Have a 1 hour 30 minute soccer game shot 4k with ax100 and need to get it on Blu-ray with the least amount of wasted time. Here's what I've tried on an i7 980 12gb ram:
Tmpgenc Authoring works 5. Dragged the 4K files into the tmpgenc project and hit go. The timer said 5 hours to go jeez. anyway it croaked 3 hrs into the procedure.
Next attempt, I pulled the 4k files into Edius 7 and made an 1920x1080 mpeg2 with a 25 bitrate that took 1 hour thirty minutes. Then dragged that file into tmpgenc and another hour and a half later I've got a 12gb blu-ray disc ready for duplication
Any other ways?

That was yesterday
Today I shot another match and this time engaged dual record to see what the 1280mp4 the camera will produce along side the 4k. Looks like.... dvd quality straight off the camso thats a no go

Encoding times for a couple of hours of 4k (xavc-s) to BluRay playable disc are crushing even on an i7 980 which is a beast really. We're talking 5 - 7 hours
Think I'll starting using avchd again and see what the ax100 produces in the way of improved video from my pre-ax100 era.

btw The battery lasts long enough to fill a 64gb card with 2 hrs of 4k with a bit of reserve

Bruce,a 4K file from my FDR-AX1, 150Mbps 60P XAVC-S will encode to a Bluray preset,m2ts file from Edius Pro7.31 1920x1080 60i project using Quicksync on my i7 4790K in about realtime. Take file to DVDArchitect which will need to demux the audio and will create an iso file in about 25mins.Burn in IMGBurn to 4x disc in about 40mins. I use this worklow for all my projects whether just the FDR-AX1 or multicam with other HD cams.

Ron Evans

Thanks for the tip quicksync Ron quicksync is a new concept for me I have use a gtx760 2gb
Is that a bit like cuda encoding which seems usable for effects but i don't use effects much, mostly straight cuts
can you say more about "a Bluray preset,m2ts file from Edius Pro7.31" which I also use edius that is. Have you created that preset on timeline or do you export to file using a sony avchd preset?
Thanks
Bruce

This is the link Intel® Quick Sync Video (http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/quick-sync-video/quick-sync-video-general.html) for quicksync. Only included in certain CPU's with integrated graphics and unfortunatley not yours. I do not use much other than cuts too and do not have a GPU installed on my PC just use the integrated one in the i7 4790K. The Bluray preset is a standard EDius preset for AVC output and then there is a check box in the output window to use hardware acceleration(ie quicksync). This produces a program stream hence the need for DVDArchitect to demux the audio for authoring.

Ron Evans

Price dropped to 1,798 at B&H.

Sony FDR-AX100 4K Ultra HD Camcorder FDRAX100/B B&H Photo Video

I am interested in the workflow for taking 4K video and down sampling it to 1920X1080P. Is this something that can be done in camera? If so what would be the best workflow to accomplish this?
Thanks,
Denny

I just drop the 4k native file into a 1080p 25p project in Edius 7 and that's it.

I do the same with 3840x2160 60P files from my FDR-AX1. Just place on a 60i timeline in Edius with the files from my NX5U and NX30U. Edius just downscales to the project settings.

Ron Evans

Is it possible to downscale the 4K files within the camcorder?
Denny

You can output sd realtime via the mini usb but it is only composite SD quality
Other options via the HDMI port during playback or recording.

Is it possible to downscale the 4K files within the camcorder?
Denny

Downscale to what and why? You can shoot regular HD with this camera as well.

I am trying to determine whether the down scaled HD from 4K is exactly the same as the HD shot in the camcorder. This along with other issues is helping me decide if I am going with the CX900 or the AX100.
I do thank you all for the input.
Denny

I guess you don't want the headache of bigger files that 4K produce then?

4K downscaled to 1080p will definitely be crystal clear as it will fill all the lines in a 1080p frame. I don't think filming in 1080p on it's own would look as good as 4K downscaled.

Having said that ... Noa from your experience when you're editing 4K in your NLE, is there significant lag or anything? and how much space would 1 hour of footage say from a ceremoney take up on your memory card / hard drive in 4K from the AX100?

Dennis -

If what you're asking is whether the camera can downconvert on export like some HD cameras, I don't believe that's an option, unless you did something via the HDMI as some are suggesting? You should be able to import the 4K clips into most NLE's, and they take a little more horsepower to process, but that's just the penalty for better quality!

I know this thread is one of the most massive (ever?!), but to condense a bit of what users are finding... 4K is more detailed (and generally seems to look better even on 1080 screens) than the 1080/60p XAVCS, but there are a couple reports that the 2.0 firmware makes the differences less noticeable - I hope to test this before I push the update onto my camera... along with the RX10 firmware update that adds 1080/60p XAVCS... I am hopeful that the latest tweaks will bring the image quality close to the 4K level... still trying to devise a quick and dirty but repeatable test to do a "before/after" comparison.

I do know that even the first tests I ran of the "old" AVCHD 1080/60p/28Mbps compared to the XAVCS 1080/60p/50Mbps were pretty convincing that the latter was preferable to the eye... and the 4K was even more preferable, even at 30p (I later sorted out that you can't let the camera decide the shutter speed if you want to avoid stutter!). I'm hoping the XAVCS 1080 will be "good enough" for most situations... just to keep the RX10 "current"!

The CX900 simply doesn't have the option to shoot in 4K, and if you don't "need" it, you "could" skip it. HOWEVER, you probably won't save "much", and if you even think you "might' want to fiddle with 4K, either for testing, or to use the additional resolution to pan/scan/crop while maintaining HD resolution... the AX100 has the advantage.

Honestly after shooting a bit of 4K, and putting a 4k capable computer system together (even if it's "only" 30p), I would find it hard to justify an "HD" camera purchase... but I'll reserve comment until I've seen what the higher bitrate XAVCS "tweaks" can do - there is obviously some "headroom to create "better" HD than what you typically get from a "consumer" camera, and Sony seems to be squeezing a lot out of this particular sensor/processor combo. I'd still recommend a slightly used/discounted AX100 if you can find one, and you can ALWAYS set it to shoot "HD" with the press of a couple onscreen buttons, should you desire!

James -

I just stuck a 128GB card into the AX100, and the camera believes that it can shoot approx 4 hours and 30 minutes on that card... I'm sure that varies a bit, but gives you some idea of what to expect. I come up at roughly 28.4G per hour with that rate - but then again, I've only found 64 and 128G SDXC cards when I went looking... Somehow I thought there were 32G SDXC cards, but not finding any?? You need XC cards for the XAVCS...


I put a new "state of the art" (sort of, it's a "budget" build!) desktop together, primarily to be able to handle 4K, I think the editing would depend somewhat on patience and expectations. I knew that my several year old system was stumbling ing a bit on 28Mbps AVCHD anyway, so it was logical to factor in a computer upgrade...

On the flip side of that, getting everything working smoothly has been an adventure - I still need to put a few bug reports in to Intel that need addressing, and see if I can get tweaked drivers... 4K is definitely a "bleeding edge" proposition, NOT an "everything works out of the box" one, IMO! Totally WORTH IT once you see stills and video on a 4K display...

Having said that ... Noa from your experience when you're editing 4K in your NLE, is there significant lag or anything? and how much space would 1 hour of footage say from a ceremoney take up on your memory card / hard drive in 4K from the AX100?

When I switch on my camera with a 64gb card in it it says there is 2 hours and 17 minutes of remaining recording time.
I have a i7 3770 processor and as long as I have one stream of 4k footage editing is in realtime, no stutter, even when applying colorcorrection to the clip, only when I apply the stabiliser filter it takes longer to calculate and when I cut clips, press play and scroll on the timeline there is a small lag compared to avchd footage, with avchd everything is snappier but it is still fast enough for regular editing.
When I have one 4K and 2 avchd clips in a multicam that is also still realtime, only when I add a second 4k stream the fun is over and there is noticeable stutter.
Exporting 4k files to a 1080p is also very quick, I believe twice realtime as edius is using the onboard gpu for those renders.

I am trying to determine whether the down scaled HD from 4K is exactly the same as the HD shot in the camcorder.

4k downscaled in a NLE will have more detail though 1080p is still plenty sharp, a few 4K advantages are:
You can crop in a 1080p project without loss of detail, this enables you to reframe shots.
You can extract a frame out of your shots that is far more detailed when you plan to use it on a dvdboxprint.
You can stabilise clips in a 1080p project without loss of image detail.
4k downscaled to 1080p has more detail then shooting in 1080p.
4k downscaled to 1080p has less visible noise because the noise gets smaller as well.

If those advantages is not what you need, you are better of with the ax900, it will take some time before you can burn your 4k files on a 4k blu-ray disc and have a 4k player to play them on your 4k tv at a affordable price. Otoh you can shoot 4K now and render to 1080p but also render a 4k file that you can keep until 4K playback becomes a norm, everything you shoot now could be watched in 4k even if it takes a few years for you to adopt. In that way you can futureproof your films if you plan to one day see them in the highest quality possible and by the time you can do that 8K will be out and we can have the same discussion again :).

I guess you don't want the headache of bigger files that 4K produce then?

4K files are not necessarily bigger then 1080p files, sony uses it's 50mbs XAVCS codec for 4K and 1080p. Panasonic with their gh4 has a 100mbs codec for 4k but even a up to 200mbs codec for 1080p so there 1080p files could be bigger then 4k files.

Thank you gentlemen for your responses. Based on everything I have learned here, I think that the AX100 4K is the way I am going to go. In terms of image quality, and "Future Proofing" the purchase it is really a no brainer. Especially with the price drop at B&H on this camcorder.

Thanks again,
Denny
Sony is coming out with a pair of programs called Catalyst Browse and Catalyst Prepare to convert the files to better import. This site looks interesting http://www.videoguys.com/Guide/RE/0x459cf66cd2fc5bc65ad18eed7aff333f/Sony+Announces+New+Line+of+Media+Preparation+Applications/0xcae9a48bd61eeee02de71880169d7582.aspx

Thank you Dave & Noa for the response.

Any chance one of you can be generous enough to upload a few raw files from your AX100 for me to have a fiddle with in Sony Vegas in a 1080p timeline ?

I just bought one of these and the instructions on the sony site regarding finding my firmware version are a bit misleading.....they say to look under general settings in the menu...but I can't seem to find that. How do you find the current firmware version?

I am interested in the workflow for taking 4K video and down sampling it to 1920X1080P. Is this something that can be done in camera? If so what would be the best workflow to accomplish this?
Thanks,
Denny

Dennis,
I haven't sent any of my 4K footage to Blu-Ray yet, mostly just stock-piling it for now. But, I did test the method I have been using for resizing HD to SD. Someone on here recommended using VirtualDub (free) to resize video, saying that Sony Vegas wasn't very good at that function. So, I tried with some 4K and what I did was bring my 4K into Vegas timeline and then render out as an uncompressed .avi file. Then I open VirtualDub and import that (huge) .avi and go to the filter section and choose resize, then input the SD size I want. VirtualDub creates the new file, and that's what I use for burning the DVD. I don't know if this is the best way or not, but going from 4K to SD worked and I would assume going from 4K to HD will work fine. Having said all that, I want to go back and see if Vegas really does a worse job of it. I did not get any "wow" factor when I viewed the down-converted 4K to SD. Still looked like regular SD to me.

It sounds like most guys here are just letting their NLE do the conversion for them and are happy with that.

The HDMI output does not output 4K during recording, but will output 4K during playback, IF it is connected to something that can handle the 4K. I don't have any 4K monitor to see for myself.

I have a BMD Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 and have found that the camera HDMI does output during record if in any mode other than 4K, including 1280x720 120fps mode. I have contacted Sony to see what the HDMI output is and they wouldn't tell me. I'd think that if it were uncompressed, that would be a selling point for the camera, so since they aren't saying, I'm guessing it is not uncompressed.

Canon XF305 manual does not say what the output of the SDI/HDMI ports are either. But sometime after the camera was released, Canon published a series of white papers and in one of them, they give out the specs for these ports, so maybe the info will come out about the AX100 sometime later.

Mark

I just bought one of these and the instructions on the sony site regarding finding my firmware version are a bit misleading.....they say to look under general settings in the menu...but I can't seem to find that. How do you find the current firmware version?

Len,

The instructions are wrong in that regard. There's no way to view the version info in version 1.0 firmware. During the upgrade process, but before the point of no return, the firmware installer will connect to your camera via USB and will display your current version number on the screen for you. Once you proceed and get the new version installed, you will then be able to view your version number from the camera's menu, like it says. Go for it.

Mark

I also notice that there is only one small metal loop on the strap that maybe a camera strap could be attached...does anyone have any recommendations for a carrying strap for this camcorder?...(so far loving this camera...I've owned many Sony camcorders over the years and like how they've pretty much got the form factor mastered with the right amount of hard buttons, features, and absence of useless features that used to crowd consumer camcorders....ok...it's just that dumb location of the focus magnifier button)

Thank you Mark!

Price dropped to 1,798 at B&H.

Sony FDR-AX100 4K Ultra HD Camcorder FDRAX100/B B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1022653-REG/sony_fdrax100_b_hdr_ax100_full_hd_handycam.html)

Walked into Futureshop with the B&H website on my iPad and bought it with a further 10% reduction...also got an SD card marked $229 for $180

I also notice that there is only one small metal loop on the strap that maybe a camera strap could be attached...does anyone have any recommendations for a carrying strap for this camcorder?...

What I am looking for is a way to have a strap around my neck so I can hold the camera out from me just far enough to allow some freedom of movement while still close enough that I can see the LCD good. Currently using the Peak Design leash camera strap. I attach it to the single ring on the hand grip and then to the tripod attach point, with the purchase of the screw-in ring. There are still some twisting forces to deal with, but it's better than having both ends of the neck strap attached to the single point at the hand grip.

Mark

OK...now that I've shot some 4k footage how do I get it into my Imac for editing? (All I've seen so far on the forum is some mac vs. pc flaming)...Is there a program that I need to convert it to HD?, and then will these files work in Imovie?....or?

As a three decade commercial still photographer, I'll be the first to say that the complexities of video make still photography and Photoshop look like paint by numbers. I have shot some pretty nice video over the past thirty years, but getting serious about it, in the current technical environment, is daunting. I'm slowly getting up to speed but things seem to advance so quickly, and the options appear infinite from my fledgling position.

Because of my relationships with major camera producers, I can get my hands on most any piece of gear for a few days for testing. Last week I spent a few days with the Sony AX-100. B&H has pages of glowing reviews from purchasers that, on their own, would entice a perspective purchaser over the edge. Shooting with the 100 and comparing it to the reviews, makes me realize how relative impressions are. While the 100 is a technological marvel in terms of what comes in a small $1800 package, closer scrutiny reveals very obvious deficiencies. I was prepared (by the capable reviewers here) for the rolling shutter and artifacting. What took me by surprise was the very mediocre dynamic range. Shooting average scenes the camera does fine, but try to capture a composition that includes sunlit green landscape and something like a bride strolling through it, not only won't it capture any detail in her dress, the color fringing and outright posterization in the brightest areas was extremely disappointing.

My old XHA1 had far more dynamic range than this new camera. While my fiddling with the AX100 was more out of curiosity, seeing what 4K was all about and exploring new codecs and frame rates, it convinced me that I needed to move way up the line to get anything that would come close to meeting my expectations. I realize it's not apples to apples (more like apples to Ferrari's) but I think I'm going to cut my teeth with a new Sony PXW-180.

Can you post some examples/samples of these "obvious deficiencies"? I'm reviewing some AX100 stuff I've shot, and I don't have ANY of the supposed troubles you're speaking of. It takes some time to get a handle on getting the best results from this camera, and handling the 4K video and workflow takes a bit as well, but these are not camera deficiencies, just adjustments to get the best results.

Yes, RS is a factor, as it is on almost every CMOS sensor based camera - it is a bit worse when in 4K modes, but even there you can work around it for some purposes. We have addressed certain other types of artifacting being the result of improper shutter speeds, or system issues unrelated to the camera (if your computer system is NOT 4K capable, you'll get lots of "interesting" results unrelated to the camera...). Other than those, you won't find a camera shooting sharper images anywhere close to this price point.

Color fringing, posterization, no "detail"... somehow sounds more like there is a problem either with the camera you used, or with your process, as these are NOT things I'm seeing with the AX100 - it's not flawless, but it's quite good, and properly handled should be a significant step up from an XHA1...

I like this camera so much, I sold my 3 chip camera. I won't repeat the positive attributes. It is the best bang for the buck.

Knowledge of exposure is necessary and I don't think an amateur will grasp the concept using this camera right out of the box. There is no perfect camera but the 1" sensor produces......... Beautiful DOF.

I use my AX100 recording 4K for stage shows on a wide shot as a 'safety' shot, and our other cameras are Panasonic AG130 and 160's. When both the AX100 and the wide Panasonic have been beside each other you can definitely see that the Panasonic have about 2 stops more dynamic range than the AX100.

As soon as you set up for spotlight use, so as not to blow out highlights, you can easily lose most of the rest of the a dark stage on the AX100. (it blows out quite easily).

However, in post, the AX100 XAVC S 4k footage can be tweaked up a VERY long way without objectionable noise, much more than the Panasonic AVCHD footage.

I just did this yesterday actually, it amazed me how far I could lift footage to match the Panasonics, and stay virtually noise free.

Cheers,

Vaughan

Anyone who has shot Sony is aware they can tend to over expose and that adjusting the AutoExposure setting a tad to the negative is almost mandatory, that would probably bring back detail in the "highs" and reduce any blowout. As noted, there is usually a fair amount of detail in the shadows that can be pulled out. Got to dig it out in post, but...

I know that the DRO function in the RX10 and RX100 allows you to flatten the dynamic range by adjusting the settings so you get more range to work with... the range is there... a similar function is missing in the AX100, but could probably be implemented in the firmware were there a demand for it - not sure the processor would be able to do it on the fly for 4K, but it does for high bitrate 1080p.

It is funny how some people "try" the AX100 and declare it "deficient", while those who take a little time to work with it find it does a pretty decent job under many shooting scenarios... We've debunked many of the supposed "flaws" on this extensive thread, but it would take a day or two to dig through to find the "fixes"!!

If I took the first "results" of shooting and processing 4K, I'd have decided it wasn't "there" either, but with time and effort to get a working 4K computer system and figuring out how to tweak the camera for best results, I can now get reliably stunning results... wouldn't trade the AX100 for any other camera I've had along the way

I agree Dave, the camera will easily blowout, so you need to be careful.

As has been said it is amazing what can be done with the footage in post. In post I can brighten or darken footage from camera or add contrast and it looks fabulous.

Thanks for your insight guys. I factored my inexperience into the results, just didn't have the unit long enough to explore more techniques. The last week I've been testing a C100, partly because I have every lens Canon makes from the 800mm down. Still leaning toward the Sony PXW-180 I think.

Couldn't agree with Dave's comments more. You can't pick up the AX100 and declare it incompetent within a few hours or 2 days. You need to learn how to get the most out of it and you will most certainly need to use the manual controls.

But used properly, you just can't find a better 4K picture anywhere near this price point. We just got back from Europe and I was shaking my head at the output quality...amazing. :)

Ken, the quality of the images is phenomenal indeed. I hate editing the 4K as it really slows things down, but the footage looks so good and is SO tweakable. Great camera.

I find it's tricky getting the exposure right, from my previous cams I tend to overexpose and that is not necessary with this cam and in fact is not advisable because as Dave pointed out these Sony's tend to be a bit hot out of the box.

Here's some of the first footage I shot with this camera(except opening skyline shot which was done on a Sony Nex7)....auto mode with challenging live performances and stage lighting....sound is with onboard mic.. 4K footage was downconverted to HD before editing...
Accordion Noir Fest 2014 on Vimeo

As has been said it is amazing what can be done with the footage in post. In post I can brighten or darken footage from camera or add contrast and it looks fabulous.

I mentioned it in this post: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-event-videography-techniques/524279-how-give-your-camera-some-extra-stops-dr.html that I was surprised how easy it was to pull back detail from underexposed areas without any noticeable sideeffects. Using this technique does slow down realtime preview considerably and increases render times but I only switch on the layers that provide this function when I render the footage, otherwise, after I applied the effect I leave the layer disabled to get real time edit performance. The 50mbs codec holds up remarkably well when pushed in post.

The AX100 in Bogota:

Sony FDR AX100 4K Video: Seeing Bogota from Mount Monserrate and Below on Vimeo

Trip up and down the mountain by tram, some acrobatics, and music.

OK, everyone "report" this message to remind Chris to give the AX100 it's own sub forum!

Hey Chris, how about that form for these now not so new cameras ("new" replacements might be announced soon!). Probably need a place for these 1" class cameras, the AX100, X70, RX10 and RX100, and/or a "4K" section both options are viable, as all the above are using the same sensor and XAVCS, so they are related...

A 4K section is also viable, as there will be plenty to learn and share about 4K/UHD capture, post processing, and hopefully delivery!

Whatever the structure, both of these subforum suggestions are worth sorting out, there's enough on this never ending AX100 thread to be a subforum all by itself... and 4K is roaring down upon us, best to get ahead of it!

OK, everyone "report" this message to remind Chris to give the AX100 it's own sub forum!

Perfect Dave; how do you report a message?

I said the same thing about 50 pages back.

Sony FDR AX100 4K Video: The Streets of Central Bogota on Vimeo

Perfect Dave; how do you report a message?

I said the same thing about 50 pages back.

I didn't know either, but it's the little red/white triangle at the bottom left. It says it's supposed to be used for spam or offensive posts, but I did it. Hope that request wasn't a rhetorical one...

... done ...."Report Post" #1740 from this thread.....

Nope, I wanted to remind Chris the AX100 community needs it's own playground <wink>.

I self reported once I posted, so Chris knows what I'm up to!

Suggested a "4K" area and a section for these 1" class Sony cameras (AX100, X70, RX series Cybershots).

OK, everyone "report" this message to remind Chris to give the AX100 it's own sub forum! That was an excellent tactic, Dave -- brilliantly executed too. Well done, sir.

A 4K section is also viable, as there will be plenty to learn and share about 4K/UHD capture, post processing, and hopefully delivery! We've had that for awhile:

HD and UHD ( 2K+ ) Digital Cinema Forum at DV Info Net (http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/hd-uhd-2k-digital-cinema/)

...but perhaps it needs to be re-branded and re-positioned.

BTW - it's largely been reported in this thread that all CMOS sensors exhibit rolling shutter. This is not strictly true - for example the Sony F55 features a global shutter. The sensor was designed from the ground up for all pixels to be read out at the same time. Of course you pay for that. Roughly $29k at B&H. Don't expect to see global shutters at this price point any time soon.

Don't expect to see global shutters at this price point any time soon.

The black magic 4K camera has global shutter and is just a bit more expensive then the ax100.

BTW - it's largely been reported in this thread that all CMOS sensors exhibit rolling shutter. This is not strictly true - for example the Sony F55 features a global shutter. The sensor was designed from the ground up for all pixels to be read out at the same time. Of course you pay for that. Roughly $29k at B&H. Don't expect to see global shutters at this price point any time soon.

I saw a YouTube video that shows a good example of rolling shutter and then the same footage of it after being corrected in FCP... It still wasn't perfect but it improved it quite a lot....

Len - Thanks for pointing out that FCPX can help correct for rolling shutter. Seems to me I heard this before but obviously forgot about it.

I've been struggling with what next cam to get and that problem been high up on my deal-breaker list; consequently, the short list is really short. And getting shorter as the 3CCDs have become really few and far between in addition to some that have other compromise issues, low light capability being one of them.

Not asking for perfection, just some improvement. Some cams apparently have built-in software that try to help with rolling shutter and I wonder if combined with FCPX there would be a greater improvement.

As an aside, when FCPX added multicam to it's capability I tried it out with a piano player and it was unbelievable how well it worked. Very first time just basically drag-and-drop the B-cam clips and bingo! Matched up with the audio perfectly!

Thanks to your post I'll be on the lookout for more information about the FCPX rolling shutter correction now.