Firestore is good as is the nNovia version. nNovia has analog inputs.

Another option might be a notebook with big clean hard drive and a copy of Serious Magic DVRack. It will give you Waveform monitoring from your firewire (a true representation of your digital signal levels) and it is a capture program with monitoring.

I have, use and really like the DSR-11 but would love to get a DSR-20 or DSR-25.

A last option for you is to look for a gently used Sony DSR-20. The DSR-20 was killed off in favor of the DSR-25 but the older 20 has a character output that will allow you to make TC window dubs for producers to take home and have the Time Code on their VHS tape.

This is a great way to pre-edit. Give the producer/director a copy of the raw tapes with a TC window. They can choose their cuts at home and simply bring you a shot list. Saves you from shuttleing through 10 tapes with them breathing down your neck.

Just ideas,

Sean McHenry

To monitor audio through the computer while logging in 4.5, open your capture preset, click the "Advanced" button under QuickTime Audio Settings and turn the speaker on. I learned this in 3, so I'm sure it works there as well.

ahh, thanks! I never played around with the preset "edit" function. Now I don't have to bother with the headphones.

It is at this point in the deliberations that I usually mention the alternative of a JVC DV/S-VHS combination VCR.
My HR-DVS3U is still working without fault, has a fine relationship with my computer and cost only $700. Their "pro" version of this model will play back DVCAM and is priced a few hundred dollars more. If you only need to play DV recordings into a computer, its limitations in editing features shouldn't be of much concern. I got this deck just as a standby for my more advanced Sony DV VCR, but it's so much easier to use for simple playback and recording, that the Sony just sits there, neglected.

I just called up B&H to buy a JVC GR-270 ($260) to use as a cheap deck. I told the salesman about what I intended to use the deck for. He said that I'd have problems using this JVC cheapo cam with video shot on another brand's camera, a Canon XL1s for example. Something about tracking errors.

Does anyone have an experience with this? Is this a real concern or a way to sell expensive decks?

Thanks.

This is a case of a sales technique called "broad generalization" and "sweeping sterotypes" that are ancdotal at best and certainly not based upon any facts.

He should be embarrassed for making such incorrect statements. Especially when representing one of the industry's best known and respected badges for top notch sales and service.

The chap you were speaking to has just simply never worked with dv. A camera when equipped with firewire will playback a dv25 file into a pc. Period. That's it's job.

6 years and counting for my el cheapo cam being used as a deck...

I agree - nothing more to say really :)

Thanks, guys.

I use the JVC at work too, as well as a Sony Video Walkman. Both are great choices.

Ummm - well maybe.

I don't know the JVC product line at all but I do know digital tape drives from 9 years in the industry. Think of it as the industrial cousin of DV - tens of Terabytes of data being read and written every night Vs: tens of Gigabytes a couple of times a week in the DV world.

It is very possible to have tracking errors that would make a tape unreadable between one device writing a tape and another device reading the tape (notice I didn't say likely, I said possible).

Tracking errors occur when the device reading the tape can't track the digital data written to the tape. This could be due to a problem with the device that wrote it (say it wrote it at the extreme edge of the legal data area and/or it was writing a weak signal to the tape), it could be a problem with the tape, or it could be a problem with the reading device, or it could be a stack-up combination problem. Say a marginal device writing and a margina device reading - normally neither has a problem but if you use them both in the same project your world is going to end.

In any event tracking errors can and do happen. I have seen cases where people wrote tapes that could *only* be read by the device that wrote them due to the particular head alignment issues with that device. Try to read the tape anywhere else and it was a total failure, mount the tape back in the device that wrote it and everything worked great.

Within the tape industry this characteristic is called "interchangability" - meaning the ability to write the tape in one device and read it in another. Interchangability is affected by both the tape standard (how everybody agrees the data will actually be physically written to tape - pitch, density, etc) and the hardware that each manufacturer builds. Within the video industry things generally seem to have pretty good interchangability.

Where might you see problems? Well if you buy the cheapest equipment is a likely place to start. This follows if you realize that the cheapest equipment also probably has the loosest tolerences (cheaper to manufacture), least sophisticated electronics (to follow the wandering data tracks across the tape), etc.

Does this mean you are *likely* to have problems - NO! Many people use low end cameras as capture decks for years with no problems. Was the sales guy from B&H telling you the truth - yes. Was he telling you the whole truth? Well, he *IS* a salesman...

:-)

Well, the B&H salesman is kind of right, though I don't know how widespread the problem is. There can definitely be tracking problems when playing tapes shot with older Canon camcorders in decks or camcorders from other brands.

Our Kino group has monthly short film screenings in Montreal, and once in a while we get glitches when playing a DV tape in the Sony deck. The technician then asks "Was it shot on a Canon?" and the answer is invariably yes. Switching the tape to a Canon camcorder resolves the issue. Other Kino cells are also aware of the issue, so I doubt this is anecdotic.

Not all tapes shot on Canon camcorders are problematic, and I believe this issue exists only with some older Canon models. My tapes shot on a GL2 play without a glitch, and I believe others using a GL2 or an XL2 never had any problems either.

I you have an older Canon model, then I suggest you try to play one of your tapes in that camcorder before buying.

Well there's the engineering perspective for you to chew on.

Buy the cheap deck. If a manufacturer can't deliver the basic goods, then they simply won't put it on the shelf.

We all have had drop outs from time to time on the most expensive gear. That's life.

If a brand new camcorder can't play a tape from day 1 then it is not a camcorder. It is a lemon.

Was the sales guy telling the truth? No! He's guilty of spouting unsubstantiated bunk. Avoid!

Was the sales guy telling the truth? No! He's guilty of spouting unsubstantiated bunk. Avoid!

Umm - no. Strictly speaking he *was* telling the truth. If you use cheap equipment from different manufacturers to write and read tapes you are *far* more likely to have tracking problems.

Would it influence me personally to change my purchase decision on a cheap camcorder vs. buying a deck? Not a bit, it's not a big issue - I would confidently buy the cheap camcorder; if it didn't read my tapes I'd return it.

It's kinda like buying the cheapest no-name DVD writer from Costco and then finding out that it writes DVDs that can't be read in all players - no big surprise there - you get what you pay for. It will work almost all of the time, in almost all configurations. If that's good enough (and it is for most of us), then have at it.

But it isn't unsubstantiated bunk (although he is using it to his advantage to help up-sell, but he's a sales guy, that's his job)

Cheers!

Rent or borrow a working unit and give it a try. That's always been my logic.

I have a Canon XL1s, and shot previously with XL1's, GL1's, and some rented ZR's. No big deal, they all playback tapes from one another, and I've yet to encounter issues with tapes not being able to playback from a local shop whom uses both JVC and Sony decks.

B&H should have a return policy. You can take advantage of that.

Pete

i use a canon zr100 as my cheap deck. i tried a panasonic cheapo and a jvc cheapo and had serious capture problems with both before i settled on the zr100 which does an excellent job.

i have no science to back this up, only anecdotal experience. but the other two really really cheap cams were sub-par. don't remember the model numbers.

As a previous sales guy with a reputable company, at least the sales guys I worked with were, he may actually know something about that particular camera that isn't general knowledge. I know a lot about a few products and I told people which products to stay away from. One quick example was the first run of the JVC miniDV decks they put out. It had a few major issues with dropouts. Did JVC ever admit to this issue? Nope. They did however come out with an "a" revision that cured the issue. Now the deck is OK. As a conscientious sales guy I did try to protect my people from buying things I knew they would blame me for selling to them later.

JVC isn't the only one. I know of issues with Sony and Panasonic pro gear too.

On the other hand, some sales guys are there for the up-sell. I didn't do that. I had the best interests of my friends and customers at heart. I suppose that's why I am back in Engineering again.

Anyway, you should still be careful using a cheap anything for real work. If it's a hobby, go for it. If you are making money from this venture, buy a Sony DSR-11 or DSR-25. Great decks, can do full sized DV, miniDV and DVCam. Or go for the Panasonic or JVC DV decks. (No DVCam record) and make money for years without worry.

Sean McHenry

My cheap JVC miniDV cam won't play miniDV tapes from a Sony TRV or a Sony Z1.
I just tried it and the JVC doesn't pick up the tape information.

Jimi

I got it to work. I put a new tape in the JVC. Then i recorded a bit. Played back the tape (it did ok).
From there it played back all the tapes I had.
Jimi

I love my DSR-11. It is a great workhorse for mini-DV or DVCam capture in either NTSC or PAL. I use it to capture many mini-DV tapes each week, and also to back up my footage to mini-DV tapes and also to make DVCam masters on 3 hr. DVCam tapes for my movies. It can also be used for analog video pass through and I also use it to pass along the singal from the window of my editing app to the tv I use as a monitor.

I throw in another vote for the DSR-11. Even better, but discontinued, the DSR-20. It had meters on the front. Actual timecode display is a great thing on the front of ther deck. I really miss that, and the character or moniotr outpu. You could do TC window dubs to VHS for producers to pre-edit with.

Sean

Hey, it just needed some encouragement! :)

For what it's worth, I have used a cheapo (Canon old Elura) as a deck and it's fine. The only thing was it doesn't read tapes recorded in DV-CAM (I had to borrow a Sony TRV)...obviously it's not deigned to do that. Stephen may want to move up one model or two up the food chain simply for quality/reliability issues and not get the cheeziest-built loss-leader they make. if I were using the deck everyday, I'd want at least a DSR-11. But it's still nice having an "expendable" piece to knockaround that I wouldn't cry if someting happened to it.

Hi,

I own the XL2 and I was wondering if I played back video I shot on the XL2 with a Canon ZR200 miniDV camcorder, will it play smoothly and without any dropouts or any other glitches?

I remember when I was in college and I had shot a Music Video using a Sony camcorder. I can't remember the model name, but it was one of those HUGE cameras that you see news broadcasters using. It was something along the lines of DSR250 I do believe that was the name. Yes, yes it was that camcorder. I just did a search on B&H photo.

It's this one:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=205297&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

Anyway, when I shot the music video using that sony camcorder, I tried capturing the footage with my brother in laws Canon ZR-60 (I do believe they changed the numbers to 100-400, because I can clearly recall my old camcorder only having 2 digits).

Anyway, when I tried capturing that footage, I would get dropouts (if that's the proper term). The video would move slow, desycned audio and just didn't playback right.

It mainly just playedback and captured really slow. The video jumped around too.

My main question is, has anyone tried capturing video shot on an XL2 with the ZR-200? It's a cheap camera and I'd like to buy it as a capture deck, but I want to be assured that I wont get the same problems.

Thank you in advance.

-Roger

I think that you will find that the ZR-200 will work fine.

From what I have read, some lower end cameras do not handle all of the audio that the XL2 can provide, but the ZR-200 should not have this problem.

What you are wanting to do is fairly common. Those who can afford a dedicated deck may perfer the more expensive option.

You should not experience a loss of quality by using the ZR-200 as a capture deck, as long as you are using firewire as your input to your capture program.

I would, however, never record in LP mode. If you do, you may have to capture using the original camera that recorded it.

Can anyone here in the editing crew point me in the right direction in acquiring a mini DV deck? I understand that digitizing to the computer from my camcorder on a regular basis puts exccesive wear on the transport head of the camcorder.

I've heard of using a cheapy mini Dv camcorder with the firewire interface as one solution.

What about just having a plain min Dv deck? What outfits offer this unit? Any ideas or experience with models, brands, pricing, etc.

Any input from the forum would be most helpful in my search.

Regards,

John

Mini Dv decks are more expensive than most cheap DV cameras. I have been using a cheap WD 250 Sharp for 3 years to capture from my VX 2000, and have had no problems. All the cheap camera has to do is transfer the 1's and 0's. And you might have a good little family camera to boot...

Thanks Chris, Yes I did notice that the decks were very expensive. Okay, I'll just search for a handy camera for the transfer to my pc. I appreciate your input.

I used a cheaper camera as a deck for quite a while with no problems. I just recently bit the bullet and purchased the Sony DSR-11. If you go through a bunch of tapes, it makes things so much easier. Yes, it's expensive compared to camcorders, but the fast rw/ff times, plus the ability to use full size DV and DVCAM tapes are a definite plus. I'm able to use 184 min DVCAM to do big project archiving if needed.

If you only use a few tapes a week, a camcorder should be fine. But if you do any type of volume, a deck is the way to go (IMO).

k, this is gonna be a REAL Dumb question. If the camera (Camera A) I am using to capture onto my computer is inferior to the camera (Camera B) I am shooting with, Am I going to be getting any loss of quality when it arrives in my computer?

k, this is gonna be a REAL Dumb question. If the camera (Camera A) I am using to capture onto my computer is inferior to the camera (Camera B) I am shooting with, Am I going to be getting any loss of quality when it arrives in my computer?


No loss at all, it is just reading 1s & 0s.

Mike

In theory, no. The recording is already done, all you are doing is transferring the data. However, there may be other issues, as some folk have had issues playing tapes in other cameras.

If you're only using minidv tapes, Sony's GV-D1000 is a nice little portable unit.

Wade.

I think you will find the Sony GV-D1000 also supports DVCAM playback and capture on Premiere 6 and Premiere Pro 1. On PAL recordings it does. How it goes for NTSC I don't know.

If Premiere doesn't know what it is in Capture, select GV-D900. It can live with that.

Another question... What if you shoot in 24P?

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I've not found a definative answer. (I've heard you can play back 24p on any mini dv device, but I don't know anyone who's done it sucsessfully...)

Another question... What if you shoot in 24P?

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I've not found a definative answer. (I've heard you can play back 24p on any mini dv device, but I don't know anyone who's done it sucsessfully...)

Me. I shot a music video with the XL2 in 24p mode, and played it back in the GV-D1000 to digitize into PPro 1.5. Maybe that's not the right way to do it, but it worked fine for me.

JVC makes a dual svhs/miniDV w/ firewire for around 800...

...I've seen some folks use a cheapy minidv cam (250-300) for capturing 'cause they didn't want to wear out the heads/transport in their nice camera...

...just a thought...

best,-s

To save the heads on XL1s what is a good mini DV camera to playback the video? Can I just get a super cheap camera for this? Will image quality suffer at all? I'm looking for something to upload to PC as well as play on a tv. Would something like this work (just from a quick ebay search)?

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Canon-OPTURA-20-Digital-Mini-DV-Video-Camera_W0QQitemZ7595829122QQcategoryZ20330QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Yes.

Do a search, and you'll see that a lot of people go this route.

I was thinking of searching but couldnt think of a key word. I'll try "playback deck"....see if that works. Thanks.

You'll find dozens of threads on this topic in our Long Black Line forum.

Has anyone used one of these decks? Is it a viable alternative to some of the higher priced decks, ie DSR11?

Has anyone used one of these decks? Is it a viable alternative to some of the higher priced decks, ie DSR11?

If you do a Search on this forum, you'll find numerous discussions of the GV-D1000. I have one and it has been very useful. I never have to use a camcorder for playback and if I want to show a video off tape somewhere, I don't have to lug a big VCR around. It won't replace a pro model DSR11, but then what will replace the $1,500. or so extra, it would cost? If you are doing straight playing into another VCR or a computer, the 1000 may be all you need. It actually does most editing functions, including insert editing and audio dubbing. The viewscreen is nice and the Memory-Stick slot and USB port allow you to feed still pictures to a computer. It runs on camcorder batteries, so you can take it along in a big coat pocket, as a complete video or still picture display system. It also charges the batteries. You can use it easily to record a tape in the field from any camera with a FireWire, S-Video or composite output. I've even used mine to record from an RF output, with a small, plug-in adaptor that draws its power from a jack next to its inputs. Under a sliding hatch on its side, there is a hotshoe type of connector, that is a complete mystery to me. Perhaps it enables some added functions that Sony keeps secret?

Under a sliding hatch on its side, there is a hotshoe type of connector, that is a complete mystery to me. Perhaps it enables some added functions that Sony keeps secret?

I also keep wondering what that connector is for. I couldn't find a single website that would explain the purpose of it.

But my guess would be that it is for maintainance/repair purposes to connect the deck to some diagnostic tool. Or maybe for some intended functionality that Sony later decided not to implement.

I also keep wondering what that connector is for. I couldn't find a single website that would explain the purpose of it.

But my guess would be that it is for maintainance/repair purposes to connect the deck to some diagnostic tool. Or maybe for some intended functionality that Sony later decided not to implement.

You are probably correct about the hidden connector being for diagnostic purposes to assist with repairs. My Digital8 GV-D200 mini-VCR has the same fixture. What are the chances you'd ever find anyone ay Sony who either could or would tell you its purpose? You know, if that same type of connector was on their camcorders, people wouldn't rest until they knew the answer.

The "hidden connector" on the left side is a mount for a Sony Camera (CDX-V3). When I purchased mine (several years back) from B&H had it listed on their website as a kit. There is also a TV Tuner (TGV-100) that can attach there from what I can recall.

The "hidden connector" on the left side is a mount for a Sony Camera (CDX-V3). When I purchased mine (several years back) from B&H had it listed on their website as a kit. There is also a TV Tuner (TGV-100) that can attach there from what I can recall.

Well, it's good to have that resolved and now I can sleep well again. This wasn't a stealthy portal for spying into our homes, after all! I wonder if they'll upgrade the TV tuner to have D/A conversion, for after 2009?

I in the midst of shooting a short film and was looking over monitoring options for editing. I was considering using a cheap DV cameras as a DV deck to run a preview monitor. Then it clicked when I was walking through the electronics section at walmart. I saw a DVD recorder with I*link or firewire in tor record from a camcorder.

Here's the question. Has anyone tried using a DVD recorder with firewire in as a DV preview monitor? If so, did it work?

Yes, this works with the right equipment.

Connect the firewire out of the computer into you camera/deck, then connect the video out of the camera to you monitor.

I have used a Canon Xl1s in this manner at times. Please note that there is no wear on the camera if the tape is not running.

without spending any money you could also just run the A/V cords to a tv.

Assuming your camera has the desired "pass-through" capability, Sony Vegas allows you to preview on a TV/monitor. Just hook up your camera to the port (powered on, of course), connect the A/V outputs to your television, select "preview external monitor," and you're golden.

Greetings. I have a newly acquired VX2100 and a G5 dual w/a 160 media drive. I have about seventy mini-dv tapes that I wish to go through and archive - take the personal shots out - put those on a new 'master' and categorize the other stuff that I've shot - wildlife rescues - onto their own 'masters'. I've tried using my GV-D300 and, whatever, the tape I transferred to had a black line to one side....and the deck had JUST BEEN to the cleaners! : ( ... Okay, question is, do I try and get the deck cleaned/gone over (costly) or do I purchase a $200-300 mini-dv camcorder and use IT as a deck? Any opinions? Other ideas?

I recently purchased an XL2 and am wondering about a supplemental DV deck. I am worried about the usage on my XL2 for all the things it is having to do. I am thinking I need something to do the following:
1. Play back my recording to get it into Vegas for editing
2. Record timecodes (I assume I still need to record entirely through the tape with the lens cover on the XL2 to get consistent time codes before using the tape???)
Rewind my tapes
3. Record back to the tape?

Thanks,