Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yup. Small-ish form factor. Large sensor. Proper audio controls. Interchangeable lenses/mounts. 1080p backbone with a healthy codec/data-rate. All for under $10k.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

This is just my opinion, but I doubt very much Canon is going to announce a 4K camera. Anyone who knows Canon, and more importantly their history, knows that Canon is a very conservative company. But being conservative isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Even though RED has successfully changed the product landscape of the electronic's world, Canon isn't going to compete with RED directly. They're competing with Panasonic and Sony. Which means they're competing with the F3 and the FS100. I would look at those cameras and their configurations to gain an insight into what Canon's up to.

Canon is smart by coming to the party late. This is their history. What this gives them is an insight into how to make a better product. They examine the weaknesses of their competitors products and develop something that is unique enough to compete (and steal market share). The VX1000 jolted the world. But that XL1 stole the show. Panasonic proved 24p was available for the masses. Canon coupled it with true 16x9 chips (even though the XL2 was a sales disappointment). The HVX brought HD down from heaven, but Canon's H1 resolution was hand down superior (remember the old 24F vs 24P arguments of yore?).

So what are the weaknesses of the competitors?

F3 is a tough camera to beat. In fact, the F3 is awesome! But it's expensive. So price is where Canon can compete by keeping it in the $10k sweet spot.

FS100 was a good first step by Panasonic. But the sensor is a little too small, the mount is limiting, and the codec is a little weak. But the price rocks. So I expect Canon to use their badass chip foundry mojo to introduce a custom large-format sensor (probably APS-C or APS-H) coupled with a healthy codec (of which flavor i have no clue).

Anyway. Just my thoughts.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Problem for Canon is, a large-sensor 1080p camera is hardly new or earth-shattering at this point -- not even a cheap one is novel, as Sony will have a 24p model, the VG20, at about $2K. Nothing less than 4K would be exciting. And 50-Mbps MPEG2 for 4K? Utter crappola. Canon needs to license AVC Ultra or maybe even consider something mature and proven, like 12-bit CineForm RAW.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Regarding the next 5D, the only sure fire predictions are better noise reduction, more AF points, and improved AF. Why? Because Nikon's full frame competitive model currently wins in those areas.

Find other specs where Nikon wins on the photo front and you can bet that Canon will tweak those areas.

As to video features, Nikon is behind. What Canon does for video is anybody's guess.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Sorry Robert, but the FS100 is the consumer version of the Sony F3. The Panasonic camera is the AF100/101. I agree with your other comments though. :)

Daniel Weber

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Looking forward to this...!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Based on what little is known (and what has been said here already) I think the following assumptions are fairly safe:

-Given the timing of the announcement, location at Paramount, and Canon's history, it is a revolutionary new camera announcement and will be aimed at the creative indie filmmaker since they already have the XA, XH, and XF series for corporate/event video. The big-budget studio arena is crowded with $50-100k competitors and Canon's never really had a seat at that table anyway. The $3-10k segment has some great offerings from Sony and Panasonic, but all have their flaws as well. Canon has had just enough time to design a model that will one-up the competition.

-It will be a large-format sensor - probably APS-C to reduce heat build-up - and with the DIGIC 5 processor. The 3x 1/3" chip market is already flooded and practically obsolete for digital filmmaking moving forward. Larger sensors with better low light & shallow DOF are what creative filmmakers want.

-It will have interchangeable lenses. Canon already has a huge offering of great glass; with the discontinuation of the XL-H1 it makes sense that they would want to sell a camcorder to put behind their lenses. The only question here is: will it have an EF or PL mount? I think it will be EF.

-It will have full manual controls, but will it be through physical buttons/dials, or via touchscreen?

Other stuff like codec, bitrate, features, I/O connectors, storage medium, etc. remains to be seen, but my gut feeling is that it will be designed to compete with the AF100, FS100, and Scarlet.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Earth shattering would be F3 specs at an FS100 price. At this point in time, having listened to the professional consumers, Canon could easily make earth shattering news by going through the isles with their shopping cart selecting the best features of all. One that stands out in my mind is not needing to purchase an external recorder, 444 recording internal, dual cheap memory, large optical or HD monitor, great imaging chip, and could dual configure to shoulder or front (think about that one) . I think all of us would love to push that buggy, we could easily pick out a dream camcorder. Perhaps Canon has.

What is the difference between the F3 and FS 100 electronics wise ?? probably a $ 1000 worth of components and better software and maybe some licensing. In reality, I bet the F3's actual cost is not far from the FS 100. Maybe Canon will target this gap.


A new sensor technology is probably going to be the big bang on the 3rd, perhaps the huge increase in dynamic range rumors are true ! ! !

http://www.canon.com/news/2011/sep15e.html

"Through the further development of distinctive CMOS image sensors, Canon will break new ground in the world of new image expression, in the areas of still images as well as video".

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Daniel, the FS100 is hardly a consumer camera. It's professional all the way.
Some of the guesses as to the nature of the announcement are really becoming pie-in the-sky. I think some of you are setting yourselves up for a big disappointment. It's OK to dream and all, but there's just not enough info for any type of serious discussion.
I'm leaning toward the announcement having something to do with the "Imagina8ion" contest. That way, if the announcment is on the contest, I'll expect as much. But if it is a new whiz-bang camera, then the announcement will exceed my expectations.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I agree Glen, I was mainly speaking of price. I would love to own the FS 100 and have thought several times about it but held off.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Even the price is hardly consumer, as I just bought one. But it's an exciting piece of equipment. After awhile, you can get stale working with the typical 3-chip video camera. But this large sensor cam opens up a whole new world of creative possibilities.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

So no one thinks 3D, eh? :)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I think its safe to say that Canon, by the wording on the announcement..."Global"....and the event being held at Paramount, is being very bold.......which means to me that they are going to have something or somethings that are really Bold in the world of cinematography. Also, in the past Canon has held back a bit so as not to jeopardize their relationship with Sony & Panasonic (lenses).....from what I understand, that relationship is over so I expect that Canon is not going to hold back any more.....which is great for all of us ...and I personally think what is going to be revealed is going to be jaw-dropping!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I've been fairly dissappointed with all the camera makers lately. They seem to hit around what we would like - creating a camera with some features here and another with some other features there. Sony's FS100 looked promising, but lack of lenses and poor build kind of made me hold off buying one - for now. We'll see what Canon comes up with as well as Red. This is a good time for us - we may actually get a camera with many of the features we've been requesting in one camera.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yes! :) JVC, Sony, Panasonic already have 3D camcorders

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Global ? ? ? OK

One camera, exhibition quality stills and broadcast quality video with no DSLR limitations. A true modern still and video camera in one.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I'm going to do the "Price is Right" & bet $1.

Canon announcement: 7D Mark II
Exactly the same as the 7D, but it now has a firmware update that turns off AGC.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I think all that is pretty well said. Canon have huge experience with sensors with their stills line, and were largely responsible for starting the large-format craze. I don't think current DSLR video is anywhere near ideal for a lot of reasons, but Canon more than anyone have had a lot of time to think about it and get a video-centred (as opposed to still centred) product right. They've also had chance to see what Sony and Panasonic got right - and what they got wrong.

Assuming that, the big question may be whether they go for something that competes more directly with the FS100/AF100, or the F3 in terms of price? My gut feeling is the former, and one obvious thing they may do is make it XDCAM422 50Mbs/Compact Flash - same as their XF300/100. That's pretty cheap to implement, yet gives it a full broadcast standard codec out of the box, and that alone gives it a big advantage over the FS100/AF100. (No more expense or hassle of external recorders.) There are plenty of other things about the latter two that could also be improved on fairly easily, and with the broadcast codec Canon could really clean up.

Alternatively, if they went more head on to the F3, 4k may be a definite possibility, and if (say) coupled with a decent in-built codec recording direct to CompactFlash, that would really give the F3 a run for it's money.

Or just maybe, we might see both? Two models, along the lines of the XF300/100?

Either way, unless you have a pressing and immediate need, I think it would be a very, very foolish idea to buy an AF100, FS100 or F3 until November.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I mentioned at reduser that the final project from "Project Imagin8ion" was only to be said to have been shot on "Canon cameras". While the material for the teaser and behind the scene content was shot on current bodies, it would be a great PR move to have a high profile director like Ron Howard on board for a new product. Great exposure.

In terms of current technology and what can be pushed into a HDSLR or XF or XL series type body 4k is certainly possible. I would say that even 120fps at 1080p or 2K is also possible in there. I'm hoping for more than 4:2:2, but that will be the minimum expectation. Everybody wants a raw format, I do too. It's certainly possible with current editing software. I would love a similar implementation to how .R3D is handled. But who knows.

It will likely be somewhere in the $5k-$16k range to compete with Sony's offerings (also don't forget RED will be eventually producing a camera in this bracket). Right now Canon isn't "killing it" in the world of interchangeable lens camcorder bodies and clearly the success of the 5D Mark II and 7D has had to have made an impact. Let's hope they really charge forward here.

What they need to really address is moire, rolling shutter, and true(r) pure resolution. ISO performance we know will be addressed. Usable and I would dare say clean ISO 6400 and maybe up to 12800, perhaps beyond. No reason not to with today's technology.

Sensor size is really the interesting bit here. They can indeed go the easy route and produce a S35 chip and compete nicely. But Canon could also go FF35 and be the only game in town (and hopefully have a 1.5x or 1.6x crop mode in there). We might even see multiple bodies released with different sized sensors. A new product line really similar to their still camera mindset.

There will certainly be a lens or two announced if we see a new body/system. It might be interesting if they announce a new motion-centric style of lenses with less breathing, geared barrels, and focus locked zooming.

If they don't go with an EF mount I think that would be an utter tragedy and failure on their part.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

But if they stayed with the EF mount then they would be saddling any new video lens designs with an extra 35mm of entirely unnecessary backfocus. That makes the wide angle lenses larger, heavier, more expensive, and lower quality. If they made the EF-mount into an adapter that installs over the standard mount, then you could have the best of both worlds, similar to how I mount Nikon and other lenses on top of EF with an adapter.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Lets get even more optimistic and say a modular mount design... buy lens mounts that are hot-swappable onto this revised form factor's own mount for converting AF/iris/lens info and lens functions into whatever the lens is capable of with a variety of menus that adapt to what lens you attach... EF, PL, F-mount, etc...

We can keep dreaming... Its just that using a true full frame sensor eliminates a lot of good 2k/4k zooms designed for previous sensor sizes/formats...

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I'm totally for an adapter or modular mount solution as well.

However, Canon is also a lens manufacturer and it's already really easy to adapt Nikon glass to their system. I agree PL support would be nice though.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

From RED, definitely yes (and they're doing it). From Canon, definitely no. They won't do that.

There seems to be some buzz about the possibility of two Canon bodies, one with an EF mount and another, more expensive one with a PL mount. I can visualize them doing nearly identical twins, the EF version with one max. resolution and the PL version with a higher res. -- perhaps EF 2K or 3K and PL 4K or 5K. Just thinking out loud here.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I think a hot-swappable adapter is more likely, since Canon already has the EF adapter for the XL series.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

You're absolutely right about that. I will concede an EF adapter for a PL mount on the body. But not the other way around!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I wonder if this will be a new hybrid.

Canon has had nearly three years to study the impact of the video-enabled DSLR. They didn't go for the quick kill by putting DSLR guts in a camcorder body. They've taken a more strategic (or at least slower) approach.

What about a new kind of camera for high-end photographers and mid-level videographers that pushes 1D customers up to the next price tier. 1Ds cost around $5k. What about a new hybrid that gets the 1D customer to spend $8k while capturing Hollywood types as well?

Imagine a camera that can shoot 24fps RAW with a global shutter. Unlike a video camera, it includes autofocus technology. Switch over to a rolling shutter and shoot 120 fps 1080p or 2k for the cinema types.

Rather than a photo camera that happens to do video, or a video camera that happens to shoot stills, this is truly a dual purpose camera that ups the game for both markets.

Some video aspects would be modular. For instance, it might have mini balanced (or digital) audio inputs. If you want phantom, you need an external preamp. With the external box, the audio quality would be truly professional. An EVF would be another modular option. But that's about it. The only places where modules are separate are where you don't want to burden the photographer (in addition to batteries, memory, and flash units, which are already separate modules.)

That sort of announcement would really be worthy of a big splash in Hollywood. And, yes, it would take EF and PL lenses - if not EF2 lenses with new, electronic zoom and focus features.

An EF2 announcement would also be worthy of a big splash. It's been some time since Canon introduced a new lens interface (EF-S, and before then, FD->EF.)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I thought 1Ds cameras like the 1Ds3s cost around $7k? Oh wait, you mean 1Ds, not 1Ds (1Dses? 1Ds'?). That is, 1Ds3s cost less than 1D3s. Gaaaaaaah! I'm beaten by grammar again.

I love that idea. What is the closest precedent for something like that in the Canon world? Battery grips? In addition to audio and LCD, I wonder if an SDI/TC module would be a separate breakout (rather than two different modules, as in the XH-A1 / G1).

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

An interesting thought, but personally I doubt it. Biggest issue is that certain technical factors really need to be EITHER optimised for video OR for stills for best results - most obvious is resolution of the sensor. There are theoretical ways round it, but in practice they're likely to be power hungry/expensive and probably not worth the effort..

That's quite apart from issues such as ergonomics, connectivity etc etc - it's probably cheaper at the end of the day (and more satisfactory overall) to simply have two dedicated cameras - one for stills, one for video!

Who knows? But if I had to put a bet I'll go along with one of Chris's recent statements:
I'd fully expect the cheaper one to be 1080p and XDCAM422, and the more expensive one 4k. Probably agree about lens mounts.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Totally unnecessary to switch to rolling shutter. CMOSIS/Tower Jazz CMV12000: 4K global shutter runs at 300 fps in 10-bit mode and 180 fps in 12-bit mode. It's year-old technology.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Glen,

I guess my comment was not fully accurate, though if the F3 is "professional", then the FS100 would be more "consumer", especially with the cheap body build on the camera. The line is very blurred though, because "consumer" cameras now put out professional images. That was more of the way that my comment was leaning.

No offense to FS100 owners!!

Daniel Weber

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Truly 'professional' cameras generally have 'professional' inputs & outputs. HDMI out is just nasty.

Sony has staggered their line-up such that the least expensive one lacks most professional features (the VG10 having no XLR inputs for instance) the FS100 having no SDI outputs up to the F3 that is partially crippled by a weak-ish codec (I mean they could have given 50mbs easily enough). Whereas the F65 will have it all.

That is not to say that all of those cameras dont produce an excellent image, they do, its just that Sony has purposefully left certain 'pro' features out along the way.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It's more about budget levels on a production than being professional. Professionals have been using the DSLRs, which are in many respects even more limiting than the FS100.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

"The sensor, with a chip size measuring 202 x 205 mm, the world's largest surface area for a CMOS sensor"

Holy Smoly the lenses for that sensor are gonna be a bitch. Say goodbye to DSLR form factor advanages.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I realize that was tongue-in-cheek Ben, but it's for a telescope. The application (not to mention the cost?) is astronomical.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I'm getting serious waves of nostalgia.

As a Z1 owner, I remembered the buzz of hoping to see a mock-up of an HDV camcorder at IBC. It was there - a rebadged XL2 with a paint job. But wait! Maybe that's okay! Oh, right. Okay, it wasn't.

Canon seem to create stunning game changers by accident. If they're actually proud of it and want to big it up Hollywood style, it's probably a bit of a damp squib.

5D Mk 2 was just a great upgrade to a sensational stills camera with just a kooky little feature for those photo journalists that were trying to fill their publications with some video flavour. It was still their photos that sold the 'click'.

Canon seem to either come late to the party but inappropriately dressed (XLH1) or come to the wrong party and freak out (5dMk2). My fear is that Canon don't actually know when to freak out and when to put on a tie.

Because they're weighting this November date so highly, I get the feeling that this is not exactly a red-letter day. They actually have to release something they think is boring, but actually is absolutely amazing.

But then again, I am rubbish at predictions.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

That is an interesting idea. It would be just like Canon to jump on the 3D bandwagon just when it looks like 3D is going down the drain (I'm talking ticket sales here, its nothing personal against any 3D aficionados that are reading this).

An Historic Global announcement regarding a new 3D camcorder? Jeez, that would really suck.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

So true. The sky-high 5D2 sales figures seemed to have caught Canon off guard. I think the 5D classic was far below Canon's sales expectations, based on several factors (e.g. how drastic and frequent the price cuts and rebates were), and that contributed to it. But then again, they did have that "destined evolution" and "moon is waxing" advertising campaign in the two week run up to the 5D2.

Another time was when Canon boosted the DSLR astrophotography revolution, by accident, with the 20D. Cottage industries were popping up to resell the 20D with improved infrared filtration, for around $2,000. So then Canon gets the bright idea to sell their own "astro" version (20Da) for hefty premium (~$2,200). The only problem is that they did really half-hearted job on the infrared filtration, so you still had to send it in for another $500 custom jobbie. No one bought it.

Compared to the accidental revolutions, there are many more revolutions that Canon missed altogether. Take Auto ISO for example. Canon was the first with a CMOS DSLR, and in particular a design that received a tremendous benefit from analog gain (ISO). Other DLSRs (particularly Nikon CCD) didn't really benefit from changing the ISO setting (analog gain) that much -- the read noise was about the same as digital gain. So any Canon used in low light would have had *significantly* less noise by using an Auto ISO mode instead of Tv or Av. Most of the other manufacturers went and added it, but it didn't really make a difference for their cameras because of the flat read noise profile. In contrast, it has been almost a decade and Canon *still* hasn't released a fully functional Auto ISO. (The latest version goes brain-dead if you use flash.)

Of course, by the time Canon finally joins the late Nineties with an Auto ISO feature, their sensor development will probably have moved on to the point where it isn't needed (except for JPEG). :)

That's a great way to put it! :) Unfortunately, you may be right.

Me too. :)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

How about a new camcorder and a new DSLR. Both with the same chip and manufactured to work with each other seemlessly. Camcorder as a primary and as many DSLR secondaries as you want.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

a "Historic Global Announcement" just can't be about a camera or camcorder, or any other new product line, I'm guessing it'll be more about collaboration/acquisition with/of some big guys,
and about new cameras/camcorders releases we'll find out as always - @ NAB