Any suggestions for Mini DV Decks?

I just got the JVC HR-DVS2U. Not bad, but I need slow motion and frame by frame access to view and edit tennis instructional tapes.

I am looking at the Sony DSR -11 but it is not noted in Premiere in the DV Control windows.

I need high quality slow motion with forward and backward frame control, DV control, batch capture, and index search capabilities. ($ 2500 range)

Any experience on the Sony model?

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Al

I've been using a Sony DHR-1000 and it appears to have the features you are asking for. No problems using it with my capture card. It is a consumer product, and does take the 2 and 3 hour DVC tapes as well as MiniDV tapes.

Thanks for the input.

Al Van Vliet

I've looked at the specs on the Sony DHR-1000 and could not tell if it offers Device Control (specifically for use on batch captures in Adobe Premiere 6.0).

Any further information would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Al

Sorry for the incorrect posting.

Al Van Vliet

I am looking for a good mini-DV deck for copying the master tape and edit the copied tape.

Do you have any recommendation?

Using the Search function here will probably turn up quite a bit of info, since this is a relatively frequent topic here.

I've used a Panasonic AGDV1000 for over a year and love it. It's miniDV-only and retails for around $1000.

Just got an XL1 and noticed a slight incombatability with plackback on my dv deck. The deck i've got is a Panasonic AG-DV2700 which is the pro version of the NDV10000 (but as i'm from the UK i'm not sure if it's called the same thing in the USA), anyway when i play the tapes back i get slight blocking on the screen. This only happens when i play back tapes from the XL1 and when the tapes are played back in the XL1 they are fine.
Three questions
1. Are there any known issues with plackback on other manufactores decks.
2. Is it possible to get the camera re-set so that the tapes will play ok in my deck, if so , what do i tell them to set it to as the tapes from the deck play fine on the camera (I'm using PAL if that makes any differance.
3. Has anyone had a similar problem or could the camera need resetting (not a problem as it's got a warrenty that lasts for about four years.

Great forum
Thanks
Dominic

How far are you from Canon UK's physical location? If you can transport the camera and deck directly to them, they should be able to tweak the camera so that the playback and recording speed matches the deck precisely.

XL-1 tapes should normally play without problems on Panasonic decks. For my mastering deck, I'm using an AG-DV2000 (as I think Ken does). Any errors during playback show up on the XL-1, as well. I'm presuming you're recording at SP speed....?

I've been using the Panasonic AG-DV1000 (NTSC) for 20 months with no problems whatsoever using the deck with Final Cut Pro or with XL1, XL1s, GL1 or ZR30(!) footage (all in SP). I should note, however, that some folks have reported some difficulties over in the 2-pop.com forums when using the deck with LP footage.

Thanks everyone for your help, today i should be geting a tape shot on my friends XL1 which i think will play ok. This would show that my camera needs re-setting.
I contacted Canon uk and they said the if the camera is off in it's settings then they can re-set it, but they are not allowed to make any changes outside the XL1 spec.

Also, Vic you say that any errors would show up on the camera. Acording to Canon it is possible to have a record head that is out of spec wilest the play head is on spec and will play the camera tapes and other tapes (as is mine)

Dominic

Got the tape from my friend, it played better than mine but the blocking was still there, it seemed to get worse the longer i played the tape. As it's still under warrenty i'm going to take it back to Canon any get them to check if anyhting needs checking.
Does anyone have any ideas??????

Dominic

Check my math here.....I think you can play tapes you shoot OK on your XL-1, but they don't play well on the VCR(?)

You got a tape from a friend, also shot on an XL-1 -- it also doesn't play properly on the same VCR(?)

If so, sounds like your VCR deck needs work. If the tape from the other XL-1 plays on the VCR OK, but shows blocking on your XL-1, then it's off to Canon.

Any of this make sense?

Yes your' right, but the other problem is i have about 100 DVcam tapes thaqt were recorded on DSR130, 200, 300 and 500 and all of those play perfectly so if the deck is adjusted out of it's usual settings it may not play the older tapes.

As my XL1 is still under warranty i've decided to send it back to canon anyway to get it checked over if it comes back with the all clear then i'll send the deck to Panasonic, but i'll have to pay for them to check it, as it's over a year old.

Dominic

Apparently I am not the only person who has had playback issues when using an XL-1 with a Sony deck. A little over a year ago, I could not get a tape in my XL-1 to play back properly in my GVD900. It turned out that it was a tape path alignment problem with the XL-1.

What was so infuriating was that this tape path problem did not crop up until the first time I sent my XL-1 in to the owners club for servicing. I know this caused the problem as tapes shot prior to that "adjusting" would play back just fine in the Sony deck. It was only tapes shot after that that had the problem.

I think the best solution would be for Canon to make a good quality deck like a DSR11. Would anyone care to place a bet on whether or not this will ever happen?

Greg Matty

Since Canon has no consumer tape deck line (unlike Sony and Panasonic) I can't imagine how introducing a prosumer/professional line of decks would make any financial sense for Canon. Most tape-based product lines in general are approaching the end of their runs and would certainly not merit devotion of new capital.

For a GV-Dxxx class MiniDV tape deck with a Canon nameplate, consider getting one of the modest cost 1-CCD camcorders such as the ZR series.

Considering that the GV-Dxxx uses a camcorder-class tape transport mechanism, the camcorder solution should prove adequate for most purposes, and provide a backup camcorder too.

Any brand and model of VTR can and will need a tape path alignment at some point its lifetime. Think of tape path alignment like a front end alignment for your car. Is there a car made that at some point does not need a front end alignment? When I had my production company in Cincinnati, I would occasionaly help people out by purposely misaligning their tape path so they could copy their old tapes over. Old camcorders can make great playback units if you want to minimize wear and tear on your camera.

Jeff Donald

Except the gv-d1000 has a 4 inch lcd, and you can edit with it. I thought about getting another digital camera but figured I like this sony deck.

I have an XL-1 and a Canopus DVRex-M1 Editing system. In an effort to avoid putting unnecesary wear on my XL-1's video heads, I am looking for a secondary DV player that can be used for editing, leaving my XL-1 free for just shooting.

The problem is, the cheapest DV player I found was the Sony GDV300 for about $1000. Next was JVC's dual DV/SVHS deck for $1700.

So, being too smart for my own good, I was wondering if the possibility of using a cheap mimi-DV camera like from JVC or Canon to use as a playback machine would work. These things run about $500 and could also double as a backup camera for instances where I don't really want to risk using a $3500 camera.

I figure the difference between a $3500 camera and a $500 camera is mostly optics. The XL-1 has top notch optics plus a bunch of other advanced features. But I'm betting that the DV output signal, regardless of the camera it's coming from, is pretty similar, is it not? 0's and 1's are 0's and 1's no matter what the source.

So, what I am asking is, if I jam an XL-1 produced mini DV tape into one of these cheapie DV cams to play back to my editing system, will I lose anything in quality? In other words, is this a good idea? Again, I would think this would be OK since, unlike an analog signal, a digital output signal would tansfer as it is on the tape without interference or loss in quality from the playback camera.

Sorry for the long post, but if anyone has any ideas about this, please...

Actually, many people in this forum do exactly what you have thought of doing. It works pretty well and there shouldn't be any loss because DV is a straight file copy from the camera.

I used to do this, myself, until I bought a regular playback deck. There is a big difference in the speed that a playback deck transport operates. It's pretty convenient, but considering a budget, a cheapo DV cam works fine.

Thanks!

Of course, I'd prefer a tape deck like the JVC, but I can't justify spending $1700 on a playback only deck when there are so many other cool things to blow two grand on :)

You can get a Panasonic AG-DV1000 Mini-DV deck (records, not just playback) for just under $1,000. Otherwise any cheap 1-chip DV camcorder will do... I know that a lot of folks are using something like a $500 Canon ZR20 for this exact purpose. Hope this helps,

I logged on looking for advice on a alternitive to using my XL-1 for editing in conjuction with my computer. I want to use it just for shooting. The first post I saw gave some great advice, and I 'll probably go the ZR-10 route and I can save some wear and tear on the XL-1 and use the ZR-10 for shooting and editing.

I was looking at the ZR20 and the JVC GR-DVL120U. The JVC has a little better specs and seemed to get high ratings. After all, I could use it to shoot too, so it doesn't hurt to get a pretty decent camera optics-wise too.

But I'll actually have to go to one of the video stores and check them out in person. Unfortunately, JVC's own website doesn't go into a lot of detail that the manual would and a lot of the other web sites I've seen that sell this have a lot of conflicting or just plain wrong information.

I'll check out the Jvc. There is no question abouut the wear and tear on the XL-1. I was outputting some finished video from my U-lead App to the XL-1 mini-dv tape. It's just too much back and forth to get everything the way you want it. I really don't like to hear the XL-1 wizzing away that much. Shooting is one thing, trying to get the perfect edit is another. Will any mini-dv camera work as an output from my computer?I'm going to Beta-SP and regular VHS tape. I hope to upgrade to windows XP and a nice fat hard drive for some huge output files. Right now I can output 10 min. nice and clean and I'm sure I can handle the 18 min. limitation no problem. I can't wait to get my hands on a real deck!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love the XL-1, but the problem with an expensive camera like this, at least for me, is that I get paranoid about it :)

For disk storage, I highly recommend a RAID disk array. Some while ago, I bought a Medea RAID box. It's an external SCSI device that houses four IDE hard drives. There's a controller board in it that converts the IDE drives to the SCSI interface. I currently upgraded it to 160GB (40GBx4) and it's wicked fast. Plus, since it uses cheap standard IDE drives, it's inexpensive to upgrade to some really high capacities.

If you are using the firewire port, any mini DV camcorder should work as input/output to/from a computer. For other ports, like SVGA and standard RCA, it depends on your editing system and your camera. My Canopus DVRex-M1 supports both DV and analog input and output, so it would work for me. Assuming of course that the camera also has both input/output ports for SVGA/RCA. Not all DV cameras have both input and output analog ports. Sometimes it's just output for SVGA. That's why I want to eyeball the cameras myself - to see what each actually has.

Will the hard drive recorders that I've read will be available soon negate the need for the kinds of editing stations being discussed in this thread? I think Sony announced at NAB that they will be coming out soon with a small hard-drive system that will record in tandem with a camera's tape transport.

Have any of you seen or heard of other manufacturers jumping on this bandwagon?

Hi,
I had the same concerns $$$$$$$$$$

Got the Canon ZR-10 $399

not only a deck but now I have an extra camera

I think I'm going to try out the JVC DV120 model. It's pretty cheap at $499 but has some nice specs, 520 lines, 680k pixel CCD, nice looking output, good reviews etc.

I read in the posts that you can use a mini-dv camera as a cheap deck if you don't want use a camera like the XL-1 durring the editing process. The wear and tear can be avoided by use of a cheaper dv- camera. I see some great buys on e-bay.Does the use of the i-link degrade the signal? Will the timecode show up on the tape using these cheaper cameras?Is there any considerations I should be aware of concerning the quality of the transfer between the camera and my computer? I assume D.V. is all the same concerning transfer to computer

Any MiniDV camera will transfer the same signal over the firewire port as any expensive camera or deck. However, if you actually purchased a deck you may find it more useful than you think. The main reason is the shuttling/RR/FF speed. Our deck is MUCH faster rewinding, fast forwarding, and shuttling back and forth on the tape than any deck I have used. This makes a true deck a pleasure to use.

Edward:
What deck do you have?

Yes, you can use an inexpensive camera as a "deck". As Edward noted, the iLink/IEEE1394/Firewire signal your computer will receive and send will be absolutely identical to the one it would get from an expensive deck.

But, also as noted by Edward, the tape transport mechanism for a deck is designed specifically for the type of start/stop/variable motion rate that capture and edit processes often demand. They move the tape much quicker, and often more precisely, than a camera.

Before you buy a cheap cam as your deck consider that if you plan to use the cam-deck frequently (say 6-12 hrs/wk) for your captures assume that it will probably break-down in a year or two. After all, the reason that the camera was inexpensive to begin with is partly due to the quality of the camera's tape transport. So, over, say, a 5 yr. period you should realistically double the price of the cam-deck to decide the true cost of this option.

Conversely, you can buy a pretty good miniDV deck for about $900 which will last at least 5yrs and outperform any cam-deck. Personally, I use a Panasonic AG-DV1000 and have liked it very much. If I had to make the purchase again I might have selected a higher-end Sony to get DVCAM compatibility.

Where did you find a DV deck for $900?


Ford Minton
DV gear whore

That's about the price of the Panasonic deck I noted. Check at B&H and other places.

Yes, A dv deck is in the near future. For now a mini camcorder will have to do. Thanks for the reply.

Just to make sure. Once I have edited my material in the computer I can then output via the I link(1394) to any inexpensive camcorder?

Justin,

I use a Panasonic AG-DV2000 - the big brother to the one Ken mentioned (DV1000). It has a few additional features including the ability to use the large size DV tapes. Another reason for having the DV2000 is because I purchased it before the DV1000 was released. I have been VERY pleased with this deck.

Hi,
Just wondering, anyone know what is the lifespan of the xl1s deck?
And if it wears off, how much does it take to repair it?

EdwardTr,

What's the rough price on the Panasonic AG-DV2000?

The Panasonic AG-DV2000 deck should be running right around $2000, although I have seen it for $1900 on occasion. $2200 would not be too much to pay. These decks can be hard to find sometime. Call Pro-Tape in Austin, Houston or San Antonio; they're a dealer for these decks. www.pro-tape.com

Brad,

I agree with Chris. The AG-DV2000 runs about $2000.

Hello, I am new to this forum and thrilled it is here.
I am using the JVC VS-20 Deck via Firewire to a Sony RX380 digital studio running Premiere 6.2 software. When I first connected the deck, using the firewire that came with the computer (5 ft 3in) I received an error message saying the computer was looking for a driver. JVC said they do not have a driver for the deck. I needed a longer firewire cable to "clean up" my desk, so I bought a 10 ft. cable and guess what? The problem went away. However, when I try to "lay back" to tape using a specific timecode, it will not work. The computer seems to try to run the deck, but it locks up. The only way I can "lay back" to tape is to put the tape in record/pause, play the timeline, and record. So, if I would like to replace a segment of the program on tape, I can't. Anyone have this problem?

hi,
I can be wrong, but it seems that i-link does'nt have insert editing commands in it's "vocabulary". I've been working with Sony ES-3 NLE, which has both i-link and RS-422 control interfaces. Thru RS I was able to do insert editing, write to tape with timeline time code, and so on. Thru i-link I was only able to "dump to tape" and tape timecode had no any relevance with timeline time code. I used Sony DSR-70P recorder which also has both interfaces. Some recorders have "write with time code" option in menu, but that also did'nt help.

Thanks Margus. I never thought about the I-Link not haveing the capability. I assumed (that old problem again) because the software (Premiere) has the option for entering a timecode, the deck would respond. Unfortunatly the JVC deck does not seem to have any other control interface.

OK, I think I'm going to do what has been suggested in the VHS Duplication thread, and buy a miniDV deck. Well actually a camcorder to use as a deck, since I could also use a backup camera/2nd camera on some sports projects and don't have the money for both.

In a different thread, I think Chris said that the closest single chip camera to the XL1 was the Canon Optura Pi with it's progressive scan CCD chip. This camera has DV in right?

I'm going to start looking for a used one locally, is there anything I should know about these? Any flaws, or recalls?

Also, any other suggestions of a 2nd choice to use besides the Optura Pi? My budget is around $650us, which is what I've seen a couple of used Pi's sell for.

Thanks!

I have used the Optura Pi for just what your proposing and it has worked fine with FCP as a playback source. I sold my last one about 6 weeks ago on ebay for $775. B & H ocassionaly has refurbished units for sale in the $600 range. Zotz, a sponsor, might also have refurbished units.

The tape eject opens from the bottom. It is kind of ackward, so be carefull when loading your master.

In lower contrast scenes the picture can almost match the XL1. they have always been reliablecameras and I have not had any service problems with them.

Jeff

<< The tape eject opens from the bottom >>

Incorrect -- the Optura Pi ejects the tape out of the back, so you can use it on a tripod. This is another reason why I like it so much. The newer Optura 100MC, the ZR series and Elura series all eject from the bottom.

Dylan -- All Canon DV camcorders have FireWire in. Hope this helps,