High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

Phil Stone · May 19th, 2007, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscar Spier

Here is a small version of the 'documentary' I made in France. While my girlfriend was working all day in the garden making a path.... I was testing all aspects of the Elphel. Yes, between some shots I helped her a bit, but filmmaking comes first, right?

This short film also proves you can synch a separate audio recording, using the old method with a clap board (in this case I just clapped my hands and said the take number, the same as the Elphel output filename)
I used a portable minidisc recorder and it really worked fine.
I also used the wax adapter (which really needs to be rebuild to get rid of soft edges), and a 'big' Panasonic TV lens (notice some telephoto close ups of the flowers).

The clip is reduced by half in resolution to upload, and is just a rough cut without color adjustments and some faults in the editing. I'll probably upload the final version at normal resolution of 1600x900 pixels and less compression.
I'll post some stills at full size soon.

You can download the (54MB) file here: http://dvinfo.it-now.org/RomainSurMeuse2.avi (it's in Xvid compression)

That was really nice! Looks nothing like anything Ive seen on HDV thats for sure! Had a real rustic feel.

Matteo Pozzi · May 20th, 2007, 03:58 AM

good job man I think that this is a very good presentation of the power of this project! :-)
well done

Odd Nydren · May 22nd, 2007, 07:13 AM

Real cool work Oscar! I look forward to the hi-res one...

Can't wait until the 353 works without a laptop :)

//O.

Oscar Spierenburg · May 22nd, 2007, 07:52 AM

Thanks, I'll upload the 1600x900 version this week.
It's not so bad to use a laptop. The only thing that slows things down is the software, but then again, only for setting things up. When you're ready to shoot, you can just start and stop recording. Better software could use a function to auto-name the takes of course. That would again speed thing up.
Besides that, you'll always need to shoot from a tripod when you have a camera with a rolling shutter, and the laptop mount I made on the tripod makes it very easy to use. Everything you need is on the tripod.

Here is a picture of the current setup. (I'll make some detailed pictures soon)
http://community.elphel.com/pictures...35mmTripod.jpg

Matteo Pozzi · May 22nd, 2007, 01:27 PM

thanks for the image oscar
I've seen that you use a dell inspiron 6400 I think
did you use 7200 rpm hdd!? nvidia or ati video card!?
have you got any trouble with the knoppix live cd?
many thanks
Matteo

Zsolt Hegyi · May 25th, 2007, 02:27 AM

Hello!

Unfortunately I cannot wait more for the 353. I have a documentary project to start in June so neither I can wait for more nor I'll have the summer to spend on camera development. It's a pity because renting a camera for long term certainly costs more and it won't produce the quality I expected from the would-be-lossless Elphel. I really wanted it, I had projects to do with it but we just run out of time. Good luck for the rest of you - I might look in sometimes and see how things are going.

Bye,
Zsolt

PS: If somebody's interested, here's the BloodSimple(TM) codec I wrote and experimented with. It creates a bitstream directly from the bayer input, always taking the difference of pixels as input. It works best if we use the algorithm in interframe mode, which means that we calculate the difference of pixels from the same coordinate of the previous frame. This of course needs that whole frame in memory.

An output sample always begins with a one bit flag (F) which tells the decoder if the following sample has the same bit length (F=0) as the previous one (a length of P) or it is greater with G bits (F=1). This G constant can be set according to the input stream and it will tell the contrast ratio of the generated images: with a T bit input, following pixels usually don't have more difference than T/2 bits. Visually lossless is around T/3 but it can be calculated explicitly in a pre-encoding step if needed. (By having the motion blur of the 1/24sec exposure, the blur caused by fast pans won't cause quality loss in the encoder as it would do with shorter exposure times.) If F=0, the decoder uses the previous P bit length but if the sample's most significant L bits are zero then the next sample will be taken with P-L bits (if that sample's F=0). The encoder knows this and if the next sample's length is greater than P-L then it sets F=1. L is usually set to T/4.

With sample videos (no real bayer input, only some grayscale mjpeg stuff with some artifical noise added) it has produced a 2:1 average ratio which means 2.5:1 with low freq content and 1.5:1 with high freq content (ie. trees with leaves with the sky as background). Because the code is so simple one can use several module instances in an fpga, for example, one for each pixel in a 20x20 block (or whatever the Elphel uses), working in paralell with only the memory bandwith setting the performance limits. However, with a smaller no. of instances it may fit beside the theora module; altough two output streams aren't supported yet. And it's really easy to implement it in verilog which can be a concern if somebody's not an expert like Andrey...

Odd Nydren · May 25th, 2007, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zsolt Hegyi

Hello!
Unfortunately I cannot wait more for the 353. I have a documentary project to start in June...

Hi Zsolt,

Have you tried just calling Andrey?

Last thing we heard he was supposed to have a 353 with hdd support up and running on linuxtag. (30th of may - 2nd of june) In other words..in just a few days!

..so how about calling him and just ask to see if you can buy or borrow (he has generously offered access to cameras if you develop in the past) a pre production model for developing the codec? Worst thing that could happen is that he says no ;)

Oh I just thought I would ask.

If you really feel there is not time - then good luck with the documentary!! ..and we hope to see you drop by here in the future :)

good luck

//O.

Andrey Filippov · May 25th, 2007, 07:47 AM

Yes, it is coming closer and we should have some interesting hardware at LinuxTag in a few days. And we are already shipping 353 cameras (in basic configuration - just 10353+10338 boards).

Matteo Pozzi · May 25th, 2007, 09:37 AM

hi andrey
can you tell me how long is the 30-pin flex cable connector (J1) that connect the camera to the sensor board!?
is it possible to buy and use a custom one or come soldered ?
I'm looking for design a camera case in "reverse mode" to reduce space so the sensor will be positioned on the back of the case and not in front.

many thanks

Andrey Filippov · May 25th, 2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matteo Pozzi

hi andrey
can you tell me how long is the 30-pin flex cable connector (J1) that connect the camera to the sensor board!?
is it possible to buy and use a custom one or come soldered ?
I'm looking for design a camera case in "reverse mode" to reduce space so the sensor will be positioned on the back of the case and not in front.
many thanks

Normally we use 1" and 2" cables, with previous models I tried up to 12" one. THe 353 has a flexible clock phase adjustment, so it is possible to adjust it to match data on longer cables if you'll have any problems.

Up to 8" are in stock at Digi-Key, longer need special order, I believe.

Wayne Morellini · May 26th, 2007, 01:23 AM

Zolt, consider this fro your documentary in the case for the Elphel:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=94079

It will probably cost similar to the Elphel to setup, plus the adaptor/mounts, computer case etc, could be shared with the Elphel. So, basically you land up paying for thread cost of the Intensity card, cable, and the Canon HV20 over the Elphel (unless you want to use the cineform codec). The Canon produces a somewhat silky image, and offers uncompressed/low compressed 8 bit at least.

Wayne Morellini · May 26th, 2007, 01:28 AM

I might have posted this before:

http://dailytech.com/Major+Lowlight+...rticle7401.htm

Robert Schiebel · May 26th, 2007, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrey Filippov

Yes, it is coming closer and we should have some interesting hardware at LinuxTag in a few days. And we are already shipping 353 cameras (in basic configuration - just 10353+10338 boards).

Hi, I was long time in the background. But the opportunity is favorable now to see the camera. I will be on Saturday at LinuxTag and if the basic parts works well, than I try to get it. In my application as "sports-cam" are just 353+338 boards, one CF Card and accu required. The necessary modifications/adaptions wants I to make (with an additional print). The next step is, to design a small case in Inventor-3D. So if you wonder whether I am crazy, because fast motion an rolling shutter doesn't match? Right, I solve it by lower resulution but with higher framerate. Which is possible, we will see in Berlin.
Robert

Wayne Morellini · May 26th, 2007, 06:39 AM

So, blood simple is an simple inter 2 frame codec, no fancy stuff. This is basically the same as what Juan was working on, good effort. You could still work on it, and use the Elphel for another project. How far advanced is Blood Simple software code and fpga, this could be used for ant bayer camera around here as well?

Wayne Morellini · May 29th, 2007, 08:36 PM

Here are a few more sensors worth considering:

http://www.altasens.com/AltaSensBits...essRelease.pdf

http://www.altasens.com/ap7.html
http://www.altasens.com/ap5.html
http://www.altasens.com/ap2.html

http://www.altasens.com/Products%208M.htm

The 3372 and 5262 loom interesting for 1/3inch sensors using the new technology. Pity they don't have 1/2inch, 2/3rd inch, or 4/3rd versions yet.

May 22nd, 2007, 07:13 AM	#678
Odd Nydren Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 88	Film... Real cool work Oscar! I look forward to the hi-res one... Can't wait until the 353 works without a laptop :) //O.

May 25th, 2007, 02:27 AM	#681
Zsolt Hegyi Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Hungary Posts: 59	quit Hello! Unfortunately I cannot wait more for the 353. I have a documentary project to start in June so neither I can wait for more nor I'll have the summer to spend on camera development. It's a pity because renting a camera for long term certainly costs more and it won't produce the quality I expected from the would-be-lossless Elphel. I really wanted it, I had projects to do with it but we just run out of time. Good luck for the rest of you - I might look in sometimes and see how things are going. Bye, Zsolt PS: If somebody's interested, here's the BloodSimple(TM) codec I wrote and experimented with. It creates a bitstream directly from the bayer input, always taking the difference of pixels as input. It works best if we use the algorithm in interframe mode, which means that we calculate the difference of pixels from the same coordinate of the previous frame. This of course needs that whole frame in memory. An output sample always begins with a one bit flag (F) which tells the decoder if the following sample has the same bit length (F=0) as the previous one (a length of P) or it is greater with G bits (F=1). This G constant can be set according to the input stream and it will tell the contrast ratio of the generated images: with a T bit input, following pixels usually don't have more difference than T/2 bits. Visually lossless is around T/3 but it can be calculated explicitly in a pre-encoding step if needed. (By having the motion blur of the 1/24sec exposure, the blur caused by fast pans won't cause quality loss in the encoder as it would do with shorter exposure times.) If F=0, the decoder uses the previous P bit length but if the sample's most significant L bits are zero then the next sample will be taken with P-L bits (if that sample's F=0). The encoder knows this and if the next sample's length is greater than P-L then it sets F=1. L is usually set to T/4. With sample videos (no real bayer input, only some grayscale mjpeg stuff with some artifical noise added) it has produced a 2:1 average ratio which means 2.5:1 with low freq content and 1.5:1 with high freq content (ie. trees with leaves with the sky as background). Because the code is so simple one can use several module instances in an fpga, for example, one for each pixel in a 20x20 block (or whatever the Elphel uses), working in paralell with only the memory bandwith setting the performance limits. However, with a smaller no. of instances it may fit beside the theora module; altough two output streams aren't supported yet. And it's really easy to implement it in verilog which can be a concern if somebody's not an expert like Andrey... Last edited by Zsolt Hegyi; May 25th, 2007 at 03:01 AM.

May 26th, 2007, 01:28 AM	#687
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I might have posted this before: http://dailytech.com/Major+Lowlight+...rticle7401.htm Last edited by Wayne Morellini; May 26th, 2007 at 01:46 AM. Reason: Re-Edit: Mistake, deleted.

May 29th, 2007, 08:36 PM	#690
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	New Altasens sensors for surveillance, HDV use, and 8Mp etc with extended latitude, Here are a few more sensors worth considering: http://www.altasens.com/AltaSensBits...essRelease.pdf http://www.altasens.com/ap7.html http://www.altasens.com/ap5.html http://www.altasens.com/ap2.html http://www.altasens.com/Products%208M.htm The 3372 and 5262 loom interesting for 1/3inch sensors using the new technology. Pity they don't have 1/2inch, 2/3rd inch, or 4/3rd versions yet.

May 20th, 2007, 03:58 AM	#677
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	good job man I think that this is a very good presentation of the power of this project! :-) well done

May 22nd, 2007, 07:52 AM	#679
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	Thanks, I'll upload the 1600x900 version this week. It's not so bad to use a laptop. The only thing that slows things down is the software, but then again, only for setting things up. When you're ready to shoot, you can just start and stop recording. Better software could use a function to auto-name the takes of course. That would again speed thing up. Besides that, you'll always need to shoot from a tripod when you have a camera with a rolling shutter, and the laptop mount I made on the tripod makes it very easy to use. Everything you need is on the tripod. Here is a picture of the current setup. (I'll make some detailed pictures soon) http://community.elphel.com/pictures...35mmTripod.jpg

May 22nd, 2007, 01:27 PM	#680
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	thanks for the image oscar I've seen that you use a dell inspiron 6400 I think did you use 7200 rpm hdd!? nvidia or ati video card!? have you got any trouble with the knoppix live cd? many thanks Matteo

May 25th, 2007, 07:47 AM	#683
Andrey Filippov Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Magna, Utah Posts: 215	Yes, it is coming closer and we should have some interesting hardware at LinuxTag in a few days. And we are already shipping 353 cameras (in basic configuration - just 10353+10338 boards).

May 25th, 2007, 09:37 AM	#684
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	hi andrey can you tell me how long is the 30-pin flex cable connector (J1) that connect the camera to the sensor board!? is it possible to buy and use a custom one or come soldered ? I'm looking for design a camera case in "reverse mode" to reduce space so the sensor will be positioned on the back of the case and not in front. many thanks

May 26th, 2007, 01:23 AM	#686
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Zolt, consider this fro your documentary in the case for the Elphel: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=94079 It will probably cost similar to the Elphel to setup, plus the adaptor/mounts, computer case etc, could be shared with the Elphel. So, basically you land up paying for thread cost of the Intensity card, cable, and the Canon HV20 over the Elphel (unless you want to use the cineform codec). The Canon produces a somewhat silky image, and offers uncompressed/low compressed 8 bit at least.

May 26th, 2007, 06:39 AM	#689
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	So, blood simple is an simple inter 2 frame codec, no fancy stuff. This is basically the same as what Juan was working on, good effort. You could still work on it, and use the Elphel for another project. How far advanced is Blood Simple software code and fpga, this could be used for ant bayer camera around here as well?