24p questions

David Jimerson · June 23rd, 2006, 03:25 PM

That's close, but not QUITE right.

Your final output is important, but for choosing which pulldown to use, the ONLY question to ask is if you're going to be editing in 24p. If you are, then always shoot 24pA. If you're not, then always shoot 24p standard.

Now, when should you edit in 24p? The simple answer is, if you CAN edit in 24p, always do it. (There's an exception that I'll handle separately below, but I don't want to confuse things now.) You will have the option of outputting any which way after you're done editing -- to tape, to Quicktime, to WMV, anything -- but always edit in 24p unless you can't.

So, that basically means, unless you CAN'T edit in 24p, always shoot 24pA.

Obviously, for certain things, like making 24p DVDs, you MUST edit in 24p or you just can't do it.

Most of the top prosumer-level NLEs handle 24p and pulldown removal in some way -- except for Avid Liquid (formerly Pinnacle Edition). In my opinion, the one which stands head and shoulders, by FAR, above the rest for 24p editing is Sony Vegas. It's 100% hassle-free 24p handling.

So, work with Vegas, or Premiere Pro, or Avid Xpress, or Final Cut Pro, and shoot 24pA.

Now, for exceptions (and echoing a bit of what Hugh said):

If you're mixing footage -- 24p and 60i -- and want to retain the look the 60i footage (for showing the difference between the two, for example), then yes, shoot 24p standard and edit in 60i -- otherwise, converting 60i to 24p will destroy the look of 60i and it will look more like 24p.

Or, if you're mixing it with 30p footage, edit in 60i, because 30p is horrible for conversion to 24p.

But those are the only two reasons not to edit in 24p if you can. And, to reiterate, if you're editing in 24p, always shoot 24pA.

David Calvin · June 28th, 2006, 04:47 PM

Hi,

I've been poking around 24p.com and seaching here and I don't see any clues about the problem I had last night..

I shot in 24p, and brought my footage into FCP and specified on the sequence 24fps (from 29.97). And my audio is pretty far out of sync. If I use 29.97, its totally in sync. The sequence shows a frequency for the audio of 48khz. I tried changing that to 44.1 and it was just out of sync in a different way.

Is there a workflow or tipsheet somewhere that can help with bringing 24p footage into a 24fps sequence and getting audio synced?

Should I post this on a FCP forum?

Thanks.

David

Ash Greyson · June 28th, 2006, 06:34 PM

Did you shoot in 24P 2:3? or 24P 2:3:3:2?

ash =o)

David Calvin · June 28th, 2006, 06:38 PM

24p 2:3

David

Joe Winchester · June 28th, 2006, 11:39 PM

Did you capture the footage in 2:3 as well?

David Calvin · June 29th, 2006, 12:57 AM

Not sure I understand.. I said it was 24p 2:3 pulldown. If you are asking for aspect ratio, it was 16x9

Ash Greyson · June 29th, 2006, 01:43 AM

FCP cannot edit 2:3 footage in a 24P timeline, you should edit it in a 29.97 timeline or use Cinema Tools to batch process your clips to remove the pulldown.

ash =o)

Jason Varner · July 1st, 2006, 03:22 AM

Try 30p on for size. It has smoother motion rendering than 24p and still retains a little of the old 24 frame motion blur magic. Plus you don't have to deal with pulldown. I'm kind of on the fence but it seems a little silly to shoot 24p/60i to tape-apply pulldown-edit 24p-author 24p DVD-DVD player reverses pulldown-watch at 60i? Imho the best thing about 24p is using 1/48th shutter when you're shooting in a club or at night. Good Luck.

David Jimerson · July 1st, 2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Varner

Try 30p on for size. It has smoother motion rendering than 24p and still retains a little of the old 24 frame motion blur magic. Plus you don't have to deal with pulldown. I'm kind of on the fence but it seems a little silly to shoot 24p/60i to tape-apply pulldown-edit 24p-author 24p DVD-DVD player reverses pulldown-watch at 60i? Imho the best thing about 24p is using 1/48th shutter when you're shooting in a club or at night. Good Luck.

If it ended up LOOKING like 60i after all that, you might have something there. But it doesn't.

When 2:3 pulldown is added for viewing on 60i display, it retains all of the 24p aesthetic.

Every movie you've ever watched on a standard TV employs pulldown. Surely you can see a worthy difference between 24 fps film/24p video and, say, a soap opera?

30p is fine; a lot of HGTV-type reality shows are shot with it. But it's not quite 24p.

Lucinda Luvaas · July 2nd, 2006, 05:03 PM

Hi There,

I'm using 24p standard while filming with my XL2 and wondering when I go to FCP whether to use progressive or interlaced. I put progressive and have been reading about it, but I'm not 100% sure at this point and don't want to blow it. I'm using 16:9 because I shoot at 16:9 and will output to TV and festivals. My timeline is 29.97 also. Sorry for a naive question, but I'm really not sure of the answer. Thanks again for any help out there!

Jarrod Whaley · July 3rd, 2006, 09:28 AM

Lucinda--

I'm not sure about FCP (I'm a Vegas guy), but you should be able to edit in progressive and then render to whatever your final output requires when the time comes.

I'm a bit confused though... You shot 24p and are editing on a 30p timeline? Forgive me if that's not what you're saying, but it sounds like it is. If so, that probably isn't going to work out. I'd suggest editing on a 24p timeline, since you should have more output options that way.

Greg Boston · July 3rd, 2006, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucinda Luvaas

Hi There,

I'm using 24p standard while filming with my XL2 and wondering when I go to FCP whether to use progressive or interlaced. I put progressive and have been reading about it, but I'm not 100% sure at this point and don't want to blow it. I'm using 16:9 because I shoot at 16:9 and will output to TV and festivals. My timeline is 29.97 also. Sorry for a naive question, but I'm really not sure of the answer. Thanks again for any help out there!

Hi Lucinda,

I use FCP and XL2. If you are shooting 16:9 and 24p standard, you need only select DV NTSC anamorphic for your capture preset. FCP will see the 24P and apply the proper pull down for a 29.97 timeline on ingest. So, your sequence setting would also be NTSC DV anamorphic at 29.97.

When your sequence is finished, export it however you like.

regards,

-gb-

Lucinda Luvaas · July 3rd, 2006, 12:29 PM

Yes, Greg, that's what I did...those are my settings in FCP. Apparently I can use progressive or interlaced with these settings, but I was just wondering which would be best. Do you use progressive with these settings or interlaced? As I mentioned, I was confused by the 29.97 and wasn't sure whether to use interlaced or progressive. I got an email from Graeme Nattress who said I could use either, but I tend to want to use progressive. What do you think?

Allen Thok · July 20th, 2006, 02:11 PM

CAn someone please explain to me the difference between the two. I shot an entire short on 24p, but my editor has problems digitizing it. The footage comes out choppy. PLease someone help and try to explain it to me. What other problems do you think are involved. He is using Final Cut. PLEASE HELP!

Ash Greyson · July 20th, 2006, 03:26 PM

If shot in 24p, then capture/edit in a 60i, 29.97 timeline. If shot in 24PA, then capture removing pulldown and edit in a 24P timeline.

ash =o)

June 23rd, 2006, 03:25 PM	#496
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	That's close, but not QUITE right. Your final output is important, but for choosing which pulldown to use, the ONLY question to ask is if you're going to be editing in 24p. If you are, then always shoot 24pA. If you're not, then always shoot 24p standard. Now, when should you edit in 24p? The simple answer is, if you CAN edit in 24p, always do it. (There's an exception that I'll handle separately below, but I don't want to confuse things now.) You will have the option of outputting any which way after you're done editing -- to tape, to Quicktime, to WMV, anything -- but always edit in 24p unless you can't. So, that basically means, unless you CAN'T edit in 24p, always shoot 24pA. Obviously, for certain things, like making 24p DVDs, you MUST edit in 24p or you just can't do it. Most of the top prosumer-level NLEs handle 24p and pulldown removal in some way -- except for Avid Liquid (formerly Pinnacle Edition). In my opinion, the one which stands head and shoulders, by FAR, above the rest for 24p editing is Sony Vegas. It's 100% hassle-free 24p handling. So, work with Vegas, or Premiere Pro, or Avid Xpress, or Final Cut Pro, and shoot 24pA. Now, for exceptions (and echoing a bit of what Hugh said): If you're mixing footage -- 24p and 60i -- and want to retain the look the 60i footage (for showing the difference between the two, for example), then yes, shoot 24p standard and edit in 60i -- otherwise, converting 60i to 24p will destroy the look of 60i and it will look more like 24p. Or, if you're mixing it with 30p footage, edit in 60i, because 30p is horrible for conversion to 24p. But those are the only two reasons not to edit in 24p if you can. And, to reiterate, if you're editing in 24p, always shoot 24pA. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

June 28th, 2006, 04:47 PM	#497
David Calvin Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Cupertino, Ca Posts: 63	24P and Audio Sync in Post Hi, I've been poking around 24p.com and seaching here and I don't see any clues about the problem I had last night.. I shot in 24p, and brought my footage into FCP and specified on the sequence 24fps (from 29.97). And my audio is pretty far out of sync. If I use 29.97, its totally in sync. The sequence shows a frequency for the audio of 48khz. I tried changing that to 44.1 and it was just out of sync in a different way. Is there a workflow or tipsheet somewhere that can help with bringing 24p footage into a 24fps sequence and getting audio synced? Should I post this on a FCP forum? Thanks. David

June 28th, 2006, 06:38 PM	#499
David Calvin Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Cupertino, Ca Posts: 63	It was 24p 2:3 David

June 29th, 2006, 12:57 AM	#501
David Calvin Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Cupertino, Ca Posts: 63	Uh Not sure I understand.. I said it was 24p 2:3 pulldown. If you are asking for aspect ratio, it was 16x9

July 2nd, 2006, 05:03 PM	#505
Lucinda Luvaas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 233	Another 24P question Hi There, I'm using 24p standard while filming with my XL2 and wondering when I go to FCP whether to use progressive or interlaced. I put progressive and have been reading about it, but I'm not 100% sure at this point and don't want to blow it. I'm using 16:9 because I shoot at 16:9 and will output to TV and festivals. My timeline is 29.97 also. Sorry for a naive question, but I'm really not sure of the answer. Thanks again for any help out there!

June 28th, 2006, 06:34 PM	#498
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Did you shoot in 24P 2:3? or 24P 2:3:3:2? ash =o)

June 28th, 2006, 11:39 PM	#500
Joe Winchester Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 125	Did you capture the footage in 2:3 as well?

June 29th, 2006, 01:43 AM	#502
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	FCP cannot edit 2:3 footage in a 24P timeline, you should edit it in a 29.97 timeline or use Cinema Tools to batch process your clips to remove the pulldown. ash =o)

July 1st, 2006, 03:22 AM	#503
Jason Varner Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 119	Try 30p on for size. It has smoother motion rendering than 24p and still retains a little of the old 24 frame motion blur magic. Plus you don't have to deal with pulldown. I'm kind of on the fence but it seems a little silly to shoot 24p/60i to tape-apply pulldown-edit 24p-author 24p DVD-DVD player reverses pulldown-watch at 60i? Imho the best thing about 24p is using 1/48th shutter when you're shooting in a club or at night. Good Luck.

July 3rd, 2006, 09:28 AM	#506
Jarrod Whaley Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: chattanooga, tn Posts: 721	Lucinda-- I'm not sure about FCP (I'm a Vegas guy), but you should be able to edit in progressive and then render to whatever your final output requires when the time comes. I'm a bit confused though... You shot 24p and are editing on a 30p timeline? Forgive me if that's not what you're saying, but it sounds like it is. If so, that probably isn't going to work out. I'd suggest editing on a 24p timeline, since you should have more output options that way. __________________ -->jarrod whaley. www.oakstreetfilms.com

July 3rd, 2006, 12:29 PM	#508
Lucinda Luvaas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 233	Yes, Greg, that's what I did...those are my settings in FCP. Apparently I can use progressive or interlaced with these settings, but I was just wondering which would be best. Do you use progressive with these settings or interlaced? As I mentioned, I was confused by the 29.97 and wasn't sure whether to use interlaced or progressive. I got an email from Graeme Nattress who said I could use either, but I tend to want to use progressive. What do you think?

July 20th, 2006, 02:11 PM	#509
Allen Thok New Boot Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 17	HELP 24p or 24pa? CAn someone please explain to me the difference between the two. I shot an entire short on 24p, but my editor has problems digitizing it. The footage comes out choppy. PLease someone help and try to explain it to me. What other problems do you think are involved. He is using Final Cut. PLEASE HELP!

July 20th, 2006, 03:26 PM	#510
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	If shot in 24p, then capture/edit in a 60i, 29.97 timeline. If shot in 24PA, then capture removing pulldown and edit in a 24P timeline. ash =o)