Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It is getting kind of thick!... Really, what is going to shatter the earth? We are going to get news of products that might give more for less money than in the past. Canon better have some good stuff or they risk look like fools imho. At least RED can release their 4-years delayed Scarlet. Oh how pessimistic I have become!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Best post in this thread. Thanks for the laughs Peter!

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I think we now know its not likely to be a dSLR camera right?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It's pretty clear that

1) yesterday we got the news about the 1D X (shipping in March) to set initial expectations,
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...lr-camera.html

2) on the 26th, we will learn more about consumer products, including EOS cameras, and

3) on the 3rd, we will learn what's up in digital cinema.

Something for everybody! :)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Less than 2 weeks to go!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Ummmmmm.........anyone here that the Red Scarlet is going on sale Nov 3? I just read about it over on fxguide.com.

Also, in the same article, they say how they will be covering this Red Scarlet event as well as "the major Canon announcement earlier in the day". Nov 3rd is setting up to be a HUGE day for our industry. However, my patience will be put to the test with all of the Red and Canon fanboys going crazy over cameras they have never used and camera footage they have never seen.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Mentioned in this very thread about a month ago: "RED will be announcing on... you guessed it... November 3rd! "

Just stick with DV Info Net and you won't have that problem.

;-)

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Whatever we have here, it's good for us.
Scarlet will likely be great, but it's difficult to read the Red forums gushing about prospective unavailable products. How do people do that year after year?
Will Canon give us video raw? Will Canon do more than 1080p? Interesting question here if Canon really "gets it".
Scarlet seems more straightforward as a 2/3 sensor with all the good red raw software. Canon's never made a big video specific sensor, so that's very interesting technically. Likely very distinct approaches by these companies, with many of us wanting aspects of both.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I'm very confident it will be considerably better than that. Considerably. But I will be shocked if it's more than 1080p.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

for the record, RED has said that the Nov. 3rd announcement is for a SCARLET that is now done and ready to ship. final specs will be announced on that day.

looking forward to seeing what both companies announce, even though I'm not buying any new cameras any time soon.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I know the Scarlet that has been bandied about has a 2/3" sensor, but I wonder if RED decided to make a completely new model, with a larger sensor and interchangable lenses? It would compete more with the FS100, AF100 and F3, but offer RAW image capture.
Still, a 2/3" sensor, fixed lens camera with 3K RAW capture sounds pretty good to me.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I'm certain Canon's gonna give us a new cam from latest updates. Nothing else heard out, the folks on NDA r pretty tight about it.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

^^^I don't see how Red could make a large sensor Scarlet considering the Epic-X costing $55K. Somethings gotta give to be under $10K. I think if you're Red you don't want to change the software side - I think Scarlet has to make redcode. So all I can think of is sensor size.
But really don't know.

I don't get Red's confidence if Scarlet is a fixed lens small sensor camera. Three years ago that was exciting, but not so much with what's available today. 3K, 2/3, and interchangeable is interesting to me. Not that they can't sell a bunch of these at the right price. But the whole 5DII phenomenon is about creative control and cinematic look. So was the Red One phenomenon.

I'm actually more curious about the Canon announcement. Their path to this point has been remarkably odd with the unexpected success of 5DII video. How does Canon exploit a major unexpected opportunity?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I thought the Epic S was supposed to be in the F3 price bracket. There's no reason why progress on that camera can't be announced on Nov 3rd together with the 2/3" Scarlet, there are markets for both cameras.

The 2/3" sensor size is great for documentaries. You don't need FF35 for a cinematic look, "The Hurt Locker" was Super 16

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

With info that RED has announced, it will have two models...

2/3 sensor, 3k @ 120fps

F-SCARLET (Fixed Scarlet): 8x Zoom lens, full fixed. 35mm zoom range of 28mm-224mm. T2.6/F/2.4 throughout the full zoom.

C-SCARLET (Cinema Scarlet): Smaller package due to lack of zoom lens. Utilizes RED Mini Primes which have a "projected" cost of $900-$950 for each prime. Option for a C-Mount and a B4 Mount.

Mini Primes:
6.5mm T1.9
8mm T1.5
16mm T1.5
25mm T1.8
50mm T2.9
75mm T4

This is what has been... confirmed by red as much as you really can confirm right now, but it sounds practical. The price point for the F-Scarlet has been mentioned by Jannard as being around 6k (my guess, 6500-7000).

I too would be surprised if Canon offered something beyond 1080p, and from the pace of things, I dont even know if 1080/60p is something we can expect.... If they offered 2k @ 60p, that would be pretty good and bolster their position in the market a whole lot better... If they want to compete with F3 they gotta do 1080/60 or better...

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

2/3 is nice for reach too. Nothing wrong with 2/3, it's just different than the big CMOS sensors that has received all the attention. Starting with Red One.

3K 120 fps requires a substantial processor package, which makes me wonder a bit about that spec.

I can't get excited at all about yet another lens type.

New Canon at closer to S35 size should have considerably better low light sensitivity than 2/3.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Anything is possible, but November 3 is Scarlet day. Epic-S was conspicuously absent from Red's latest roadmap. When pressed about it, Jim Jannard replied, "The camera you want is at the end of the year." That tells me that the Epic-S as previously specced no longer exists, at least by that name.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

RED could come up with any number of permutations, so no reason why they couldn't change the Epic S name back to Scarlet and complete on the price with the F3 and possibly the new Canon. Their new factory would seem to be capable of producing a larger volume than I suspect the current Epic camera models need.

What turns up on the day remains to be seen, but the demand seems to be for a new camera(s) to be hitting the street, rather than announcing future cameras.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

It's funny I saw a post from Jim Jannard on reduser stating that people should be realistic and this is a Scarlet announcement, I think the rumour mill is going nuts with people expecting a camera as good as Epic for under 10K

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Indeed, there's a good chance that quite a few people will be disappointed by what both Canon and RED offer because it doesn't match their expectations.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I am very very interested as well as plenty of others about what November 3rd might bring us, but I wonder whether it will be as relevant as some expect.
The fact is that with the new 1Dx, the F3 and the Alexa, we already get all cameras needed for production at 3 different point levels (both acquisition and rental).


The 1Dx is the first DSLR engineered to perform on the video side and looks like it will adress the main DSLR culprits: moire, aliasing, skewing and video blotchiness.

The F3 WITH S-Log and an external recorder (even just a 422) is what the doctor oderdered, giving 13.5 stops -which migh increase another stop with the new upcoming firmware- and a lovely image with so much room at post.

The ALEXA with its impressive Dynamic Range, onboard HD 444 "shoot-to-edit", 3k (ARRIRAW), 120fps and RELIABILITY, has instantly become the king of the hill (and has replaced every single RED, at least in the EU), becoming all the camera broadcast drama and film productions need.


So what should Canon bring? If it's a regular S35 422 50Mbps videocamera it will fall behind the F3. To compete with the F3, Canon should bring Log curves which is nothing they have experience with unlike Sony and others. Without LOG the Canon should be well below the $10k mark as for just a few thousands more you can get an F3, which is upgreadable to SLog turning it into a completely different camera.

The other stuff Canon could feature the camera with are 60p and 4K. 4K is great on paper but producers don't care about it as it's for the future and they need to make the money NOW, plus it complicates and increases costs in Post. 60p would be the only thing left, but again we've seen it's LATITUDE what sets cameras apart and 60p@709 won't be as much a feature as it was 3 years ago.

So is it lower PRICE the only thing left to Canon? Or can they also bring an S35, LOG, 60p, 4K camera (a Sony F65 actually) ...for $15k?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

To compete with the F3, just having the S35 422 50Mbps would give it an edge over the basic F3, the s-log etc are all extras on the F3. To go further, Canon would also need the option of recording RAW or log, which is a possibly given that there are a number of 3rd party manufacturers who do offer RAW recorders.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

A price point of $ 7000 like there XL line with an S35 50mbit 422 10 bit codec with a technicolor cinestyle mode would already be very competitive. They could add the ALL-I intraframe codec at 360 mbit in the 1 DX and you would have a very serious competitor to the Sony/Pana/Red(scarlet) in these price point. They are showing what they can do in terms of image quality in the 1DX photo camera. They could also release a higher end camera to compete directly at the RED/Alexa?Sony cine camera.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

A true video camera to replace the 5DII could come as early as this Wed. The rumor that there is more than camera makes sense, as it doesn't seem Canon would use the Hollywood announcement for a $3-4K camera.
At the other end, only announcing $15K PL/EOS mount cine camera would disappoint the legion of 5D/7D video shooters.
If there's a 'wow' from Canon, it will come in sensor quality. They aren't going to radically change the price/performance landscape of video. They did that accidentally with the 5D, and that's not necessarily good for Japan.
We all benefit from Red, even if we never own their product. The Japanese would dribble out small incremental improvements each year forever if given a choice. Let's hope Red doesn't stumble this month.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

This market is very fragmented. Pricepoint is the only way to judge if a product is successful or not. We all know Alexa is great but I don't shoot for Showtime, so Alexa is not a camera I need for my workflow. So if Canon came out with an Alexa competitor I would not be affected.

The interesting angle that Canon brings to the table is their lenses. A lot of folks own still lenses and the L series is very good. So if it comes down to an F3 or FS-100 or a Canon, if you already own the L lenses the Canon looks like a great choice.

We are reaching that point where the image quality is there no matter which camera you choose for most anything outside of major theatre release. I think it will be tough to sell cameras beyond 2012 as they have become so good that the need for upgrading will be greatly diminished. When I look at the 1DX it looks like the last still camera I would ever need and it willprobably cover the video end just as well.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Perhaps a camera that records the scene depth in a separate channel? Like incorporating Kinect but at bettter resolution?

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Again, I look at the XF100 price at $3 K, and wonder what is so difficult about adding larger sensor and adding one of Canon EOS lens designs. With the codec and technology there, the step into a $3 or $4 K full cinema camera is not that difficult to imagine.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Automatic rack focus would be a dream, but so would a camera that did not need add ons.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Actually, November 3rd is Canon Day......which Red has managed to weasel in on, including their event which is taking place across the street from Canon's at Paramount. Now I suspect that Red felt that they could use Canon's draw to funnel people to their event since people were close by.......Anyway, in the words of Yoda..."interesting day, it will be young Skywalker"

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I find this viewpoint is quite interesting.

RED was sort of disruptive technology at the time when Sony and Panavision digital cameras cost a small fortune. Canon's 5D2 did about the same on a lower segment, though unintenntionally, as the video was just an afterthought. But how often has Canon wowed with breaktrough products? It has just released incremental improvements, one after another, whether in video or DSLR land.

Everything has changed now though. There's been the RED, Sony's EX1, the 5D2, ARRI's Alexa, the F3+S-Log and now the Sony F65. All breaktrough products for some reason or another, at unprecedent price points. Is now Canon ready to change its DNA and release a revolutionary product?


By targeting Hollywood, as they've done it, it would be pretty silly to release anything below F3 (with raw/log) specs. But they could also release more than one product. For instance:

-ADVANCED: S35 422 10bit 50Mbps 30fps (60p @ 720) videocam with EOS mount at $6-8k. This would be the natural step up for all the 5D2 people and would improve on Sony's FS100 (8bit) specs.

-PRO: S35 444 10bit SDI Raw/Log 1080HD60p EOS/PL mount camera at around $15-20k.This betters the F3 (60p) and it's the camera targeted at indie Hollywood


I don't think they'll go beyond HD/2K or step into Alexa/F65 territory.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Leading innovation in DSLR:
Use of CMOS instead of CCD - D30
High performance CCD - 1D
Very high res - 1Ds
Low cost high res - 5D
Also 5DII still video, although it's not clear they knew what they had.

Canon has never made a large cmos based video camera. What will that be like? We can be pretty sure that form factor and codecs will resemble their current products. But we don't have much with which to guess on the IQ of the new camera(s).

What they should be providing to us 5DII/7D groupies is a video specific EF lens 1080p camera with extremely good low light performance and very little rolling shutter for less than $3-4K. The worst case is if they consider the 1Dx as part of the video product line, with video specific form factors beginning above that price point.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

If Canon are making a large sensor camera intended for the F3 market, I hope they've worked out their ergonomics. The camera on Nov 3rd may not becoming from the stills camera division, so they could be doing something different to the DSLR cameras, specially if they're planning to use PL mount cine lenses, which are heavier than still lenses.

Modular design seems to be the current trend on a number of the new cameras, although the Alexa layout is liked by many people and this camera is even being used on documentaries. The F3 seems to be getting quite a lot of 3rd party mods and speaking to a Sony rep, it seems they're are listening, so the layout on the next model could be different.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I doubt that canon is up to taking the risk of designing a significant modular system. Plus they're used to being volume sellers. If that continues it means not producing equipment at a high price going primarily to the rental market.
There can't be much incentive financially for them to sell low volume cameras that can make big screen movies.
Yet they're announcing in Hollywood.
My fear is them screwing up the good thing they started with the 5DII........ May have something to do with the ~25 EF mount lenses in my closet........

I have nightmares about accumulating Red Scarlet mini primes.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

The price I heard from a probable major broadcaster source for one model of a Canon camera was in the F3 range, however, if that's accurate remains to be seen. He could be just quoting another rumour. Although, Sony has been doing rather well with these cameras.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Wouldn't surprise me, why would you try and be too cheap. $13k for the base F3 I think is a good price point for Canon. If records to at least 50mbps, has an S35 sensor and EOS mount it would be a winner.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Right about at this time in 10 days, we'll know whats cookin' with Canon.....!!!

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

We wont get an F65 for 15K but we definetely getting something better than F3. Maybe with a future upgrade towards high end.
More than anything I wish EOS Mount video lenses. That can change the game in favor of Canon in many ways.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

What I don't understand is why so many people are obsessed with EOS lenses and expect the camera to be priced under $6k.
EOS lenses are useless for video. They're unsuitable for rack focus, breathe like mad, don't have consistent T stops (just compare an F2.8 Lens to another focal F2.8 Lens), are of different lenght and diameter and they move as they focus, etc etc. It's nice to have them for an occasional shot with fixed focus, specially at the long end, but that's it.

As for the price, with the 1Dx at $7k you can't expect an S35 videocam to cost less. They might release, sooner or later, a 5D3 for $2-4k, but not a videocam for that amount.

If anything the 5D2 has teached to those less experienced with video, it that the entire shooting rig is EXPENSIVE. Regardless the camera body you'll need: a decent set of lenses, as Zeiss ZFs on the lower end at the very least; Baseplate with rods, Mattebox, FF, good ND filters set and a shoulder mount; an EVF and a bigger monitor with waveform and vectorscope; a tripod with a good head costs no less than $5k; a SoundDevices recorder with a 416, Schoeps, lavalier and radio transmitters; plenty of batteries of all sorts; some basic grip set and slider and dolly; a basic set of lights with both Arrilites, Fresnels, Kinos and Dedos (not to mention HMI for daylight); etc, etc.

This means at the most basic intro level we're talking at no less than $30k besides the camera. To this you have to add the Post suite, which is another matter onto itself.

If you just have $2-6K for a camera body, you're still $50k short for everything else you'll definetely require. Film-style shooting -the kind all 5D2 people do- is not like ENG.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

Why not? The Sony VG20 costs about $2K. The difference between the VG20 and the FS100 is $4K. I suspect that most of that can be accounted for by marketing rather than differences in technology or manufacturing costs. The FS100 doesn't even have a filter wheel or HD-SDI, and it's only 8-bit.

Re: Something new from Canon on Nov. 3rd...
 

I think you've missed one of the main lessons of the DSLR video "revolution" entirely. It allows talented people to trade time for money and NOT spend $50K while achieving a cinematic look.
A regular working pro valuing his time is foolish to not make a significant investent, either directly or rental. But vast numbers of talented people can not make that investment in their own work.