John, you concern is valid. Using your XL2 as a playback deck is not a good idea, as its hard on the transport and can shorten the lifespan of the camera. You can buy specific Mini DV decks, which I think are coming down to close to a $1000. What I do, and I know other people do this as well, is shoot on the XL2 and then use a cheap Mini DV camcorder as an editing deck. I have an older Canon ZR10 which works great. An added advantage is that you'll have a back up camera if you ever need it. You can pick up a Mini DV camera these days for about $300.
With the XL2, it is not necessary to black the tape (record all the way through first to get consistent time code). So long as you don't eject the tape, you can just press the "end search" button on the camera, and it will go to the end of the last recorded segment, and the timecode will remain unbroken.
If you think you will have to eject the tape, just roll a bit longer on your last shot. Then when you go to use the tape again, make sure you start recording over the tail end of you last shot, and the time code will pick up where you left off.

An other playback deck is alway better for your camera. Your camera is for recording, and the deck for playback. It gives the camera a longer life... I'm also looking for a good playback deck for achriving...

We just returned a Sony DSR11 due to apparent compatibility problems with the xl2 and 24p advanced. We replaced it with the panasonic - which so far - works great with the xl2.

Assuming your are transferring via 1394 then any DV tape transferred to a computer is basically just a bit for bit transfer, changing VCRs etc should make no difference. That's not to say that buying a good VCR (like a DSR-11) isn't a good idea however I doubt it'll make any difference to this issue.

Are you certain you have FCP setup correctly?

I'm no FCP expert but I've used a number of PC NLEs with a pretty wide range of VCRs and cameras and never had this problem. The only time I've seen black bars on the side of the frame is when ingesting from analogue sources and in that case they should be there (and ideally masked out).

John, I have a Panasoniv dv-2000 deck that I am selling for $1,100.00 and I ship. This is the Panasonic Pro/Line deck. Email me if you are interested. Bob

Does the DSR 11 really have problems with 24p recording? Even my little ZR 90 plays back 24p (not the 60i kind, the 2:3:3:2 kind)

I don't think FCP would cause a black line to be on one side of the footage. If settings are wrong with FCP, you'll usually get something that's the incorrect aspect ratio or nothing - I've never seen a case where it distorted anything the way you're saying.
Are you sure it isn't present in the actual recordings? You may need to watch it on an LCD disaplay to see it if it's at the very edge.
Also, would you be able to post a frame grab of this issue?
hope this helps

I've got the Panasonic AG-DV2500 deck. It has no problem playing back tapes from my XL-1s or XL-2. Plus, it will play back DVCam and full size DV tapes also. Goes for about $1500.00. I've never regretted spending the $$.

Hi everybody!

Ok this is my situation. I have 3x Canon XL2 PAL cameras and I will be shooting multicam scenes with these cameras. I will sync the cameras using the built in "free run" time code setting. And I will be editing using FCP on a dual 2ghz powermac G5.

So I need a timecode accurate deck which outputs the camera recorded TC to my editing suit.

Any suggestions?

Thanks from Iceland ;)

This is how we do it.

Timecode is left at record-run.

Once all three cameras are rolling, the talent claps his hands once to give us a slate point. All three cameras continue to run until the action stops.

If the cameras have to stop, then a new slate is marked when all three cameras are rolling to provide a new sync point.

In post, the clips are cut right at the slate mark and are then turned into a multiclip in FCP. All three cameras are usually in perfect sync and don't drift at all. These multicamera shoots run about 10 minutes and are edited down to short segments, usually two to five minutes long.

Yes thats probably the best option but we can't use this method because we are filming motorsport.

But thats not my problem I just need a good deck that works well with my recorded timecode.

Yes thats probably the best option but we can't use this method because we are filming motorsport.


Yep, that's a WHOLE lot different from covering someone cooking fish and shrimp!

Hi everybody!
So I need a timecode accurate deck which outputs the camera recorded TC to my editing suit.

Any suggestions?

Thanks from Iceland ;)

It really doesn't matter what deck you use for DV. If there's TC on the tape they'll all transfer it to the computer. The only time I've had a TC issue was when the camera didn't record it properly. Strange thing then was the old DSR-20 would read it but the DSR-11 would loose it from time to time. Not really a drama as Vegas coped with it perfectly.

The best price / performance deck seems to be the DSR-11, well apart from the door getting broken off by being clumsy! Anything cheaper costs you D5 shell tapes (aka DVCAM) and that can be a godsend.

More expensive decks like the DSR-45 give you slightly smoother shuttling and a lot of expensive stuff you'll probably never need like balanced audio and component out. If you've got a bundle to blow the DSR-2000 is the bees knees, if that deck wont track a tape nothing will, however you could buy several XL2s for the price!

You could also consider the new Sony HDV decks, they do DV, DVCAM and HDV so they'll give you some future proofing.

BTW, good luck editing, I've just finished a hill climb with a simulated 5 camera shoot. As the cars go around the track 6 times we shot from 5 positions and edited as a multicam. Fortunately one of the prizes is for who has the most consistant lap times.

But one thing I've noticed, even when everything is 100% in sync the cut can still look mistimed due to the shift of the car / background. I found I had to cut ahead rather than right on.

Hi
I am about to buy a budget minidv camera to use as a capture deck to save my XL2. I have borrowed a couple in the past and both made irritating noises as they stopped/started and had difficulty when asked to shuttle.

can anyone recommend a cheap (£200ish) camera for this purpose?

Many thanks in advance

I use a Canon ZR65 for capture only. It works great, saves wear and tear on my two GL2s and avoids the tape rewind problem that the GL2s sometimes have. I bought the ZR65 for $500 about 3 years ago. How much that is in pounds I don't know.

Whatever you get, test it out with your Xl2 footage first. I have heard that there are issues sometimes between Canon cams and readability on other MiniDV cameras. You can depend on a problem in LP if you sue that and there have been people reporting problems even in SP.

thanks gents for your response.

yeah, i'm worried about that chris which is why i would really appreciate any xl2 users that are using video cameras as decks without any problems to let me know the make and model.

thanks again in advance

Hey folks,

I'm in the market for a miniDV deck mainly for the purpose of outputting video from Premiere Pro 2.0 to my super-nice video monitor. I tried to do it via my video card with an S-video output, but I couldn't make it work because Adobe likes to cripple it's software for some weird reason. Don't get me wrong, it's an excellent NLE, but Adobe makes some really weird decisions. REALLY weird.

So, I was just wanting to get some opinions on the newest, best, and brightest technology you people might have been exposed to. Or, if you know of another way to get preview video from my time-line to my monitor that doesn't cost a thousand bucks, I'm willing to listen.

Thanks a lot!

~Nick V.

Well if you only care about DV->SD previews then just get one of the canopus ADVC 100 or 110 converter boxes. The ADVC's help with capturing low quality analog tape to DV too.

The ADVC's won't save wear and tear on your cameras by capturing mini-DV though. I think the Sony DSR-10(?) is the cheapest real deck out there but many people opt just to buy a cheap DV camcorder to use as a deck to save money. The DSR-10's advantage is mainly durability, and maybe DVCAM format on top of miniDV (not sure about that).

If you want HD monitoring the cheapest approach is the Matrox MXO (which makes a computer monitor act like a TV monitor).

Shayne Weyker
http://weykervideo.com

Shayne is irght, I use a $150.00 mini-dv camera to output to via firewire and haven't had any issues. A $1,200 deck may be overkill. Just depends on your needs. You can also look at the Sony GV-D900 deck, they go for about $900.

Shayne is irght, I use a $150.00 mini-dv camera to output to via firewire and haven't had any issues.

Does this mean that you don't use the same camcorder to output to PC? In other words, you use a professional or semipro camera to film and then take the tape out and use a cheap mini-dv camera to output? Is it OK?

Stelios

Professional videographers never use their expensive camera to play back or capture the footage. If money is not an issue but reliability is, then a deck is used. If money is an issue, than a cheap camcorder can be used to capture tapes.

As long as this camcorder works as expected (no dropped frames, no tape messed up mechanically), then there is no difference - capturing video from a miniDV tape is nothing more than file transfer. But of course, if you have to transfer a tape filmed in HDV, you will need an HDV deck or camcorder.

The reason you might want to use a different camera for capture and previews is that connecting and disconnecting the cables a lot from your good camera every time you switch between shooting and editing can wear out the cable connectors and make them loose. That and some cameras (mostly the Canon GL2/XM2) have a fragile tape transport mechanism that lots of capturing can break.

Shayne Weyker
http://weykervideo.com

If you do any extensive logging and capturing multiple clips from tapes, a deck will be MUCH faster.



ash =o)

I can recommmend getting a Sony DSR-11 if you can find the cash. A workhorse of a deck I've found mine to be super reliable and a good investment in time saved now (and likely in the future) for being able log and capture quickly.

Bigger decks are probably a little overkill at the moment in terms of investment unless you see yourself using SD for a fair while still (I do because a lot of the work I am shooting for is going to be highly compressed web based products with little call for high definition masters.)

Does this mean that you don't use the same camcorder to output to PC? In other words, you use a professional or semipro camera to film and then take the tape out and use a cheap mini-dv camera to output? Is it OK?

Stelios

I use a Canon xl-2 to shoot and I capture from and edit to a cheaper mini dv camera. I never playback anything from my XL-2. I haven't had any issues yet and have done a lot of projects this way. Saved me $$$ on buying a $1000 + deck. I plan on buying one eventually, but I'm a firm believer in if it works then don't fix it.

I'm getting ready to sell my DSR-30 DV deck--if anyone is interested, please make me a reasonable offer.

I'm getting ready to sell my DSR-30 DV deck--if anyone is interested, please make me a reasonable offer.

Charles, what condition is your deck and how old is it?

Stelios

Deck is probably 6-7 years old at this point. It's been used for my projects but not daily. Works flawlessly. No dropouts, no problems. It's a tank. Full rack size, very solid. Has integrated jog/shuttle on the control tray and remote. I also have a DSR-20 deck and I don't need both any more. The 20 is more portable so I'm keeping that one.

Does this mean that you don't use the same camcorder to output to PC? In other words, you use a professional or semipro camera to film and then take the tape out and use a cheap mini-dv camera to output? Is it OK?

Stelios


Once the video is recorded on the MiniDV tape, it doesn't make any difference between taking it out using expensive deck and taking out using a cheap MiniDV camcorder. Because it's already digital binary signal on the tape. Just like you have a file on your expensive computer, then you copy this file to a cheap computer, it's still the same file! That is the advantage of the digital nature.....

Juni, that is only true in theory, not practice. A deck will be faster at getting to in and out points (you can save a lot of time if you log extensively), a deck will have less trouble going from brand to brand of tapes, a deck will have less drop outs, etc. There are many advantages to having a deck...



ash =o)

Juni, that is only true in theory, not practice. A deck will be faster at getting to in and out points (you can save a lot of time if you log extensively), a deck will have less trouble going from brand to brand of tapes, a deck will have less drop outs, etc. There are many advantages to having a deck...



ash =o)

Ash, you are right in this sense..... But I only edit once the video is dumped on hard drive. I never found any problem, not even dropouts.....

Look around for a used Panasonic AG-DV1000. They're great units, built like a tank, have timecode display up front, and lots of input/output options. Mine was $800 new, but I bet you can find one in good shape for half that.

Only downside is that they are mini-DV only, not the full-size cassettes.

once the video is recorded on the MiniDV tape, it doesn't make any difference between taking it out using expensive deck and taking out using a cheap MiniDV camcorder. Because it's already digital binary signal on the tape. Just like you have a file on your expensive computer, then you copy this file to a cheap computer, it's still the same file! That is the advantage of the digital nature.....

Well, it's not exactly the same because a cheap MiniDV camcorder is not as precise in writing the information on tape as is a professional DVCAM deck. There is something called error correction and concealment that allows for a certain percentage of errors to be written on and read from DV tape before you can actually see an error (like one block when it can't be read is substituted with the copy of a nearby block).

With a cheap drive you get more errors in the first place and, when the tape degrades, you will more quickly experience visible errors because when too much errors are adding up then the correction and concealment mechanisms won't work anymore.

Ash, you are right in this sense..... But I only edit once the video is dumped on hard drive. I never found any problem, not even dropouts.....

Correct, if you get it problem free to the computer, it is all the same... 1's and 0's... It may take longer and you will run a greater risk of dropouts. A small cheap camera can certainly work but it is not optimum.



ash =o)

Correct, if you get it problem free to the computer, it is all the same... 1's and 0's... It may take longer and you will run a greater risk of dropouts. A small cheap camera can certainly work but it is not optimum.



ash =o)

I once talked to an electrical engineer who happens to be in this field. He says that DV read and write mechanism is so mature that modern DV cameras hardly make any errors. Even a low end camera can handle data read/write (on digital tape) transfer very well. That was like 2 years ago, I have never confirmed from an official source what he said however. Thru my own testing, i just believe that coz I have never had any visible errors using cheap camcorder to upload or even download, although I do have a deck.....

Juni, some tapes can be problematic and decks are more forgiving, i bet everyone on the forum has a story that could back that up. It is rare to have tape issues in general but a deck just is more robust and reduces problems even more.




ash =o)

Guys, this thread was exactly what I needed to hear. I am going to have to get a cheap miniDV camera to deck for me. When I get a promotion or win the lottery I would love to get the dedicated deck.

Is switching from one brand of camera to another an issue. I shoot on a Sony VX2000 but I am going to deck with a Canon ZR600 (gotta good deal <$100)?

JOE
Switching brands of playback machines is not a problem, it's switching tape formulations that can cause gunk-up. I shoot with an XL2 and use a Sony DSR 11 for playback/capture. No probs.

Having said that - further down the road, there are SOME formats of HDV that are brand specific. For instance Canon's 24f. No deck will play it back. You need a Canon Camera to do this.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=91200&highlight=log+capture

What is your input on the HVR-M15?

Joseph

The HVR-M15 is less expensive than the M10 or the M25, and it's very good. I work with it all the time, though it doesn't have a small LCD like the other HDV decks from Sony.

heath

Guys, this thread was exactly what I needed to hear. I am going to have to get a cheap miniDV camera to deck for me. When I get a promotion or win the lottery I would love to get the dedicated deck.

Is switching from one brand of camera to another an issue. I shoot on a Sony VX2000 but I am going to deck with a Canon ZR600 (gotta good deal <$100)?

I have not had very good luck using a Canon as a deck for tapes shot on a Sony. Often times I would get all kinds of artifacting, plus I believe that this ZR series of Canons has some basic tape drive reliability issues.
Why not just use the VX2000 to dump the tape onto your HD and edit from there? This process works well for me, and may serve you well too.

JOE

Having said that - further down the road, there are SOME formats of HDV that are brand specific. For instance Canon's 24f. No deck will play it back. You need a Canon Camera to do this.


I want to purchase a Canon H1, but this deck issue is irritating. What is Canon thinking forcing us to use a camera as a deck???

Any clue as to when someone will provide a solution?

Thanks!

AM

The best solution is the fun, excellent, full-1920x1080 (resolution) Canon HV20 (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=14869), which records in 24p and can playback 24f and 30f.

heath

Heath,
If some find the HV20 not robust enough,
couldn't you just get the HVR-M15 and for those occasions where you need to use 24f or 30f, dub from the Canon to the Sony and use the Sony from there on?
Yeah, it creates an extra tape, but the Sony deck should be better than the HV20 as a deck. Faster and more accurate shuttlling, etc.
Have not tried it yet personally, but that is the general direction that I am going in, though I don't shoot much that isn't 60i.

The best solution is the fun, excellent, full-1920x1080 (resolution) Canon HV20 (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=14869), which records in 24p and can playback 24f and 30f.

heath

That sounds great, how durable is the tape transport mechanism on this unit?

Will it stand up to the burden?

Thanks!

I have a Canon XL2 & would like to use it only recording, do not wish to play back on it (may be I am wrong for doing so). It may seems ridiculous but do not wish to hamper the head. To transfer the data & rerecording I prefer a VCR, which is exorbitantly priced. Can you people advice me an alternative, like using a low-end minidv cams/3ccd minidvcam or any other solutions are solicited.

Ashok

You answered your own question. A lot of people get a small, cheap, miniDV camcorder for just such a purpose. I don't edit much; right now I have one client I do some editing for, and it's really barely editing at all, and I do my own short films. So a $1500 machine is not practical. I got a Canon ZR500, it's one of the cheapest camcorders they make. I think it was around $250 or so, and it was priced like that new. You can of course, find cheaper on ebay, but those are likely well used. Since the tape heads in the cameras can't possibly be made to stand up to too much abuse, I'd think you would want to look for a new or new-ish one. Anyway, $250 is pretty dirt cheap. Before this I had a ZR80, I think, and that was purchased used for around $200. This is all, of course, assuming you are not doing too much capturing. If you have business and are capturing/shuttling tape on a daily or nearly daily basis, then I think the deck would be worth the investment.

To preempt you and answer another question I've heard a lot, no, it doesn't matter if you are capturing 24p, 30p, or 60i footage. It'll work fine in another camcorder besides the XL2.

Build quality & durability of the mechanical as well as the electronics of the player/cam, Sony is better or Panasonic,since both of them make professional ENG cams. The moving parts should be better compare to Canon's.
I'm considering Sony DCR-HC28/HC38/HC48 or Panasonic NV GS60, can you help me to finalise on these selection or suggest some other.
As I told you earlier this is only to use as player & transfer the data to PC, the essential part is IEEE 1394 port for fast transfer.

Ashok