a good platform for the cd, so it comes and go... that is the hardest part, but seen like other people have been able to correct this with zero vibration using a cd player piece.

Congrats dude, and now that you have join there are also so many hot topics i this webpage that you will enjoy.

Bob Hart · December 9th, 2003, 01:35 AM

Given that ideas of manufacturing for profit or reward are starting to appear, it might be time for everyone to consider things legal such as intellectual property, patents, the possible infringement thereof and another perennial U.S. favorite, product liability.

The makers of the Mini35 and any existing competing products are probably not going to become injured if people home-brew by reverse design, their own versions for private use.

The makers of the Mini35 might even like the idea because videographers having tasted the fruits of a home-brew setup, might then hit a wall in terms of that last level of reliability/performance/perfection.

They might then buy the real thing when they need to perform consistently, meet deadlines and/or
manage to raise the price of the real thing.

However if a commercial entity evolves and eats into market share, you can be sure there will be
interest. If the point is reached where the costs of losing a patent infringement action become less than the lost revenue stream, then that interest can be expected to become active and interventional.

Stand-out key issues already are the number “35” in the applied context to describe the devices and the design concept. Though the Mini35 builder employs commonplace engineering and optical principles, the unique application and innovative combination of these, may constitute distinct intellectual property, sufficiently convincing for a court to decide to confer protection and relief.

If the Mini35 people are smart, they might pre-empt the marketplace with a strip version of their own product or a short-form kit of essential optical elements for home-brewers.

Agus Casse · December 9th, 2003, 02:29 AM

<==If the Mini35 people are smart, they might pre-empt the marketplace with a strip version of their own product or a short-form kit of essential optical elements for home-brewers. ==>

THat s the whole idea, to brake up the market and make it more accesible, just like the Ford T

Yeah,

we are all awared, and what is best, we will make it, and we will make also a comercial version, just like the chinese copy all and sell it cheap for everybody, we will make a homemade version of it.

I believe that the world is a like a big jungle, eat or be eaten, so in this case, we dont want to spend 12k - 16k in a mini 35 completed system, we want to spend 30$ bucks min... and many people are willing to spend 800 bucks in a comercial version, that let me mentioned, i never saw a mini35, neither knew or exactly know how it works... only the concept... that it is a camera obscura, and they have a spining GG, yeah... you can reach to that point and say "we need to shake or move this" as soon as you build the adapter and you see the grain...

So in conclusion, i will leave the germans to their bussines, which they are earning millions, me.... i will make it for free for all those who doesnt have money, and are poor indie filmakers like me... and for all others that want to spend an affordable price for a well build adapter... but dont have the money for a mini35, cause come on... lets be realistic, it cost a fortune !!!

Also, anyone no happy with this project should go and spend those 12-15k, cause either you like it or not.. the project is out, there are people building it, and more and more each day... just like the day that someone relase the first mp3, (well, thinking big...but) this is the same thing. Now with a camera less than 500bucks you will get DOF of 35mm cameras... which will be useful for those that in some future will want to film with real 35mm but cant afford the studies for it.. this is the perfect training... of course for free and with amazing video quality.

Thanks for everybody who support this project, and hey...this thread have been viewed more than 10,000 TIMES !!!...

December 8th, 2003, 02:31 PM	#196
J. Clayton Stansberry Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 316	"Not sure I'd want to show up in front of a client with it, but for guerilla indie filmmaking, that kind of thinking is the bomb!" Ok Barry, so, now here's another project. I think we need to get the molds of a CineAlta, cast a plastic box to conceal all of our rigging and then, wal-la, you have a "professional" looking camera and no one would know the lesser... I can't wait to get started on the Agus35...just haven't had much time to actually do it, just to think about it. Jim, I am very anxious to hear how the use of the CD player motor worked, and the use of the "black box." Please keep us updated!!! Clay __________________ I understand everything about nothing.

December 8th, 2003, 03:30 PM	#198
Jean-Philippe Archibald Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Saguenay, Québec, Canada Posts: 1,051	Wow!!! Congratulations Agus! Your "invention" is fascinating for a lot of users! It could be interesting to have a top ten list of the most participatives threads on this board. __________________ Jean-Philippe Archibald http://www.jparchibald.com - http://www.vimeo.com/jparchib

December 8th, 2003, 04:54 PM	#199
Joe Ryan Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Calgary, AB, CANADA Posts: 36	agus35 hey agus, things are really moving along here, way to go. just thinking out loud here, but maybe a couple simple design changes ( inspired by looking at an actual mini35, size and shape ) could help solve a couple of problems. it seems to me that the gg in the mini35 is most likely the size of a silver dollar ( say 4 to 6 cm in diameter ) and most likely set at a 45 degree angle. if this is the case then you would be taking a picture of the image created on the side of the gg that it hits, instead of through the gg, seems this would make a big difference, in sharpness and luminance. the gg's so small you could go with glass instead of plastic, this also would be an improvement. this would also explain the vortex thing with the mini35, which i think we could get rid of by vibrating the gg instead of spinning (hmmm, where'd i get that idea, think orbital sander ). you would need one more mirror ( top of box/ unit ) and a relay lens ( maybe this would take care of the flipped image, not sure ) i think this could still be done on the cheap, and the unit could end up being smaller, well at least narrower. i could be way off, but for the sake of experiment, i think i might have to give this a go, nothing to lose. how's this sound, am i way off?

December 8th, 2003, 06:09 PM	#202
Rob Hester Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 113	(there must be a good reason why this wouldn't work) What about just spinning the GG away and to the camera? POV of camera lens looking out [Motor] \|----------\| \|---GG---\| \|----------\| \|----------\| [Motor] TOP View ___ CAM\| CAM\| CAM\| CAM\| .\|_\| __M__ //GG - from this view, GG spins clockwise (edges would be at 9 and 3 right now) if you could spin the glass fast enough...would it create the same effect? maybe not...think of anything waving fast enough - it blurs and you cannot tell whether it is there or not at that instant...as long as you keep the shutter speed down? (which you would have to anyways because of light issues and trying to avoid seeing the grain on the glass. i am sure it is totally wrong... another idea I had was to spin the glass from a wheel attached to the edge of the circle...think a polarizer...you can adjust it by turning it..but it stays in place the entire time right? this might create the vortex effect people talk about with mini35...if someone could actually explain WHAT that is that would be great if these ideas fail I am going to look into creating a sturdy agus35 of my own in the near future congrats Agus! Rob __________________ JVC DV3000U - 30P (non-interlaced) capture on a budget - tests@http://robvideo.netfirms.com

December 8th, 2003, 03:27 PM	#197
Agus Casse Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Guatemala Posts: 322	Seens like this is the larger and most seen post in the history of dvinfo.net

December 8th, 2003, 05:01 PM	#200
Agus Casse Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Guatemala Posts: 322	here's another Agus35 shoot test... http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/Agus35maseratitest.wmv you cannot put the GG 45, cause one side will be in a larger distance from the lens, what you can do is put a mirror 45 degres just like a SLR camera, and then you put the GG and then a pentaprims that correct the image...

December 8th, 2003, 05:58 PM	#201
Fenn Jacob New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Thatcher UT Posts: 14	This is so fun!!! I love these little projects, the AGUS35 is really getting around! I am quite looking forward to getting started on mine--hopefully within the next week. There was some desire for clarification on lenses a few posts back. I am somewhat ignorant in the area myself, and I found this article somewhat helpful. It's nothing really special, but it might help someone else, too. http://digigraphica.com/pick/slr.html Thanks for all the info. I hope to soon find myself amoung the satisfied and proud owners of the highly acclaimed "Agus35".

December 8th, 2003, 06:47 PM	#203
Agus Casse Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Guatemala Posts: 322	seens too complicated and dont know if it would work, remember that the ideas is to keep it simple and make it simple to build, another thing is the vibration.... vibration is your worst enemy, cause it will be transfered to the camera and you will get bad footage. now... i thought of another way to make the whole box really small, but that will be in the commercial version... :)

December 8th, 2003, 07:19 PM	#204
Matt Gottshalk Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Potomac Falls, VA Posts: 215	Well I talked to my brother, who is a CNC machinist...and here is what he said: "The camera rig doesn't look to hard to make after a little research on how it works. From what I can tell it is a rig that holds a video-camera in back of a special optical lens to record destorted images.It also looks full adjustable - I am guessing for different positions for what you would be capturing. I think the best thing to do is get as much info as possible to see what and how the camera has to be mounted to the lense and what the adjustments do to the picture being captured.We can talk about it more over the phone or at christmas time. " So I think if I can explain to him in non-video terms what I'm looking for, we can build a SOLID one out of metal and use REAL GG, and some rails.... for ALOT less than the real thing.... Cool!

December 8th, 2003, 07:41 PM	#205
Mike Perkin New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: emmaus pennslyvania Posts: 10	Agus, Everything with my adapter seems to be working out fine, except that the image projected onto the cd is very dark. Is this normal and what can be done about it? Thanks Mike Perkin

December 8th, 2003, 08:35 PM	#206
Agus Casse Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Guatemala Posts: 322	<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Perkin : Agus, Everything with my adapter seems to be working out fine, except that the image projected onto the cd is very dark. Is this normal and what can be done about it? Thanks Mike Perkin -->>> Be sure that the lens aperture is fully open, you will lose some light, like 5 steps, so indoor at night you will need to light up a lot... also check the max aperture size of the lens, mine is 1:2 and i get no vigneting and i have plenty of light... another thing is that the plastic GG will lose a lot of light as well.

December 8th, 2003, 10:54 PM	#207
Ryan Henry New Boot Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Marquette, Michigan, US Posts: 14	Hi everyone, this is my first post here and this thread was the reason I joined! I just started working on an Agus35 this evening but I'm concerned about wobble in the CD. I did my best to get it running smoothly when spun by the motor, but couldn't get it "flat" - the image tends to move. At slow speed it's very noticable and when spun up it makes things rather blurry. Has anyone else experienced this? Or even better, found a solution? Also, there seems to be some pretty good gyroscopic force at play. My disc is spinning quite fast (the disc came loose from the motor once and took off across the room, bumping into the wall and staying upright and spinning for several more seconds). Has gyroscopic force been a problem for anyone? And last but definately not least - has anyone attempted to properly backfocus their lense? I find it VERY handy when the focus marks on the lense match what's being focused on the film (or ground glass, in this case). It's a pretty precise thing (don't remeber the distance off hand) but I was wondering if anyone hand any tips on that. So far it seems like a good project. I played around a bit with a 16mm lense and it was exciting! I have to go shopping for some 35mm lenses tomorrow :-)

December 8th, 2003, 11:46 PM	#208
Agus Casse Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Guatemala Posts: 322	<<<-- Originally posted by Ryan Henry : Hi everyone, this is my first post here and this thread was the reason I joined! I just started working on an Agus35 this evening but I'm concerned about wobble in the CD. I did my best to get it running smoothly when spun by the motor, but couldn't get it "flat" - the image tends to move. At slow speed it's very noticable and when spun up it makes things rather blurry. Has anyone else experienced this? Or even better, found a solution? Also, there seems to be some pretty good gyroscopic force at play. My disc is spinning quite fast (the disc came loose from the motor once and took off across the room, bumping into the wall and staying upright and spinning for several more seconds). Has gyroscopic force been a problem for anyone? -->>> Well about the cd coming loose and taking a spin through the room happened a lot to me :)... actually i broke 2 GG in the begining stages... Ok, the problem is that you don have a good platform for the cd, so it comes and go... that is the hardest part, but seen like other people have been able to correct this with zero vibration using a cd player piece. Congrats dude, and now that you have join there are also so many hot topics i this webpage that you will enjoy.

December 9th, 2003, 01:35 AM	#209
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,476	Given that ideas of manufacturing for profit or reward are starting to appear, it might be time for everyone to consider things legal such as intellectual property, patents, the possible infringement thereof and another perennial U.S. favorite, product liability. The makers of the Mini35 and any existing competing products are probably not going to become injured if people home-brew by reverse design, their own versions for private use. The makers of the Mini35 might even like the idea because videographers having tasted the fruits of a home-brew setup, might then hit a wall in terms of that last level of reliability/performance/perfection. They might then buy the real thing when they need to perform consistently, meet deadlines and/or manage to raise the price of the real thing. However if a commercial entity evolves and eats into market share, you can be sure there will be interest. If the point is reached where the costs of losing a patent infringement action become less than the lost revenue stream, then that interest can be expected to become active and interventional. Stand-out key issues already are the number “35” in the applied context to describe the devices and the design concept. Though the Mini35 builder employs commonplace engineering and optical principles, the unique application and innovative combination of these, may constitute distinct intellectual property, sufficiently convincing for a court to decide to confer protection and relief. If the Mini35 people are smart, they might pre-empt the marketplace with a strip version of their own product or a short-form kit of essential optical elements for home-brewers.

December 9th, 2003, 02:29 AM	#210
Agus Casse Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Guatemala Posts: 322	<==If the Mini35 people are smart, they might pre-empt the marketplace with a strip version of their own product or a short-form kit of essential optical elements for home-brewers. ==> THat s the whole idea, to brake up the market and make it more accesible, just like the Ford T Yeah, we are all awared, and what is best, we will make it, and we will make also a comercial version, just like the chinese copy all and sell it cheap for everybody, we will make a homemade version of it. I believe that the world is a like a big jungle, eat or be eaten, so in this case, we dont want to spend 12k - 16k in a mini 35 completed system, we want to spend 30$ bucks min... and many people are willing to spend 800 bucks in a comercial version, that let me mentioned, i never saw a mini35, neither knew or exactly know how it works... only the concept... that it is a camera obscura, and they have a spining GG, yeah... you can reach to that point and say "we need to shake or move this" as soon as you build the adapter and you see the grain... So in conclusion, i will leave the germans to their bussines, which they are earning millions, me.... i will make it for free for all those who doesnt have money, and are poor indie filmakers like me... and for all others that want to spend an affordable price for a well build adapter... but dont have the money for a mini35, cause come on... lets be realistic, it cost a fortune !!! Also, anyone no happy with this project should go and spend those 12-15k, cause either you like it or not.. the project is out, there are people building it, and more and more each day... just like the day that someone relase the first mp3, (well, thinking big...but) this is the same thing. Now with a camera less than 500bucks you will get DOF of 35mm cameras... which will be useful for those that in some future will want to film with real 35mm but cant afford the studies for it.. this is the perfect training... of course for free and with amazing video quality. Thanks for everybody who support this project, and hey...this thread have been viewed more than 10,000 TIMES !!!...