Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

In my opinion the Sony F3 is the target. When I look at Sony's camera I can definitely see Canon coming up with a product that competes with it. The downside, however, is that you're never going to see a sub-$10k camera with those types of robust features.

At this point, though, it's only a guessing game as to what Canon's intentions are. The good news is that we'll all know soon enough. LOL!

But speculation is what's so fun about forums like these -- a collective of happy hand-wringers Mwahahaha'ing the possibilities.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Such as H264 defines the DEcoder, not the coder. So H264 coders vary tremendously in complexity and performance - and price. Increase the complexity, increase the cost, possibily things like the difficulty of doing post work - the question has to be asked if it's worth it? Hence the analogy with the car. (Which wasn't intended too literally! ;-) )
And the comparable situation may be when we're talking about broadcast transmission. Datarate may not be too significant when it just means using a bit more memory. But it's hugely important to a broadcaster with limited bandwidth - an increase in coding efficiency can mean several more channels in a multiplex! It may mean hugely expensive ( and efficient) coders which would not be viable if the benefit was just to save on memory costs - but a different story if it enables extra channel transmission.
True - but memory costs are falling all the time as well, so the codecs, processors etc are chasing a moving target.
It's difficult to see how that could be so. Look at the HPX250 and the AC160 - two recent models, fundamentally similar, but with the difference that the HPX250 has a few extra refinements and is P2/AVC-Intra to the AVC-HD of the AC160. With nowhere near "several thousand dollars" in cost between them - just over one thousand, but that includes more differences than just P2/AVC-Intra.

The AC160 is pretty much the same cost as the AF100. So how come the AC160 gets a P2/AVC-Intra big brother in the HPX250, but no equivalent for the AF100?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Eight bits is enough when you...
1) Expose properly (that's the goal, but some extra headroom can save expensive, non-optimum footage.)
2) Get the S-curve and gamma just right, and
3) Don't grade.

But if you want to fix a non-ideally exposed image, mess with it's curve, and grade colors beyond reality while maintaining smooth gradients and natural texture, you need more bits.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Oh Chris! I've ignored this whole thread until your post. I have an XF100 and I can just imagine using my Canon lenses with a large sensor on that camera; OMG that would be nice!!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

A lot of landmark broadcast programmes have been shot using 8bit HDCAM, many of which have been graded in post. Exposing correctly is one of those skills DPs need to develop, although it's not as difficult with video as shooting reversal film. However, it's not always helped by the quality of the the LCD viewfinders found on the cheaper cameras, which are fine for framing but not really for the finer judgements you have to make in setting the exposre.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Hey Charles, how about this one. You remember 16mm and 8mm cameras with three lense rotation mounts. How about an internal rotation mount for two different sensor chips on the XF-100 type camera. Then you could switch between current XF 100 chip, and a larger sensor. Add interchangealbe EOS lens capability and you have a lot of needs covered in one camera.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Well - I think that may be quite difficult to engineer. I can think of an easier way to sort of get what you want - what about the whole chip area being S35 and 4k sensor resolution. (Which I'll take to be the 16:9 version - 3920x2160.)

So either use the whole sensor, downscaling to 1080p or recording RAW - or just use the centre quarter area of the chip, which will be 1920x1080, and roughly equal to Super16 (?). (And with resolution equivalent to the XF100.)

One point that's worth mentioning is to do with the idea of two cameras sharing the same chip, a more expensive camera and a cheaper one, like the F3 and FS100. If we assume the S35 chip, and assume it to be a Bayer of 3920x2160, you could either read it in the normal way (to get such as 4k RAW) and then deBayer, OR treat it in a far simpler way.

It could be considered as a 1960x1080 matrix of blocks, each:

R G
G B

So treat each block as a single three colour pixel, and you very simply get full resolution 4:4:4 1080p. No need for de-Bayering, downconversion etc etc. So the more expensive camera gets full 4k ability (and possibly this mode as well), the cheaper one "just" gets the 4:4:4 1080p.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Maybe I'm confused about what you're suggesting, but it sounds like you're describing a standard bayer filter, which would of course require debayering. Plus, taking four adjacent samples and reducing them to a single pixel would also be a form of downconversion. The only difference I see in your two scenarios is that one performs the downconversion & debayering in post, while the other does it in camera.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yes, a standard Bayer filter sensor. But a signal can be derived without a true deBayer process, which is exactly what happens with getting video from still camera sensors. The advantage of the system above is that the number of pixels (4x1960x1080, or about 8 megapixels) is optimum for the process. "DeBayering" tends to describe a fairly specific technique, and there's a good demo at HowStuffWorks "Demosaicing Algorithms: Color Filtering"
Hence it's complicated. It will give a 3920x2160 output - though the actual resolution won't be as high as that, and the luminance resolution will be better than chrominance. Each output pixel will be formed by computation from values of surrounding pixels. It will give a lot better than 1920x1080 performance - as you may expect from a 4k sensor, but obviously it won't be as good as three 3920x2160 sensors.
No, either could happen in camera. But the former does need to do a true deBayer, and because the result is a 4k output, then needs to downconvert to get 1080p. A lot of computing to do it well.

The simpler option is equivalent to reading from three 1920x1080 chips, directly getting a R,G,B value for each 1080 output pixel. So no deBayering, and no downconversion - it gives 1080 directly. The only difference is that the R,G,B photosites are sitting side by side, not on three separate chips. (And there are two green photosites in the 2x2 block, but they could be averaged together.)
I suppose that depends on definition. I see what you mean, but "downconversion" tends to be used in relation to taking a higher definition video signal, and converting to that to one of lower definition. That's not the same as would be happening here, the lower definition signal is being formed directly on read out.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Everything after the F900 has been unncecessary :) ;).

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Please remember that this is Wikipedia. AVC-Ultra was Vaporware for the past 3 years. I don't see citations or references, so this could all be hokum.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Not always the case, but it's more that 8 bit formats can probably manage the productions that most people are actaully shooting.

There are trade offs going on in a camera design and you may find that you can have other 10bit codec, but because of compromises in keeping the cost down, other aspects of the camera's design don't in reality make it that worthwhile. It may be better having lower compression 8bit rather than higher compression 10bit.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It was announced at IBC (video).

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

An overview of AVC-Ultra (in English, with Spanish subtitles):

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The problem with using the word ULTRA is.... then what? What do you call the codec once you implement 1080p 4:4:4? AVC-MAX? And then what? What do you call the AVC flavor that supports 4K in the future? AVC-SUPERDUPER?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Chris - that only refers to the I-frame only 200Mbs codec which has been talked about for quite a while - what Lawrence Bansbach referred to was a newer announcement: "its AVC-Ultra "family" of codecs. One is AVC Long-GOP which is indeed 10-bit 4:2:2 at up to 50 Mbps".

The wikipedia link talks of broadening the term to include three new codecs under the "Ultra" term - the original 200Mbs "AVC-Ultra" now becoming "AVC-Intra Class 200". (Confused? :-) )
But you don't just need more bits - you need to record something other than the fully processed video signal - S-log, RAW etc to get the most benefit out of any 10 bit system. Otherwise overexposure is overexposure and can't be clawed back no matter what the bitdepth. Yes, such will give far more control, but will require every shot to be graded - not a problem for some work, far too time consuming for other.

Unfortunately "10bit" just seems to have become a marketing silver bullet - "use a 10 bit system and it'll give you far more control, sir". The reality is a lot more complicated, and 10 bit is only one factor. Don't confuse 10 bit S-log with a 10 bit video codec.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

AVC- Flux Capacitor!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Still, even with that initial announcement, no products officially implement it yet. And furthermore, all references to the original announcement in official press form have long been down. That's what I call vaporware.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

And in today's news:

Canon Hollywood Professional Technology and Support Center Premieres in Los Angeles at DVInfo.net

Related to this Nov. 3rd announcement? You decide...

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Kind of lends credance to those who postulated the big announcement was about a working arrangement with the Studio in question......which for most of us would mean nothing. Only a couple of weeks off now... Will this thread be sent to Area 51 ?? We will know soon...

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The fact that that announcement was made today tends to mean that it isn't the one scheduled for Nov 3rd. :-) However, it does tend to lend weight the theory that the Nov 3rd announcement is more likely to be about something more relevant to the cinema industry than a photocopier......

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Very very exciting.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I can assure you that it most definitely will *not* be sent to Area 51.

Nor will I be able to offer any more speculation in this thread after tonight...

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

See, See, Canon is taking over Hollywood & buying Paramount & RED!!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Or could it be the other way around? Hmm.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

"" Canon’s customer service and support network includes Factory Service Centers in Irvine (Calif.), Jamesburg (N.J.) and Newport News (Va.) as well as five broadcast lens service centers located strategically throughout the United States.""

I guess that means the Irvine crew will not move into the new facility, what will Hollywood work on ??


another interesting paragraph;

""The facility will also support business opportunities by offering 1:1 meetings with major clients (studios, production houses, television networks, rental facilities, and others) to further build relationships and assess their needs. The new facility and local Canon staff will also offer hands-on education to current and potential clients on the latest Canon professional products. Courtesy visits by both existing and potential clients in the industry can be arranged to explore opportunities and assess Canon’s full capabilities"".

It's beginning to sound like I won't be able to afford an ND filter for this thing.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Well - I speculated much earlier in this thread that whilst I don't see either Red or Canon buying the other one out, there remains the possibility of a joint venture in a single area. I still haven't seen a single informed comment which categorically rules that out.

Many are taking some quotes by Jim Jannard as being such, taking comments about a forthcoming "battle" as Canon v Red. As said before ( http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...ml#post1683761 ) all the comments I've seen could be taken the other way - Canon AND Red versus "the rest".

Whether or not it WILL happen I simply don't know, I have no inside knowledge - but it would make a lot of business sense.......

Ah well. Chris at least will soon be in a position to know the truth. Roll on Nov 3rd for the rest of us....... :-)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

For those with long memories, we went through this a year ago discussing the absence of a solid state exchangeable lens model in the XF lineup. As I recall, the leanings were toward a solid state large chip XL in the fall of 2010 that was wrong or was cancelled when the market shifted:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xf...down-line.html

Canon's historical behavior and Japanese management style would say they won't rock the boat in a huge way as that might cause embarassment. I read some analyst that claimed the big hit of the 5DM2 was unforeseen and unintentionally brash.

Personally, I think Canon's usual "last to enter the market" behavior and strategy to eat away at the broadcast market from below (they have no upper end market to erode or threaten) point to a high end model. Coupled with the announcement of a Hollywood service center for filmmakers, it seems to me that it makes sense for the Nov 3 product to be targeted squarely at hi-end digital filmmaking.

If there's a price driven aspect to this market like there was at the time of the XL-H1 (Camera Review: The Canon XL H1 By Dirck Halstead / The Digital Filmmaker /), then the "Historical" aspect of the announcement is probably the acquisition specs (color space and buss width) at a pricepoint ... aka a quality digital filmmaking camera with good enough specs to take away some Red and low-end Arri market all at a price where you can buy several for the price of an Arri.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Looks like Chris will know after tonight .. but there's a Non Disclosure Agreement pending ?

IMO it's a new big pro cine camera to rival Arri and Red. They couldn't let it dribble out on to the market.
Probably be followed closely by a cut down prosumer version .. maybe even announced on Nov 3.

Cheers.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

While this is true, 8-bit HDCAM - or 8-bit DSLR - doesn't give the latitude and bit resolution needed to allow us to push things to their creative limits. And while the goal is to expose properly, in high contrast environments, this is subjective. Do you expose for highlights or shadows? You can't have both. And, if the contrast is low enough to capture the extremes, you lose nuance in the mid- skin tones.

My son recently did the post work on a music video with content from two different DPs. It was daylight DSLR content shot before CineStyle was available. Sure enough, one DP exposed high, the other low. Neither was "wrong", but it made things tough in post, even for a fairly conservative grade. In essence, 8-bits is "brittle".

True. By requesting "more bits", I'm really asking for a more gradable, less brittle output. Whether this is 14-bits linear, 12-bits S-log, or whatever is up to the manufacturer.

It would be nice if there was metadata included in video files that told NLEs what default lookup table to use. Drop it on a timeline or in a video player and the image would look nice right off the card. But you could still grade it to extremes. Best of all worlds - aside from the need to buy more memory cards and hard drives, of course. :)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Dear Jon,

We will implement, in our Gemini 4:4:4, the ability to record full uncompressed 10-Bit, S-Log or other Log, to one SSD while simultaneously recording to a second SSD with a Grading LUT applied.

The goal is to allow post to have the native S-Log, plus a copy with the grading LUT applied so that they can have an idea what was intended.

Of couse, we will allow, in the future for user loadable and possibly, user programmable, LUTs to be used for the grading LUT.

And the Gemini 4:4:4 will allow one to select a viewing LUT or not. We will have the ability, in future firmware releases, to select or not a viewing LUT for the LCD and each of the HD-SDI and HDMI outputs.

Our intial firmware release will not have all of these features, but we will have these as soon as possible.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It may be worth emphasing that this is only valid if the camera supports it? In other words, you couldn't make proper use of it with a camera that "only" had a straightforward HD-SDI output. (Even if that was 10 bit.)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The whole process is subjective, you have to embrace the limitations. The final display may be 6 bits or if you're lucky 8 bits and the final image will be have a lower dynamic range than the camera. On video you usually expose for the highlights, the creative part can be deciding how much highlight burn out you use. The curve used the camera will influence the decision, also if you're going to do much grading in post. Nailing it pretty much in the camera is the way to go with 8 bit for the best results and a lot of the fun.

I wouldn't compare a highly compressed 8 bit recording with a lightly compressed 8 bit recording. DSLRs are limited in what you can do with the exposure adjustments in post anyway, you don't want to be bringing up the noise in the shadows.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Dear David,

The Gemini 4:4:4 can record S-Log only if the camera can output S-Log.

If the camera outputs Rec. 709, we can record that also, or any other normal flavor of HD-SDI.

Single Link HD-SDI, Dual Link HD-SDI and in a future firmware release HD-SDI 3G.

The Gemini 4:4:4 supports 4:2:2 as well as 4:4:4 cameras.

It is proper to note that S-Log or other Log footage has to be generated in the camera, not in the Gemini 4:4:4.

Also, we plan to fully support ARRIRAW next year.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

or the other way......

I like the way Red Canon rolls off the tongue.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Jon - fundamentally, I agree with pretty much everything you say. I just think you're putting the emphasis in the wrong place. It's not the bitdepth that's primarily important, rather what lies behind it. (S-log, RAW, or whatever.) Yes, they need a bitdepth greater than 8 to be realistic - but that's what follows on - not what's most important.

I suspect you are well aware of that in principle, but other people may not be, and get the wrong message from the talk of bitdepth. What really needs to be got across is that simply recording a 10 bit video signal isn't necessarily much advantage over 8 bit. It's when used in conjunction with something like S-log it really gives the benefit.

Of course, even with something like you describe (default look up table) the downside may still be far greater rendering. Hence why I'd like to see the option in any future camera of an either/or approach. Either processed video (to something like XDCAM422) OR something like RAW. Or maybe even both recorded at the same time......

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It's really both (bit depth and curve) isn't it? A relatively flat curve with subtle knees at the ends is ideal for capturing a high contrast image, but the bits that you give to the extremes are donated by the mid-tones. On the other hand, more bits can help smooth out a shallow gradient like on a mid-gray balloon, but will do little at the extremes is the s-curve is too strong. For instance, with the 5D2, I really like the CineStyle curve for high-contrast scenes, but I go back to Natural for lower contrast stuff where skin tones are critical.

We really want both, don't we? A nice curve and enough bits lets us capture a wide range as well as subtle textures and smooth gradients. And add really high compression quality to the ask. Lots of bits and the perfect curve do no good if the image is reduced to a bunch of large monotone boxes. :)

@Dan Keaton... The Gemini 4:4:4 solution sounds really nice (assuming that the camera can feed it.) It solves the problem David mentioned about sometimes wanting gradable material and sometimes wanting the fastest possible render and delivery. Having a record of the on-set grade answers some comments I heard from DPs at NAB: Digital makes it easier to fix things in post, but it can also undo the creative intent of the DP. By locking the on-set grade (and providing a safety recording), the DP can re-assert some authority.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I ceratainly understand the line of reasoning to your speculation, but I think as of 10:06 yesterday, Jim Jannard just categorically ruled it out.

"...
Canon on the red carpet in Hollywood and RED from the garage. Head to head.

Jim"

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yep I'd hate to be trying to sell high end video cameras right now. The area of the industry has likely gone stone cold.

Cheers.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

You can expose RED improperly too and get bad results even with that. Nothing can really help if one dp exposes wrongly. We finished a big commercial a month ago where the first shot was shot way too dark with the RED. End result was huge amounts of noise.