Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

So far the talk from RED has been about the Scarlet on the 3rd Nov, which unless they're going to do a complete about face in their product range is a 2/3" camera.. They may have done a few changes to their last announced specs, but to date this seems to be a 3k camera with a 8 x fixed zoom lens.

The RED Super 35 sensor cameras are in the Epic range, with the former Scarlet Super 35 camera being the Epic-S.

Of course all this could change, but it has been RED's road map for a while now.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

No, I agree, no sale - but a strategic partnership would be a different matter and might be advantageous to both parties. With something like Red fundamentally concentrating on the higher end and Canon the FS100/AF100 market. Maybe the Red Scarlet will actually turn out to be the Canon Scarlet......?

Thinking back, it did seem a little odd that Jim was referring to the Canon announcement as if he knew what was going on, and also that both companies were choosing the same day for announcements. Of course, if the announcements were linked.......?

And some people have queried the Canon announcements, what's meant by "historic global announcement"? And "The Story Begins". Looking at the link from Simon Woods post, we have Jim Jannard saying "There are some monumental changes coming... " and "everything changes"

The speculation has been that they were references to new cameras, period. But it's a bit strong language, isn't it.....? But if it was new cameras AND a Red/Canon tie-up, it may really be a historic announcement for the industry.

Has anybody seen anything that categorically rules out such speculation?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

No, it hasn't. A couple of weeks ago, Jim Jannard announced a new roadmap, and the Epic-S wasn't on it. When pressed about it, he replied, "The camera you want is later this year." Anyone interested in the Epic-S would probably want S35. But as far as I can tell, Scarlet (singular) is the only remaining Red camera that will be released this year. Also, his statements "What seemed like a good idea 3 years ago might seem completely wrong today" and more recently "Many times we announce a product, then realize that what seemed like a good idea... wasn't as good as we thought. Particularly when it doesn't measure up to 'our new and better idea'. That = change." seem to be aimed at 2/3-inch Scarlet, which was announced 3 years ago. One could conclude that Scarlet was now S35, with the Scarlet badge denoting a camera with a nonupgradable sensor. But it's anyone's guess.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

You may be onto something. Jim Jannard's post did seem to be carefully -- and in spots vaguely -- worded. The more conventional interpretation is that both Canon and Red would announce cameras on November 3 and that he thought Scarlet would be superior in every respect. But what he said was, "RED announces the new Scarlet. Canon announces 'something really important to Hollywood'. Everyone wins" (emphasis mine), which implies that it may not be be a head-to-head competition and doesn't say Canon is releasing a camera, and "You get to compare RED's latest directly with the newest from one of the 'big dogs' in the industry," which doesn't actually say we'll get to compare cameras.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Not a categorical denial per se, but it's pretty obvious from reduser posts that Jim and Jarred don't see this as any kind of cooperation with Canon. For example:

"Head to head"
SCARLET....

"Canon announces... we announce. The best one wins."
SCARLET....

"We like to bring Bazookas to knife fights."
SCARLET....

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

If scarlet is announced and the official price is under 6k (who knows how much it will be...) I will probably sell off all my DSLR equipment and move platforms. Then again, it depends on what lens they stick on it (Ive read an 8x zoom, but I like to see how long the lens is in mm equivalent...)

I stopped paying attention to 'supposed' price point releases about it a while ago - I guess I am going to keep on shooting merrily until/if/when something in this regard is announced. Whatever player makes the most significant offering, I will most likely buy around December.

All I want is small form factor, good codec, and 1080/60p. The rest is justifiable depending on price.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

OK..... now maybe I'm reading way, way too much into this, but you could see all those quotes (and thanks for them!) as cryptic and capable of being taken two ways.

"Head to head" for instance may be taken as meaning "face to face" (as most people are taking it) which implies competitiveness. But it could be taken as "putting our heads together", and imply co-operation. Visually, you could think of two heads facing each other (competitively) or standing side by side (co-operatively).
Likeise, that's being taken as "Canon announces their product, then we announce our (different) one, and ours is better than Canons".

But what if the meaning was "Canon announce a product, we announce how pleased we are to be in collaboration, and our joint product is better than anyone elses"?
Again - being taken as the Red bazooka versus the Canon knife.

But could he be referring to a fight between the bazooka wielded by Canon/Red, and the mere knives of Panasonic/Sony?

Heck, I wouldn't put any money on this, but I don't see those as categoric denials. Whatever the truth, they're certainly generating an awful lot of interest!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Watch it not be a camera at all. :)

I don't know. It just seems to me that RED and Canon have completely different customers.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The price of a 5Dm2 body just dropped below $2000- here in Canada.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

And rebates for US buyers September 25 and running until October 29, 2011.

Yet another sign Canon's ready for a big new camera roll out.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Because Canon isn't Red and because this camera is in the rumor mil for over a year, in my opinion "historic" means 4K. Everything less would be a turn off.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

FWIW, I completely agree w/ Daniel. It's quite a stretch read what Red has recently posted and conclude that they are partnering-up w/ Canon.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

That doesn't mean that it's a Super 35 sensor Scarlet, You could have the 2/3" Scarlet, using RAW being considered superior in every respect to a 1080p Canon with a Super 35 sensor. For many productions the 2/3" sensor would be the better tool to use and there's no reason why they couldn't have a 4k sensor on such a camera. It's still a new camera in the market, even if it doesn't appear so after numerous threads on REDUser ,

RED loves the speculation as part of their marketing. I'm sure whatever happens some people will be happy while others will be disappointed.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

RED seem to have used Nov 3rd as there target for Scarlet to go head to head with canon. OR is it an alternative to Canon.

Personally I think RED might make a sensor that covers 16mm film lenses and 2/3 lenses and Canon go full frame. That could be a tough decision for many.

Does anyone care if its 4k though? I mean what would the public use it for isn't it overkill and the pro side is already covered so to me 4k is more a gimmic.

It would be nice and why not have 4.2.2 10 bit out and record at various bit rates up to 220mbps as well as ND filters and useful tools. All could be done now especially as much of the expense in the past has been the lens. I think its about time a camera similar to the EX1 had a sensor that gave more control over dof and recorded at a higher bitrate for about or really should be less than EX1 pricing. especially now Jim Jannard will be hitting the sweet spot and market protectionism could be about to go out of the window for older manufacturers.

Fingers crossed.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Apart from anything else, it's great news for their marketing. If it's something priced head to head with the FS100/AF100, it becomes not why should you go for 4k - but why shouldn't you?

I'd hope for the possibility of recording to 50Mbs XDCAM422 at 1080p, and/or 4k to something capable of RAW.

And that's where a liasion with Red would make great sense in terms of a collaborative camera - lever the best parts of both organisations. It would also give Red access to such as Canons dealership and support network - something it may not have so badly needed when their product was high price/low volume, but more neccessary if we are going to see something lower priced/higher volume. To Peter Moretti I'd say that I don't consider Daniels quotes as evidence in themselves of a liasion happening - but I don't neccessarily think they're evidence that it won't, for the reasons given.

I also suspect there will be a big push soon towards 4k screens. Partly just as the next new thing, partly because screens are ceasing to be just a device to watch TV on, but finding a lot more uses in the commercial world for advertising, information display etc, where big screens and/or higher than 1080 resolutions are far more important than in the home. In which case, a move to 4k cameras would become part and parcel of a much wider move.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

But what use is 4k? How can you see the extra defination on anything other than a cinema screen and even then could you tell a difference. Wouldn't you need to strain to see differences? Who is going to blow up their film to such huge proportions. Okay it would be good for film transfers or special effects but for the consumer isnt it going to be meaningless By all means have 4k if its no extra but isnt it to allow manufacturers to sell more equipment and not really in the consumers interest isnt this all just a ploy? As everyone will need bigger hard drives peripherals editing upgrades monitors you name it will need replacing and the manufacturers can sell shed loads of new equipment. Something the consumer doesnt need to create a NEW market. great marketing but a bit of a con I would think.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Part of me agrees with you, Mark. And, of course, we don't even know whether the announcement to come will mean 4k, or even a new camera at all - let alone a Red/Canon liasion.

It's also worth asking exactly what is meant by "4k"? It may sound obvious, but are we talking about a full 4k output resolution, a 4k Bayer sensor, or what? They are very different things! Just because a camera calls itself "1080p" doesn't mean it necessarily does anything like full justice to the format - just that that's the form of signal output. The AF100 doesn't even make 720p resolution, the FS100 is short of full 1080p - but they still call themselves "1080 cameras".

What I'd like to see may be a camera with a 4k sensor, and capable of recording a 4k RAW Bayer output. Because it is RAW, we're not talking about huge data rates, relatively. Even if you want to end up with 1080 as the final result, that will still give great leeway for post correction, garding etc and the final result should make the most of the 1080p output format. I'd also like to see the capability of recording 1080p as well, and would hope for a broadcast codec - XDCAM422 is the most likely from Canon - for some people who haven't got the facilities, time or resources to deal with RAW 4k, that would still be much better than AVC-HD or the hassle of an external recorder.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

When asked about his new Epic-S-less roadmap, Jannard replied, "The camera you want is later this year." I doubt those interested in it would be satisfied with a 2/3-inch camera. Unless Red announces another camera between now and the end of the year, Scarlet looks to be that camera. Besides, I find it hard to imagine that Jannard would concede sensor size to Canon (if indeed Canon's announcement concerns a video camera and it has a large sensor). Sensor size may be overhyped, but it does seem important to a lot of people.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

RED is great at the speculation game, although, I suspect the sales numbers would be larger for a 2/3" camera than a large sensor camera. There are a lot of EX1 & EX3 plus other cameras being used on productions that would find a lower cost 2/3" camera rather handy replacement, however, the RAW workflow isn't for everyone.

I expect RED will do whatever it feels like and perhaps RED feels it has to match the FS100, F3 and the possible Canon because the big boys now are now stepping onto their pitch.

If a large sensor Canon has a HD broadcast accepted codec in the FS100/F3 price range, it'll be interesting to see how quickly Sony responds.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The sales numbers are also much higher for 1/3-inch cameras. Maybe Jannard feels that 2/3-inch's time has come and gone, at least for the market he's targeting (i.e., digital cinema, not ENG or event photography).

The weird thing is, a year ago, the price of Scarlet S35 stood at $7K or so. Then it was moved onto the Epic platform, and its price effectively doubled. But the market you cited, FS100 and F3, represents a nearly $10K spread, so maybe Scarlet will still fit in there.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I wouldn't count documentaries as ENG (Electronic News Gathering) or event, RED seem to have put a lot of effort into developing a 2/3" camera, which does seem to have a market from the level of interest expressed on REDUser. I suspect there would be as many people unhappy about losing the smaller sensor camera as it being replace by a cheap large sensor camera.

I'm sure there will be people shooting events on a cheap large sensor RED camera, just as they do at present with the current such cameras.

Best not take everything at face value, just whatever and whenever it turns up.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

4k is something ive been wishing for since getting into greenscreen and compositing. Not that 1080p is bad but the extra resolution would be nice.

Having the larger frame size would allow me to shoot full body and zoom to a head and shoulders without having to re-frame the shot since we still output to 1080p for most of our work. Instead of me operating two cameras or hiring another shooter, I would end up with some choices in the edit process that can't be done with one camera at 1080p.

So while I have no use for 4k output, 4k acquisition is a whole different use that I am looking forward to! And the ability to use my EF lenses with control is a major plus...whos gonna win my biz? Canon or Red?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Especially Mark when the specs are observed. Wikipedia is not always perfect, but they say that Japan Broadcasting Corporation (NHK) is pursuing UHDTV. Which is 16 times the data of HD. Unlike current HD, 4k does not denote vertical pixels like 720p or 1080p, 4k denotes horizontal pixels. ( A confusing statement ).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

UHDTV's main tentative specifications:[3]

Number of pixels: 7,680 × 4,320
Aspect ratio: 16:9
Viewing distance: 0.75H
Viewing angle: 100°
Colorimetry: under discussion
Frame rate: 120Hz progressive
Bit depth: 12
Audio system: 22.2ch
Sampling rate: 48kHz, 96kHz
Bit length: 16, 20, 24
Pre-emphasis less
Number of channels: 24
Upper layer: 9ch
Middle layer: 10ch
Lower layer: 3ch
LFE: 2ch

Hopefully it will have a selectable format for current HD.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Yes of course 4k has professional uses and is a real breakthrough at the high end but what use is it to the general public except to persuade them they need it and sell all the peripherals. Probably like the err 3d gimmic camera's ;)

The scarlet I was under the impression to be a prosumer camera. I dont mind if it has 4k res as long as it can do 2k and that side is well catered to.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I don't think RED do prosumer as such, they say that they're aiming their cameras at professionals.

RED could make a number of announcements rather than just one, but what the products are, other than one is called Scarlet remains to be seen.There could easily be details of two cameras being announced or other products.

They may even be responding to the Sony F65, the range is pretty wide.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Brian I may have this wrong but I thought Jim Jannard wanted to make cameras that indie film makers could afford and to end the rip off cycle where new crippled models come out that make consumers keep having to upgrade to the next best thing. His idea of a brain and accessories,upgrades etc born from that thinking and the prime reason we ended up with the breakthrough EX1 although the F3 has seen a return to the old ways Hopefully now this ends NOV 3RD D DAY!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Why is Sony returning to it's old ways with the F3?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I guess he regards them as professional cameras at affordable prices, certainly he has declared on REDUser that they make professional cameras. The price of the Scarlet has seemed to have drifted up from the original announced, although so has the specification. I wouldn't look at the base price and think that's the cost of a shooting kit.

I think Sony regard the FS100 as the indie film maker camera, rather than the F3. Regardless, there will always be better cameras than the indie film makers can afford.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

This post is my opinon and not neccesarily correct but believe it to be so from what is well obviously out there.

Steve the F3 is out of reach of most of us taking it back to the professional realm with pro pockets. the consumer version is in my opinion the ill made FS100.

When Jim Jannard announced the Red Sony bought out the EX1 To me it seemed almost as if fear of what he was going to do had made Sonys decision to try and pre empt it.

Brian it is not in dispute there will always be cameras indie film makers cannot afford and rightly so . I think though if Panasonic can make the NEW 250 with a fantastic lens 20bit processor 10 bit 4.2.2 out for £4000 then I'm damn sure sony can make an equivelent lens free large sensor camera instead of adding a few fancy bells and whistles and selling it for £12000 as an f3. Overpriced in my opinion but then the Pro market is happy to accept expensive equipment especially here in the UK where the BBC forces everyone with a TV to buy a licence. And it is my opinion thats what will happen on NOV 3RD D DAY for Sony and all the other manufacturers who have crippled cameras for years as slow but sure canon enter the fray Sony have kept markets seperate to please pro's and keep that market hyper inflated too.. Most if the public have been denied the opportunity to participate and make films that has changed a lot already and I believe much of this change came about purely because of Sonys fear of Jim Jannard a really big fish who had enough Sonys fearful release of the EX1 and access to real HD instead of the psuedo HDV that kept the markets seperate and then we watched the rise of the ofboard recorders heheh cant beat the ingenuity of the small fish. Yes business and capitilism takes no prisoners and that is why capitilism must always be tempered with democracy and laws. Especially competition laws and unfair practices. That is why there is competition rules and why sometimes companies get into trouble. I hope nov 3rd will hopefully be a new beginning and I will look forward to it!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

To be honest, people haven't been prevented from making films. It's never been easier to make films, the costs are lower than they have ever been. It's nothing to do with the cameras, you can make a successful film in every respect with a camera that came out several years ago. The hard part lies within the creative process itself and gathering the people together who will enable a good film to be made.

Waiting for the next best thing in cameras as an answer is delusional, the tools are already to hand.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

^ This, x 1,000.

If waiting on a particular camera is stopping someone from making their film, then that film will never be made.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

But waiting until November if you are in the market for a camera isn't delusional at all. It's nice to come early to game-changing technology. I bought the 5D2 within a month or so of its release, and I've more than gotten my money out of it. People looking to buy a 5D2 during the last few month have faced a tougher choice.

I agree that there is always something around the corner, so one can pathologically wait forever. But with the Canon and RED announcements coming in November, waiting makes a lot of sense right now - unless you've got an immediate paying gig. And in that case, one can always rent.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Absolutely if you're going to be buying new kit in the near future it would be worthwhile holding off buying a new camera.. Although, you'd have to suspect that the cameras that may be about to announced will meet the specs and the price you need.

The game changing aspect would really depend on the market you're working in, so it doesn't work if there's only a small demand there, even though it's successful elsewhere. However, there is an element of sucking and seeing about that.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

If that is aimed at me then insult me all you want because I'm waiting for the next best thing.

My predicamernt is that I had to sell my EX1 to cover my girlfriends car crash and wanted to buy a replacement at a later date. When I was in a position to buy things had changed and affordable cameras with large sensors had arrived BUT crippled Yes I could have gone for another EX1 but decided a large chip camera was the answer For a while I looked at the 5D and GH2 and although lovely pictures the workflow and colour correction were an obstacle.

I am truly frustrated by the Sony FS100 with its awful feature set to the point I wouldn't give Sony the satisfaction of buying it. (I'm just a potential customer why should I matter)

As for the AF100 I think its not bad and better than the FS100 because it has a decent feature set. However its limited in resolution and in how it deals with highlights and although I am impressed on how it can work when the studio is properly lit and within its confines I need a camera that can handle highlights and higher resolution However if it had 10 bit out I may have been swayed..

NOW I did consider the Panasonic 250 which looks to be a fantastic camera but with the Nov 3rd announcement I think its right to wait for this. I am though frustrated at the moment being stuck with no camera for a number of months in order to wait for the new technology and the big boys make profits on half finished jobbies for those who cant wait or have enough money to throw away.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Such a salient post. For the likes of me anyway!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It's not an insult, it's comment on an approach that some people have where the gear itself takes over rather than the films they're trying to make. Some industry technicians do that as well, but if you're the actual film maker it's only a part of what you're trying to achieve.

The EX series will continue shooting for a number of years and the AF 100 & FS 100 offer advantages over the DSLRs. I suspect the Scarlet will be more expensive than those two cameras anyway.

Your best bet might be if this possible large sensor Canon comes out at the same price as the XF 300, but there's a good chance it will be 8 bit.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Brian, thanks for clearing that up it sounded at first insulting but I can see your point now.

Whatever happens I think Nov 3rd will be D day in the camera world.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I'm not sure about that, but there could be some new tools.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Don't forget that most of the time, announcement date = not shipping date. And new products are almost always scarce, they come with bugs that will be fixed etcetera... so don't think you get what you want on November 3rd... expect to get it early 2012. And you still pay an early adopter price.

I think in this age, you can better spend your money on a good kit and hire a camera when needed. This way, you ensure that you can always use the latest and greatest. It also reduces the risk of investment. If you earn back a new camera < 12 months, it is a wise investment.

Look at the economy right now... we're going to crash very hard (I live in Europe, but the US is bankrupt as well) so I would think twice before investing a lot of money in a camera right now.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Years and years ago, a similar event played out with the release of the Canon XL-1 ... set to join the fray alongside the Sony VX-1000 and the Panasonic with the name I forget (though the absence of a Firewire connection I clearly remember) -- Canon enthusiasts across the webiverse waxed eloquently on the inability of Canon to do any wrong, of the superiority both technical and philosophical about all things Canon. Chris Hurd was there in those early days, and though a Canon enthusiast he was no Pollyanna -- but some commentors went beyond mere enthusiasm! I forget his nomme de guerre now, and never knew his real one, but one web poster with Bay in his handle (I knew not whether he was a SF Bay, or a Miami Bay, or somewhere else entirely -- he enjoyed using a Hawaiian slang but that's all I know) could imagine nothing less than perfection of a Biblical sort. His rants were legendary.

Truth was rather less than expectation -- the XL-1 was somewhere between fine and OK; the ground had been broken first by Panasonic, then made truly productive by Sony -- for the next decade minor improvements were met with modest gains by all, but in truth nothing came of the great 'promise' of Canon, and any real analysis of the DV era has to lay much acclaim on the Sony camera.

I have no camera-religion -- my loyalty on the issue of who gets my cash is paper thin. Neither do I cling to long-remembered mis-steps -- the afore-mentioned lack of Firewire connectivity, or the inability of the XL-1 to deliver 8-bit precision in the final recording -- but it is worth remembering the past, else we are bound to repeat it!

Cheers,
GB