Thanks Mark
There is no limitation on the 720 120fps mode that I know of. The 720 120fps mode is probably my favorite mode of all. If it was just a touch sharper.

As a micro review after having it a month the overall con is it is a little slow in general as in focus, zoom, reaction time in general. I like to switch between modes and resolutions a lot and it is a 2 menu process every time.

The pros are many picture quality #1 , Full manual control, EVF is awesome,4K 1080 60p and 720 120p ! Also nightshot.

Joey, if you think this is slow, you should see the GH4. I currently have it, but will be returning it for a variety of reasons.

The autofocus is very slow and very unstable. As opposed to the Sony, it doesn't lock on to a subject that way the AX100 does. Additionally, the exposure is very stepped as is the case with most DLRS not using a constant aperture lens. As a result, you can get a sudden brightening or darkening of the image.

I also have a weird effect with shots at telephoto distances. It's almost as if the camera is seeing 'heat waves'. In fact if I weren't doing A/Bs at the time with my AX100, I would have attributed it to that, heat waves. It wasn't.

This has made me appreciate the AX100 that much more.

Ken I have been checking out your thread. I was tempted to switch to the GH4 if it was awesome even though its not full frame. I have a few L lens and an old 5D markII I'm guessing Canon will never put 4K in their normal DSLRs ,heck I don't think they have a 1080 60p video mode in one yet. I have really been looking at switching to Sony A7. Since I am just as much into photography I want full frame.

I think the AX100 will be great for a few years until 4K 120fps comes out on a new camcorder lol.

Hi

Joey, if you think this is slow, you should see the GH4. I currently have it, but will be returning it for a variety of reasons.

The autofocus is very slow and very unstable. As opposed to the Sony, it doesn't lock on to a subject that way the AX100 does. Additionally, the exposure is very stepped as is the case with most DLRS not using a constant aperture lens. As a result, you can get a sudden brightening or darkening of the image.

I also have a weird effect with shots at telephoto distances. It's almost as if the camera is seeing 'heat waves'. In fact if I weren't doing A/Bs at the time with my AX100, I would have attributed it to that, heat waves. It wasn't.

This has made me appreciate the AX100 that much more.

You seem to the be first person finding these issues, I don't see any problems in GH4 clips that have been posted or anyone else talking about it.

Perhaps you just have a faulty camera or lens and/or are expecting the GH4 to behave like a consumer camcorder, when most people understand it will not.

It's a digital mirror-less camera that shoots great video but needs some time and work for that, if you want point and shoot, a traditional camcorder is what you need and what you have.

Regards

Phil

Joey, if you think this is slow, you should see the GH4. I currently have it, but will be returning it for a variety of reasons.

The autofocus is very slow and very unstable. As opposed to the Sony, it doesn't lock on to a subject that way the AX100 does. Additionally, the exposure is very stepped as is the case with most DLRS not using a constant aperture lens. As a result, you can get a sudden brightening or darkening of the image.

I also have a weird effect with shots at telephoto distances. It's almost as if the camera is seeing 'heat waves'. In fact if I weren't doing A/Bs at the time with my AX100, I would have attributed it to that, heat waves. It wasn't.

This has made me appreciate the AX100 that much more.

Ken, your mention of the GH4 autofocus being "very unstable" caught my attention. I've been trying to decide between buying the GH4 and AX100. In many videos I have seen from m4/3 cameras and DSLR's, including some pre-release GH4 videos, the AF locks in, then loses focus at some point during shooting and has to refocus. This sometimes occurs even if the subject isn't moving and the camera is not being panned or zoomed. The only movement of the camera is the small movements caused by being used hand-held.

Does the GH4 do this? And does the AX100 do this? I haven't seen it in AX100 youtube or Vimeo videos, but it may have been edited out before posting.

I am used to small sensor Sony camcorders (like the CX760V with a tiny 1/2.88 sensor) which have deep depth-of-field, so I have never experienced a loss of focus during shooting. I would not like dealing with the loss of auto-focus mid-shot, and don't want to learn to use manual focus (I use manual exposure often, but don't won't to bother with manual focus -- it's too hard with old eyes, even with using the peaking feature.) The GH4 m4/3 sensor, and even the AX100 1" sensor are much larger than the CX760V's sensor, so I am concerned about the AF issue with either choice.

Hi

You seem to the be first person finding these issues, I don't see any problems in GH4 clips that have been posted or anyone else talking about it.

Perhaps you just have a faulty camera or lens and/or are expecting the GH4 to behave like a consumer camcorder, when most people understand it will not.

It's a digital mirror-less camera that shoots great video but needs some time and work for that, if you want point and shoot, a traditional camcorder is what you need and what you have.

Regards

Phil

Hi
Of course Phil you will never have anything good to say about the AX100. That's already been established more times than I can count on MUTIPLE forums. Just as when I posted a video of the major issue I was having with the 'heat wave' effect, your only comment was how you had seen something like that on the AX100. Comments from you on the actual GH4 video I posted? None. Only an obscure reference to having seen 'something like that on the AX100'. Very funny. Yet I have yet to see ANY AX100 video that shows anything like what I posted with the GH4.

Phil, I don't know what your motivation is for so despising the Sony, but I find it so very odd. I suspect one day we'll find out. Don't you find the GH4 makes you 'physically ill' as you've stated numerous times relative to the AX100? Or does the same 30fps on the GH4 make you 'feel better'?

Phil, I have had numerous DSLRs and have shot lots of video with them and know full well what their foibles are. I know the autofocus on DSLRs when shooting video is poor. However the issues I was having with the GH4 went beyond that and I proved that with video evidence. I don't have any grudges against one camera vs another as you most obviously do.

I was perfectly willing to work a bit harder for good video that exceeded that of the AX100, but even when I did work harder for those results, I found the video produced by the AX100 to be superior, IMO. We know for a fact that its resolution is higher than the GH4. That's been tested and proved.

Ken, your mention of the GH4 autofocus being "very unstable" caught my attention. I've been trying to decide between buying the GH4 and AX100. In many videos I have seen from m4/3 cameras and DSLR's, including some pre-release GH4 videos, the AF locks in, then loses focus at some point during shooting and has to refocus. This sometimes occurs even if the subject isn't moving and the camera is not being panned or zoomed. The only movement of the camera is the small movements caused by being used hand-held.

Does the GH4 do this? And does the AX100 do this? I haven't seen it in AX100 youtube or Vimeo videos, but it may have been edited out before posting.

I am used to small sensor Sony camcorders (like the CX760V with a tiny 1/2.88 sensor) which have deep depth-of-field, so I have never experienced a loss of focus during shooting. I would not like dealing with the loss of auto-focus mid-shot, and don't want to learn to use manual focus (I use manual exposure often, but don't won't to bother with manual focus -- it's too hard with old eyes, even with using the peaking feature.) The GH4 m4/3 sensor, and even the AX100 1" sensor are much larger than the CX760V's sensor, so I am concerned about the AF issue with either choice.

Dale, you are precisely correct. Every DSLR I've ever had (with the exception of the RX10, which some might not consider a true DSLR) does exactly what you said. They will take a second or longer to catch the focus AFTER you hit the record button. So the beginning of the shot is invariably lost. Then, at some point during the clip, the focus will hunt for no good reason. It doesn't happen all the time, but often enough to be very annoying...at least for me.

My GH2 & GH3 behaved exactly the same way and yes, unfortunately my GH4 has done the same thing. It is very annoying and really necessitates you abandoning autofocus if you want to ensure you get the shot correct from start to finish. This was clear in many pre-release GH4 videos, but I was hoping the final firmware would address it. It didn't.

Since my pleasure video taking is more of a 'run n gun' style, this does not lend itself well to this kind of shooting. There are too many instances where you don't have the luxury of setting up a shot or the shot requires instant capture to avoid missing it entirely. Many things we shoot happen quickly and won't wait for you to adjust all the parameters in manual mode.

The additional issue with DSLR video shooting, is a tendency for exposure to change in 'steps' rather than a smooth ramping that occurs in camcorders. Personally I find this very distracting and it's evident in the GH4 too.

Put simply, you need to take extra time to ensure that shots are successful when using a DSLR. Where you have the luxury to do this, it's fine, when you don't it's not.

Now the AX100's autofocus is great. It generally locks on quickly (there may be some exceptions) and the focus simply does not drift, It makes no difference if you're zooming or pulling back from a tight shot, the focus stays locked. The result is, IMO, more professional looking.

The major thing you are missing in the AX100 is a DSLR level of control over DOF. So although you can get some relatively shallow DOF shots with the AX100 by either shooting close to your subject with a wide aperture or by shooting at longer zoom ratios, you won't have quite as much control.

I find this a very acceptable 'limitation' given the ease of shooting and the many foibles of DSLR shooting.

To be honest, I've given up on the GH4 and will only shoot with the AX100. With the Sony, shot after shot after shot is perfect. If there are any shots that are off the mark, it's almost always my fault. :)

The major thing you are missing in the AX100 is a DSLR level of control over DOF. So although you can get some relatively shallow DOF shots with the AX100 by either shooting close to your subject with a wide aperture or by shooting at longer zoom ratios, you won't have quite as much control.

Thanks, Ken. That pretty much settles it for me in favor of the AX100 and confirms what I have seen. Also people on the GH forums have told me that with m4/3 cameras and DSLRs it is best to shoot video with manual focus.

As far as less ability to get shallow DOF with the AX100, that is exactly what I want. I only shoot vacation and family events and want the video to look like what I saw with my eyes. So shallow DOF is not something I need or want.

4K RC Cars

Could be the youtube compression but it looks like with that fast moving objects the codec in 4k is getting stressed much more as in 1080p as I do see more artifacts, eventhough it appears a bit sharper then the footage shot at 1080p.

Thanks, Ken. That pretty much settles it for me in favor of the AX100 and confirms what I have seen. Also people on the GH forums have told me that with m4/3 cameras and DSLRs it is best to shoot video with manual focus.

I have a cx730 and a gh3 and in terms of functionality these camera are somewhat comparable with resp the ax100 and gh4, a gh3/4 is not exactly a run a gun camera, at least not compared to a cx730/ax100, the ax100 has a larger sensor which also contributes in a shallower dof making focusing more tricky then on a cx730 but I expect it to perform much better then on a gh4. The ax100 is actually a "real" palmsized videocamera with stepless exposure changes, build in ND's, smooth zoom, just to name a few functions of what you won't be finding back in small formfactor dslr's, the gh4 makes a good effort adding functionality that is much needed for making video but it remains a camera that takes more effort to get it right.

Hi



You seem to the be first person finding these issues, I don't see any problems in GH4 clips that have been posted or anyone else talking about it.

Perhaps you just have a faulty camera or lens and/or are expecting the GH4 to behave like a consumer camcorder, when most people understand it will not.

It's a digital mirror-less camera that shoots great video but needs some time and work for that, if you want point and shoot, a traditional camcorder is what you need and what you have.

Regards

Phil

The effect had been noted in other threads as well, it was not just his camera.

Hi
Of course Phil you will never have anything good to say about the AX100. That's already been established more times than I can count

I think the problem Ken is my posts with you have usually been to counter your over praising of the Sony AX100, it is a good camcorder, nothing wrong with it. I don't think I've particularly said anything negative about it for the sake of it. I was even going to buy it for the 1080P and it's 50Mbps capture, but I've yet to see any native files of 1080P, and it's a big old thing just for 1080P, compared to something more compact and flexible like the GH4, which goes up to 100 or 200Mbps for 1080P and takes fantastic pictures, the GH4 is where I'm heading.

Phil, I don't know what your motivation is for so despising the Sony, but I find it so very odd. I suspect one day we'll find out. Don't you find the GH4 makes you 'physically ill' as you've stated numerous times relative to the AX100? Or does the same 30fps on the GH4 make you 'feel better'?

I don't despise it at all, it's just a gadget, I think despise is out of context :) I've personally no interest in 24/25 or 30p at 4K resolutions, I've made that clear, the type of camera capturing it doesn't make a difference in my view. When 4K reaches maturity and we have 60fps capture, I'm in.


Phil, I have had numerous DSLRs and have shot lots of video with them and know full well what their foibles are. I know the autofocus on DSLRs when shooting video is poor. However the issues I was having with the GH4 went beyond that and I proved that with video evidence. I don't have any grudges against one camera vs another as you most obviously do.

I was perfectly willing to work a bit harder for good video that exceeded that of the AX100, but even when I did work harder for those results, I found the video produced by the AX100 to be superior, IMO. We know for a fact that its resolution is higher than the GH4. That's been tested and proved.

Your hobby doesn't seem to be videography, it appears to be just lusting after the next camera and debating endlessly about them, certainly that is the case on another forum, just go out and film your friends and family and happy memories, when you watch those things back in my experience no one is watching for odd "micro" wobbles or pixel peeping or even care if it's SD, HD or 4K.

Regards

Phil

No Phil, you have demonstrated a particular distaste for the AX100, that's simply a fact. When two cameras demonstrate a similar issue, you will always ignore the issue in camera B and point to the AX100 as the camera with the problem.

Even my posted video proof that my GH4 produced the heat wave effect at telephoto focal lengths and my AX100 did not, was apparently not enough for you. These were clips shot at the same time, same location and same subject. Instead of admitting the AX100 was free of this issue, you felt compelled to say that you thought you had seen something like that effect with the AX100. I asked you for a link to any clip from any AX100 production camera that showed anything like what I demonstrated with the GH4. You have not done so. You never will.

This is not the first time posters have asked you for links to evidence to back up your odd assertions. The sad fact is you never do Phil. Never. And you have been called out on this by multiple posters. You're credibility is in doubt.

You grudgingly referred to the camera in your last post as 'good'. I think you know damn well the camera is better than 'good'. A $400 AVCHD camera may be 'good'. But shooting the kind of 4K footage it does, setting a precedent for the kind of PQ it produces in a unit this small is just 'good'? C'mon Phil, you give it all away there.

Your endless 'the AX100 clips make me physically ill' comments are hysterical. The same footage shot with the GH4, shot at the same frame rate, elicits no such comment.

And you feel the need to counter my enthusiasm for the AX100? Say what? Do you not see that as a somewhat bizarre behavioral pattern? Does it so bother you when someone feels they are getting footage that is so much better than any camera they've used before? Does it so bother you that someone is enjoying their camera? I'm sorry, that's a really odd motivation to feel compelled to throw cold water on positive comments. If my comments regarding the AX100 are TECHNICALLY inaccurate, then point that out. But to feel compelled to counter someone's enthusiasm simply because they're enthused? Sorry Phil, sounds both childish and rooted in a bit of jealousy. You must be great at parties.

As I've said before, we differ because you are technically inaccurate in many of your comments. You don't own the AX100 and have never seen the AX100 footage on a large screen UHD TV, yet you seem to be an expert about the AX100.

Finally, your comment about videography not being my hobby is supremely ignorant. These forums are filled with people who 'lust after their next camera' BECAUSE their hobby is videography. This simply eludes you.

What I find amazing about guys like you Phil, is that you have zero interest in buying an AX100. All you do is forum jump to throw stones at a camera you have no intention of buying. There's a word for that Phil, it's called TROLLING.

Even my posted video proof that my GH4 produced the heat wave effect at telephoto focal lengths and my AX100 did not

Had to google to get to your vimeo account which had that pârticular video, can I ask Ken what lens was on the gh4 at that moment? Was it a stabilised one?
This looks like a rolling shutter issue to me.

Ken, I recently picked up the GH4. I thought seriously about the AX100, but chose the GH4 because it is also a full-fledged stills camera, has more versatile recording options, and seems to have better dynamic range. The AX100 is a camcorder, and this makes it superior in many ways for run and gun kinds of video without the need for changing lenses and more careful attention to setting up shots. The AX100 may have better resolution as well, I don't know. I agree with Noa, I think the heat wave effect is rolling shutter, and it may be more pronounced on the GH4 because the AX100 image stabilization is more effective. Panasonic lenses seem to have weaker IS capabilities in many cases. Were you shooting in 24p on the GH4? Rolling shutter is lower in 30p and way lower in 60p 1080p on the GH4.

These 2 great cameras have different strengths and weaknesses. I am still tempted to get an AX100, but I think the GH4 has deeper potential for professional work, but probably requires a bit more fuss to get the best out of it.

Hi

Had to google to get to your vimeo account which had that pârticular video, can I ask Ken what lens was on the gh4 at that moment? Was it a stabilised one?
This looks like a rolling shutter issue to me.

I agree, rolling shutter is probably a contributing factor here.

Some footage of the AX100 also demonstrates similar affects, although someone is blaming that on a pre-production model, although originally they said they couldn't see it at all on this footage, all discussed in this very thread.

SONY FDR-AX100 4k vido camera in FDR-AX100 - 4K-USER GROUP on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/groups/226931/videos/87997397) at 1:40 very noticable wobbles across different parts of the frame and worse later on.

I suppose what we should ask is for the person experiencing this issue to find similar problems on other footage posted out there from the GH4, and there is plenty to choose from, if it can't be found, then the likelihood is the posters camera or lens is faulty or badly calibrated, so lets not throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.

Still I've seen similar things on various HD camcorders with OIS although not as bad, and given the longer read-out time for 4K so rolling shutter is worse (that footage is riddled with it, any verticals get distorted for the smallest wobble), and you get the lenses moving around and re-positioning faster than the read-out time then I think this is just a characteristic of OIS and 4K under certain circumstances, certainly for the time being until read-out times improve.

Also no one said OIS is perfect, and it has an off button and tripod mounts for a reason. :)

Regards

Phil

Had to google to get to your vimeo account which had that pârticular video, can I ask Ken what lens was on the gh4 at that moment? Was it a stabilised one?
This looks like a rolling shutter issue to me.


Noa, yes, that was with the new version of the Lumix 14-140 lens with OIS engaged. I don't pretend to know what's causing it, but it's really bad as you can see.

Ken, I recently picked up the GH4. I thought seriously about the AX100, but chose the GH4 because it is also a full-fledged stills camera, has more versatile recording options, and seems to have better dynamic range. The AX100 is a camcorder, and this makes it superior in many ways for run and gun kinds of video without the need for changing lenses and more careful attention to setting up shots. The AX100 may have better resolution as well, I don't know. I agree with Noa, I think the heat wave effect is rolling shutter, and it may be more pronounced on the GH4 because the AX100 image stabilization is more effective. Panasonic lenses seem to have weaker IS capabilities in many cases. Were you shooting in 24p on the GH4? Rolling shutter is lower in 30p and way lower in 60p 1080p on the GH4.

These 2 great cameras have different strengths and weaknesses. I am still tempted to get an AX100, but I think the GH4 has deeper potential for professional work, but probably requires a bit more fuss to get the best out of it.

Hey Pat. Yup, I agree with virtually everything you said.

All shots were made at 4K resolution @30p.

Of course we've seen no evidence that the AX100 has a 'similar effect'. It is very obvious the heat wave effect is far worse on the GH4 and I've seen nothing like it on the AX100.

The one clip that Phil showed of the AX100 was both a pre-production unit and didn't show the issue anywhere near the magnitude of what I posted with the GH4. In fact, the clip really didn't show anything other than what one would expect from an unsteady hand.

Now since the GH4 was only released days ago, we don't begin to have the library of clips we have from the AX100. I have yet to see an AX100 clip that shows anything like the heat wave effect.

Ouch, and I thought the rolling shutter on the ax100 could look bad. The longest zoom lens I use to shoot handheld on my gh3 is the 12-35mm, anything longer then that will be tripod mounted. From what I understand the rolling shutter is worse in 4k 25p compared to 1080p 50p? In any case, my experience tells me that you should not use a gh3/4 type of camera in that way, it's no excuses to cover up it apparent rolling shutter issues but a dslr is not build to provide you supersmooth 200mm handheld footage, handicams are, eventhough the ax100 is no match for the satbilisation of the cx730 it still seems plenty good enough to get stable enough shots at the long end of the lens.

The gh4 is not a run and gun camera and can't really be compared to a ax100, they are both 2 totally different camera's for different purposes, the gh4 will give you more possibilities in lens choices, shallow dof, codecs and image presets but the ax100 is a bit like the rx10 a all in one powerhouse that does most stuff well to really well. A GH4 will require an experienced operator to get the most from it while the ax100 can make a soccermam look good. :) Don't get me wrong with that last statement, I do have small handicams and dslr's that I use for my paid projects and for any quick and dirty work I much prefer my handicams over my dslr's but when I have the time to set up I much prefer my dslr's.

Well put Noa. Agreed.

Hi


Now since the GH4 was only released days ago, we don't begin to have the library of clips we have from the AX100. I have yet to see an AX100 clip that shows anything like the heat wave effect.

There have been many samples of footage put out there from pre-production models and now retail ones, which if anything, according to your theory on pre-production models it seems, should have even more issues, so should be easier to find an example of your problem.

I put in GH4 on Vimeo and it came back with 800+ pages of results, is that not a big enough library? So I think I will accept what you mean is you haven't found any. ;-)

If you want a point and shoot camcorder then the AX100 is the best one there is for 4K, until next year, when all these discussions will no doubt start again. Video on a DSLR (or mirrorless) is a different beast entirely, one that doesn't suit your uses, the great thing about all this is, we have a choice to pick something that does suit us. For you, you are lucky to be able to afford to try both, and I'm sure all these discussions will be useful for helping those that can only manage to go with one or the other, to decide which camp to go into.

Regards

Phil

Hi

There have been many samples of footage put out there from pre-production models and now retail ones, which if anything, according to your theory on pre-production models it seems, should have even more issues, so should be easier to find an example of your problem.

I put in GH4 on Vimeo and it came back with 800+ pages of results, is that not a big enough library? So I think I will accept what you mean is you haven't found any. ;-)

Wrong as usual. First off, I have no 'theory' about pre-production vs production other than the fact that with a production model we know we have the final firmware. But you knew that.

Second, of these 800+ pages of results, I guarantee you that most are shot at wide angle. Filter out those shot with the 14-140 2nd gen lens at full telephoto, then of those filter out those shot hand held and not tripod mounted and that get back to me. Let's see if you've even got 3 pages remaining ;)

C'mon Phil, this is really getting silly.

Edit: You are truly so disingenuous Phil. Did you actually go through ANY of those '800+ pages'? I gave up at 10 when all the hits had nothing to do with the GH4. NONE were related to tele shots with the 14-140 lens and most were simply repeats of clips we have seen for months prior to release. Just amazing. This is what I fight about on the internet. People deliberately being disingenuous and misleading. It serves no purpose.


If you want a point and shoot camcorder then the AX100 is the best one there is for 4K, until next year, when all these discussions will no doubt start again. Video on a DSLR (or mirrorless) is a different beast entirely, one that doesn't suit your uses, the great thing about all this is, we have a choice to pick something that does suit us. For you, you are lucky to be able to afford to try both, and I'm sure all these discussions will be useful for helping those that can only manage to go with one or the other, to decide which camp to go into.


On THAT we can finally agree. Let it be done.

Had to google to get to your vimeo account which had that pârticular video, can I ask Ken what lens was on the gh4 at that moment? Was it a stabilised one?
This looks like a rolling shutter issue to me.

It sure looks like a classic rolling shutter effect.
Can it be related to the number of channels/ports the readout from the sensor is done?

Petter, I'm not sure what causes it, but I don't believe this issue is 4K related.

I say that because I do recall seeing this on my GH3 when shooting with the first gen 14-140 lens. I actually dismissed it as being 'heat wave' related since I generally saw it at extreme telephoto focal lengths when shooting distant subjects.

However then I was not doing an A/B, so I had no reference. Now that I have a reference (the AX100), I was able to see that this was an issue just related to the GH4/14-140 lens combination. It was easy to see since the AX100 was devoid of it shooting the same distance, same subject and same time.

In fact, as I think about it, I never had the issue with the RX10 either when using OIS.

What's interesting is that I tested the GH4 indoors, at the same focal length, and yet saw none of this 'heat wave' effect. I even moved the camera a bit to simulate a bit of a windy condition and I couldn't induce it indoors with the OIS on. But as soon as I'd shoot a distant object outdoors, the issue reappeared.

So perhaps it's somehow related to the spacing of the lens elements as they move to a position of shooting something at infinity. This together with the OIS, brings about this distracting effect. Interestingly, tripod mounted with the OIS off, the issue disappears.

So I can tell you under what conditions they occur, but I wouldn't pretend to know the exact cause.

Thanks for the information Ken.

With your description it do sound as if you are onto something regarding OIS and infinity focus together with the electronic shutter.

If so, one would think it should be quite easy for Panasonic to issue a firmware fix for the lens and/or the body.

Hi

There is also the human nature element at work here. We all shake when holding something, and it may be the case that someones frequency of shake may just exasperate the problem, like constructive interference. This may explain why the problem isn't universal for the same combination of lens and camera for everyone.

I wonder if Ken gave the camera to someone else to shoot if it would manifest itself the same? I know it sounds unlikely, but working in electronics and mechanics these are just the sort of odd interactions we see sometimes out in the field, so worth ruling out if nothing else.

Edit, in the instruction manual the following is printed:

The stabiliser function may not be effective in the
following cases.
– When there is a lot of jitter.
– When the zoom magnification is high.

So maybe it just shouldn't be expected to work at maximum zoom or if the operator is shaking too much?

Regards

Phil

I am also seeing this micro shake rolling shutter issue at telephoto on the 45-175 lens. I don't recall ever seeing this with the GH2 and this lens. I also have observed the IS occasionally stopping altogether for a few seconds with this lens on the GH4. Is OIS on the GH4 in any way dependent on the processor in the camera? The rolling shutter clearly has something to do with the rate of scan in 4K mode.

I am also seeing this micro shake rolling shutter issue at telephoto on the 45-175 lens. I don't recall ever seeing this with the GH2 and this lens. I also have observed the IS occasionally stopping altogether for a few seconds with this lens on the GH4. Is OIS on the GH4 in any way dependent on the processor in the camera? The rolling shutter clearly has something to do with the rate of scan in 4K mode.

Thanks Pat. I can't recall that on the GH2 either, just the GH3 & GH4. So now we have two confirmed reports, but worse, with 2 different lenses. So something is up here, just not sure what. I've used many cameras and many shooting with telephoto lenses and I can't recall ever seeing this issue. I certainly don't have a case of the 'shakes' as my videos don't depict any more or less shaking then the next guy. The whole point of OIS is to help when magnification increases. For the system to become so much less effective as well as adding significant artifacts, is not good.

Since I don't carry a tripod with me when shooting for pleasure, this is kind of a non-starter for me. For others who routinely use tripods, it's probably not a major issue as long as they turn OIS off, which you should do anyway with a tripod.

Hopefully Panasonic will issue a firmware update as more people experience this...and I'm sure they will as we see more shooting at telephoto lengths.

Does the shake in the image appear in 1080p and 4k?

Noa, I'm sorry, I never checked it at 1080p. But given my similar experience with the GH3, a 1080p camera, I'd bet the answer is yes.

I truly doubt this is only manifested in 4K. At any rate I've returned my GH4.

We've got yet another report on another forum with a GH4 and the 14-140 lens. As I predicted, this issue will begin to pop up more and more as more folks shoot at telephoto lengths with the GH4. The other person reporting this, like me, also saw it on the GH3. So I'm really wondering if Panasonic will really release a firmware fix for this seeing as they didn't fix it on the GH4.

As the other poster mentioned in another forum, it makes his 14-140 lens virtually unusable. That's a real non-starter for me as I discovered.

That's why it's always safe to wait for the early adopters to report :) I got my Sony rx10 also when it came out to find out afterwards the zoomspeed was next to useless while recording, it's a good thing I like about everything else on the camera so I"ll take that inconvenience for the next weddings to see if I still like it then and if it can find a permanent place in my gearbag, otherwise I"m selling it.

I was thinking of replacing my g6 with a gh4 so I have a gh3 and gh4 meaning same functionality, same accessories, but I also like the g6 a lot, a very small and powerfull camera, only a tad less sharp compared to my gh3 in 50p, strangly it's sharper in 25p.

I"ll just wait to see new reports appearing about the gh4, eventhough the ax100 is a great camera as well I find it too expensive for a handicam, it's price will come down for sure the next months.

Okay, I just tested 42 mm on the 14-42 ASPH 3.5-5.6 in 4K, 1080 60p and 30p. Did not notice the heat wave rolling shutter effect, but I did observe micro shaking in each mode while holding the camera very steady after a few seconds of recording. It's as if the camera-lens system decided IS didn't need to be active. When I resumed a slight pan IS would kick in again.

Hi

I am also seeing this micro shake rolling shutter issue at telephoto on the 45-175 lens. I don't recall ever seeing this with the GH2 and this lens. I also have observed the IS occasionally stopping altogether for a few seconds with this lens on the GH4. Is OIS on the GH4 in any way dependent on the processor in the camera? The rolling shutter clearly has something to do with the rate of scan in 4K mode.

Certainly seems to be related to rolling shutter. Rolling shutter in 1080P is much less so the effect is less as well. Is the wobble present if OIS is turned off but the camera still hand held and shaking?

Regards

Phil

Only lens I have with OIS that can be turned off is the Leica 45 f2.8. With this lens handheld as steady as I can possibly get it and OIS turned off, there is plenty of micro shaking. My age and 3 shots of espresso probably has something to do with that. All lenses seem to do fine with OIS on and camera resting in fixed position on the desk.

Regards

So here's my hypothesis: With Panasonic lenses with OIS turned on while mounted on the GH4 when lenses are in moderate to full telephoto focal lengths, OIS will intermittently stop being active, introducing micro shake and, in turn, a rolling shutter issue when recording in 4K. I will not have time to post examples in the next few weeks, but this seems like something that would be necessary for confirmation by a wider set of users. The intermittent OIS could be an issue at wide and normal focal lengths, I haven't looked for this.

Getting back to the AX100, two of the reasons I sprung for the GH4 instead of the AX100 were better dynamic range on the GH4 (specifically fewer blown highlights and better highlight roll off) and my perception that there was small amplitude, high-frequency shaking (or micro-shaking) on the ax100 in telephoto focal lengths even when OIS was turned on. Ken, I observed this in some of your earlier samples. Don't remember if you had the OIS in active mode or not. Of course, acceptable stabilization is to some degree in the eye of the beholder.

Is my sense that this is an issue with the AX100 shared by others? I have read both that AX100 OIS is effective and that it doesn't measure up to earlier Sony 1080p camcorders. Is there any consensus on these things?

I'm going to take a guess here (started viewing 4K on my freshly and cheaply built and "almost" stable 4K capable computer/"monitor"...).

The added detail of 4K starts to show EVERY flaw or glitch more noticeably as I played back 4K AT 4K... little things mostly, but 4K on a 39" full screen and you start to spot "little things". AND those little things could have been introduced at ANY stage in processing, from capture to edit to upload to playback... but definitely was seeing "things" at 4K resolution - I'm sure they would have been inconsequential at a greater viewing distance, but at 2-3 feet from a 39" screen... temporal issues (30P motion stutter/skip) were also more noticeable, in SOME cases, yet not others...

SO, I'll hypothesize that at least some of the "micro glitching" we see is because we now see the tiny little movements, and because the rest of the image is so sharp, our eyes can't "unsee" them. We are attracted to the flaws by the way they stick out, where in a "blurry" (AKA lower definition!) image those flaws are covered up.

I have wondered a bit about how a "glamour" video such as a wedding shoot will go with close ups showing EVERY detail, perhaps some of this will not be as desirable as a "dreamy" soft image?? Maybe sometimes detail is NOT everything it's cracked up to be? Perhaps we are not entirely meant to have "perfect vision" in all situations? I've always heard about how the eye is easily tricked and fooled, with 4K we may discover things we wish we hadn't? Ah, brave new frontier!




Just as an "aside", building a computer to work with 4K has been quite an adventure on the "bleeding edge", so many tiny things that have to be "tuned", tweaked, or adjusted to work as expected - this was definitely NOT an "easy" build, and has a way to go (haven't even started installing photo and video editing software YET... waiting for another, hopefully stable, set of RAM to arrive, first set only one stick out of 4 runs at rated speed!).

There's no doubt that the display looks a lot better than my aging 24" monitors, and I'm looking forward to editing on this huge screen instead of multiple monitors... and one of these days having an AX100 in hand to experiment with!

The "fun" of being on the bleeding edge is that sometimes things DON'T work as expected 100%, and it takes time to figure out workarounds or options or where our "system" failed and must be adjusted... this is NOT "buy and go" territory! I've said it before, at least in video/imaging, wings don't fall off and no one dies, but it's still "interesting"!

While I am looking forward to 4K, whether the AX100 or if an RX10M2 is announced soon or whatever, it is an adventure, and will take some getting used to. I will say my eyes very much appreciate 4K!

@Pat -

The OIS cannot possibly "measure up" to the BOSS "magic eyeball" system used in the 7xx (and some lower models as well) series Handycams - the floating gimbaled system was capable of smoothing out much larger motions than any prior system, but it would be HUGE if adapted to the AX100 with the larger lens and sensor block.

As I watched some user videos posted here again as a test of my 4K system/display, I was definitely thinking "time to pull out the old support rigs that have been collecting dust".... stability of the camera, along with "good camera technique" is once again an "issue". I'm thinking about shooting in windy conditions, handheld, all the "nightmare" shooting situations... stuff that was mostly left behind shooting a 7xx series BOSS equipped camera!

That said, for the most part, I'd expect the stabilization on the AX100 to be reasonably adequate if one understands the limitations. Myself, I'll go dust those "rigs"! And keep a 7xx series camera around for when it's a better "tool"!

In my PC there are a INTEL Core i7 980X 3.33Ghz 12MB processor and NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 video card. Do you think they are sufficient to edit 4K files of AX100?
Thanks for some infos.

Getting back to the AX100, two of the reasons I sprung for the GH4 instead of the AX100 were better dynamic range on the GH4 (specifically fewer blown highlights and better highlight roll off) and my perception that there was small amplitude, high-frequency shaking (or micro-shaking) on the ax100 in telephoto focal lengths even when OIS was turned on. Ken, I observed this in some of your earlier samples. Don't remember if you had the OIS in active mode or not. Of course, acceptable stabilization is to some degree in the eye of the beholder.

Is my sense that this is an issue with the AX100 shared by others? I have read both that AX100 OIS is effective and that it doesn't measure up to earlier Sony 1080p camcorders. Is there any consensus on these things?

Pat, to be honest, in my A/Bs I actually could not say that the GH4 had better DR. I looked for it, but didn't see it. If either camera has an advantage here, it is not, IMO, a deal maker or deal breaker.

All my early tele shots were with Standard OIS. I was reluctant to use Active, which is definitely better than Standard, for fear of losing resolution. As time has gone on, I think that fear was unwarranted and I'm using it more than I had. I did not use Active in my A/Bs with the GH4, just as a point of information.

However, although the OIS on the Sony is not as good as the BOSS system they use with their small sensor cameras, I'll take it every day of the week over what I've seen in the GH4's OIS with tele lenses. The heat wave effect is just horrible, there's no other way to put it.

I don't believe I've seen any wave of AX100 owners that are unhappy with their cameras because of the OIS. It's very usable and fairly effective, if not as effective, as the better OIS implementations by Sony in their small cams.

So I'd much prefer an OIS that's somewhat less effective, but largely artifact-free, than one that has this 'heat wave' effect. IMO, that's just unusable.

Keep in mind that the only reason that Sony didn't put in the more effective OIS (at least this is the prevailing theory that makes sense) system in the AX100 is because the sensor and lens assembly is so much larger than in their small sensor cams.

SO, I'll hypothesize that at least some of the "micro glitching" we see is because we now see the tiny little movements, and because the rest of the image is so sharp, our eyes can't "unsee" them. We are attracted to the flaws by the way they stick out, where in a "blurry" (AKA lower definition!) image those flaws are covered up.



Dave, there's micro-glitching and there's the 'heat wave' effect. Two very different effects. IMO, 4K has nothing to do with the heat wave effect. I and others have seen it with the GH3 in good ol' HD.

Add to that the fact that the AX100 is free of this heat wave effect and I've come to the conclusion this is a 'Panasonic exclusive'.

Relating to your observations about 30p, I just bought a Toshiba 4K laptop. I will be using this as my main computer editor, either connected to an external 4K monitor (the 24" Dell or the 28" Samsung...if the Samsung ever comes off of back order status) or on its own 15.6" 4K screen, when away from home.

What's interesting about the Toshiba 4K laptop, is it has a native refresh rate of 60p. As a result, playing 4K files on it look very much like my 64" plasma with the frame doubler in effect. It's quite smooth and the individually calibrated 'Technicolor' screen is just awesome. This is why I've always implored anyone watching AX100 4K 30p files on their HDTV, directly from the camera, to engage frame rate doubling on their HDTV. It just makes for a so much smoother experience.

@Pat -

The OIS cannot possibly "measure up" to the BOSS "magic eyeball" system used in the 7xx (and some lower models as well) series Handycams - the floating gimbaled system was capable of smoothing out much larger motions than any prior system, but it would be HUGE if adapted to the AX100 with the larger lens and sensor block.

As I watched some user videos posted here again as a test of my 4K system/display, I was definitely thinking "time to pull out the old support rigs that have been collecting dust".... stability of the camera, along with "good camera technique" is once again an "issue". I'm thinking about shooting in windy conditions, handheld, all the "nightmare" shooting situations... stuff that was mostly left behind shooting a 7xx series BOSS equipped camera!

That said, for the most part, I'd expect the stabilization on the AX100 to be reasonably adequate if one understands the limitations. Myself, I'll go dust those "rigs"! And keep a 7xx series camera around for when it's a better "tool"!

Dave, I'm in the market for a light weight tripod for exactly that reason. I won't use it most of the time, but I'll have it for those windy days...like today!

Hey Ken, did you get my email? I'll be in your neck of woods tomorrow, and i'll have my lightweight tripod :)

Darren, no, never got a PM.

Which tripod do you use?

Edit: We actually moved from Plainview, further out on the L.I. about a year ago. I never actually updated my profile.

The OIS cannot possibly "measure up" to the BOSS "magic eyeball" system used in the 7xx (and some lower models as well) series Handycams - the floating gimbaled system was capable of smoothing out much larger motions than any prior system, but it would be HUGE if adapted to the AX100 with the larger lens and sensor block.

A bit off topic but since we are talking about stabilization, jitter and rolling shutter when zoomed in below a short clip made with my sony cx730 fully zoomed in, just to see the effect of the "magic eyeball".

The first clip was taken under time pressure, so I could keep it more steady if I can take my time but considering the circumstances I"m happy with that shot, notice how fast the camera the camera can zoom in, re-adjusts the whitebalance and exposure and gets the focus right, all of those where in automode at that time.

One question to ax100 owners, is the ax100 able to zoom in that fast? Just asking because Sony seemed to make some changes in that area, like on my rx10, for whatever reason. The rx10 can zoom faster but only in standby mode so it's a build in restriction.
https://vimeo.com/93959199
Here's another one where I could take my time to handhold it steady.
https://vimeo.com/69828042

Don't have the camera yet, but the manual states, "The zoom speed will become a little slower during movie recording."

Misunderstanding or wrong purchase?

I have just get the Sony Shoe adapter because I need to plug a led light or an additional mic. on AX100. This is the light: 312AS Bi-Color Changing Dimmable LED Video DSLR Camera Light Panel 3200k~5600k | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/312AS-Bi-Color-Changing-Dimmable-LED-Video-DSLR-Camera-Light-Panel-3200k-5600k-/181363943544?pt=UK_Photography_StudioEquipment_RL&hash=item2a3a222878)

On this forum you have told me that adapter is ok if I like to plug that light. Today I have get it: ADP-MAC- SONY MULTI INTERFACE SHOE ADAPTER for active interface accessories | eBay (http://www.ebay.it/itm/ADP-MAC-SONY-MULTI-INTERFACE-SHOE-ADAPTER-for-active-interface-accessories-/231087504565?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35cde37cb5)
but I cannot plug my led light and every other item like additional microphone because they have bigger shoes and they cannot fit on the Sony adapter shoe, that shoe is too much narrow.
Is it a wrong purchase? Do they have to send me another adapter; is it not the right adapter?
Thanks for some info.

There are several adapters so you need to get the correct one for your needs. I do not use ANY of them so you will need to check yourself what you need. There are some that just raise the shoe above the camera body ( I think that is the one you have) and then there is one that converts to the larger shoe. YOU need to check but I think it is the ADP-MAA

Ron Evans

Noa, the timing for the AX100 from full wide to full telephoto is as follows from my own testing:

* Camera in standby- approximately 3 seconds
* Camera recording- just under 5 seconds

It's quite possible that camcorders with larger lenses & sensors are more difficult to zoom at a very high rate of speed.