24p questions

Gregory Dillard · April 28th, 2006, 04:32 PM

not to sound ignorant, but how do i process it in Cinema Tools?

Lucinda Luvaas · May 26th, 2006, 12:39 AM

So sorry to belabor this issue, but I am a little confused and would like some clarification about the 24P, 24Pa issue. I've read many of the posts about this and get the impression that I should go with the 24Pa because this is true 24p. I'm using FCP and I have both a TV monitor, my LCD screen on the IMac and a JVC high res monitor that I purchased for in the field and post work. If the footage is progressive, how will that read on the tv monitors? I do see how to do the settings in FCP. I figured that out. But, I'm still not sure whether to shoot in 24P or 24Pa..... I show my shorts on TV, Galleries and Festivals. I'm filming tomorrow and will try the setting import into FCP and see what it looks like, but if anyone could help that would be great. One problem is that people here have different opinions about settings and such and that's why I get a little confused because I'm new to using 24p. I wanted to try because I have been using 30p on my XL2 and loving how it looks, but I originally purchased the cam so that I could have the broader range and use 24p.

Lucinda

Matthew Nayman · May 26th, 2006, 06:32 AM

I was very confused for the first few months. Here it is simply.

24p, be it advanced or not, has a certain look. It looks more like film due to the stuttery motion.

24p (2:3) Records 24 Progressive frames, and then adds a pulldown so you can edit in a 60i (regular) timeline. It still looks like 24p, but you master normal DVD's, export to VHS, ETC.

24pA (2:3:3:2) Records 24 Progressive frames per second, but adds a 2:3:3:2 pulldown which means you capture it in a 24p timeline, not a 60i timeline. Your NLE is smart enough to remove the 2:3:3:2 pulldown (it can't remove a 2:3) and give true 24p. This is great for 24p DVD's and if you plan to export to film.

It really becomes a choice between which timeline you want to edit in, and how you want to master the film. But be warned, mixing the two 24p styles on one timeline can be a pain in the arse, and you can't record 24pA on the same tape as 24p!

Matt

Lucinda Luvaas · May 26th, 2006, 11:31 AM

Matthew,

Thanks for the tip about not recording both on the same tape! I had been planning on doing a test today, using actually three different tapes because I would like to record at 30p and see what the difference is.

I do make dvd's and dvd-r's. Would I be able to do this is I use 24p advanced? or only 24p?

I also screen videos on tv. Would I be able to make a VHS, S-VHS and dvd-r's for this output?

These are my concerns.

I think I have the settings in FCP correct and I do understand the pull down info you sent.

Some threads have mentioned that 24advanced actually looks better than 24p, so that makes me feel that I should go with the former and not the latter? what say you?

I really appreciate your advice because I start shooting tests this afternoon.

I'm going to read more on this, as much as I can, to make the right decision.

One more thing: is it the case, as I think has been said on these forums, that I should use 29.97 in my timeline? for the 24p? I already have the settings for 24advanced....will they both 24padvanced and 24p stutter when I'm looking at the tv while editing?

Sorry to be a novice! in this at any rate. I've been using 30p and as I said, have been delighted with the quality of my Canon XL2.

lucinda

Matthew Nayman · May 26th, 2006, 02:14 PM

Ok, you can burn 24p DVDs, and most DVD players have intelligent pulldown appliers, which add a 24 pulldown to 24p DVDs so they show on interlace TV screens. As for VHS, I haven't tried. You might run into a dumb DVD player and it'll look funky, but if it's hooked up to a progressive scan TV, the 24pA looks amazing.

I usually shoot the 2:3 pulldown, not 2:3:3:2 cause it looks jsut as good. It keeps it simple and can go on any tape or DVD or VHS! Just not to film (well it can, but complicated).

Lucinda Luvaas · May 26th, 2006, 04:35 PM

Matthew:

24p stutters,not on the monitor, but on the TV and 24p advanced doesn't move on the TV, but does on the monitor and does when I watch it from the XL2 on the TV......ugh! what should I do now? anyone? please help! can I not watch the output on a TV monitor using 24pa? what should I do about the stuttering in 24standard. I remember reading about that, but don't remember where....and I have my people coming in half and hour...ugh.

David Jimerson · May 26th, 2006, 06:00 PM

A few points --

ALL DVD players can insert 2:3 pulldown when playing a 24p DVD. Every Hollywood movie is put to disc as 24p.

Lucinda, what kind of a "stutter" are you talking about, and what are you playing it from?

24p (in general; any pulldown, and 24 fps film as well) will strobe, and possibly badly, if you move the camera too quickly. If you have that kind of a strobe, there's nothing that can be done about in post; the only fix is to reshoot and move the camera more slowly.

You can watch 24pA footage on a monitor, because it, too, is in 60i; the frames are just arranged differently. However, it's not ideal for for it because it will have more pronounced stutter issues, due to back-to-back repetition of frames in the 60i stream.

Going to a 24p DVD, you do not use a pulldown scheme -- neither normal 2:3 pulldown, nor advanced 2:3:3:2 pulldown. You encode a straight 24p file, and then the player inserts 2:3 pulldown.

FCP should have no problem previewing out from either a 24p timeline or a 60i timeline to a TV.

If you shot in 24pA, then edit in a 24p timeline in FCP, and capture accordingly. You can then either render a straight 24p file (MPEG) for making a 24p DVD, or you can render out as DV, re-inserting 2:3 pulldown, to go out to DV tape or VHS.

If you shot in 24p (standard pulldown), then in FCP, it's easier to edit on a 60i (29.98) timeline -- but you will have to go through a number of hoops to make a 24p DVD. Because you never remove pulldown, making a DV or VHS tape is no worry.

Lucinda Luvaas · May 26th, 2006, 07:33 PM

David,

Thanks for answering my call for help.

I meant that the footage looks somewhat jerky on the TV, not the IMac, not in FCP and this is in standard 24p. I was able to watch on the TV monitor with this frame rate, but when I tried to watch the 24padvanced, the TV just stayed on one frame while it progressed on my timeline. It I scrubbed the timeline, the images would scrub on the TV, but so far I've not figured out how to get the TV to work properly, to move as the timeline is. My settings in FCP are for the 24padvanced, not 24p. Are you saying that I should have shot the test footage in 24padvanced and then used settings not for 24padvanced, but 24p in FCP? I used the 23.98, instead of 29.98.

It seems to look lusher, the colors and clearer in 24pa too. Is this the case? or are both 24standard and 24advanced the same? I know one is true film frame rate and the other is not.

Also, I have a dvd recorder, not a burner. I record my dvd's in real time...dvd-rs, so I'm not sure that my Panasonic DVD recorder will read and burn 24p or 24padvanced. Do you know by any chance?

Thanks so much if you can help me with this.....I am so very grateful. I am reading and researching as much as I can and am sure that I'm find the answers.

David Jimerson · May 26th, 2006, 10:09 PM

Well, unforunately, I don't have enough time in the trenches with FCP to really pinpoint your problem there, but if you captured the 24pA footage correctly and are editing in a 23.98 timeline, then FCP should be able to display it properly on your TV. You might want to check in the FCP areas for advice on that. I'm actually a Vegas guy.

There's a persistent myth out there that 24pA is "true 24p" and that 24p standard isn't, but that's just not so. 24p and 24pA should look, in terms of color, etc. identical unless you shot them with different settings. The only difference between them is how the frames are split up and put into a 60i stream. Otherwise, they're the same. They are both acquired by reading the CCDs progressively (whole pictures, not fields) 24 times per second. They're both recorded to tape as 60i -- just in a different arrangement of fields as compared to the original 24p frames.

24pA is more efficient in terms of extracting the original 24p frames from the 60i stream, so it's ideal if you want to edit in native 24p. But it's no more "true" 24p than 24p standard is.

About your DVD recorder --

I doubt seriously that it burns 24p discs, because the feeds going into it are going to be 60i (29.97). Your preview feed from FCP will be, so it will record to DVD as 29.98. That being the case, make sure FCP is previewing with 2:3 pulldown (which I'd think it does at default, if you even have a choice). As far as your DVD recorder will be concerned, it's just receiving a 29.98 feed.

The only way to burn a 24p DVD is to use an authoring program capable of it and burning it with a burner, because you have to make a 24p file, no pulldown at all.

(NOTE: 29.97, 29.976, and 29.98 all generally refer to the same thing; different apps note it differently, because all three of them are just approximations. Same with 23.976, 23.98, 23.97, etc.)

Greg Boston · May 26th, 2006, 11:17 PM

Lucinda,

I strongly advise you to go to http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html and scroll down to where you see in bold type '24p standard' and read those two sections and look at the graphics next to the text. Adam has one of the best explanations I have seen regarding the difference between the two methods of recording 24p into a 60i stream and then recovering it back to 24p.

The difference is subtle, but there is a difference in the two modes. After all, if there were no difference, Canon would not have needed to include both methods in the camera. And as Adam notes, not everyone can see the difference in the two during playback.

regards,

-gb-

Lucinda Luvaas · May 27th, 2006, 11:38 AM

Thanks David, for your explanation. I'm still not understanding why the picture on the TV stays on one frame rather than progressing. I think I have the right settings unless FCP is changing them back to some default....

I'm not sure about the dvd-r problem tho' and will research that further. I can just try to make a dvd-r and see what transpires. I have a few weeks before my next shoot and want to make sure all is correct in terms of which frame rate I choose.

Someone said on this forum that you can make dvd's, but that might be as you say, if you use an authoring program rather than using the dvd recorder.

I do have FC Studio which comes included with an authoring program...so I might have to go in that direction with this film.

Thanks again for your help!

Lucinda

Charles Penn · May 29th, 2006, 06:03 PM

Hey guys, please read the embedded email exchange and tell me if Tom is right. Thanks.

Chuck

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's 24p advanced. That cannot be imported correctly into FCE. It needs to be imported with advanced pulldown removal and is designed for editing in a 23.987 sequence, which FCE cannot do.

On May 29, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Harambe823@aol.com wrote:

Tom, how do I set up my FCE settings to import video shot in 16:9/ 24p with my Canon XL2? I went into Easy Setup and I note 'DV-NTSC' and 'DV-NTSC Anamorphic.'

My camera (as you probably already know) is designed to shoot 16:9 and in fact, I'm told, it is preferred that people shoot 16:9, because the video is better. Then the image is cropped at 4:3, if that is your preference for conventional TV screens.

The FCE Help section alludes to 'Anamorphic' but I believe the instructions are geared toward people with Anamorphic converters. I'm confused.

Please tell me what setting I should use to import my video into FCE with the format I shot it in -- that is 16:9, 24p 2:3:3:2. Also, I used 16 bit audio. Thank you so much for your help.

Chuck

PS: I have your book, 'Editing Workshop.' Nice work.

Matthew Wauhkonen · May 29th, 2006, 06:48 PM

Yeah, FCP only.

Greg Boston · May 30th, 2006, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucinda Luvaas

I do have FC Studio which comes included with an authoring program...so I might have to go in that direction with this film.

You've got a very good authoring program in DVD Studio Pro. It will do anythng you want to do with it.

-gb-

Lucinda Luvaas · May 31st, 2006, 10:29 PM

That's great Greg. I'm sure I'll get around to learning it.

I've got everything figured out with this problem. 24P works fine and looks fine. So all is set to go for my first shoot.

Thanks so much again for your help!

Lucinda

May 26th, 2006, 12:39 AM	#467
Lucinda Luvaas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 233	Another 24P question So sorry to belabor this issue, but I am a little confused and would like some clarification about the 24P, 24Pa issue. I've read many of the posts about this and get the impression that I should go with the 24Pa because this is true 24p. I'm using FCP and I have both a TV monitor, my LCD screen on the IMac and a JVC high res monitor that I purchased for in the field and post work. If the footage is progressive, how will that read on the tv monitors? I do see how to do the settings in FCP. I figured that out. But, I'm still not sure whether to shoot in 24P or 24Pa..... I show my shorts on TV, Galleries and Festivals. I'm filming tomorrow and will try the setting import into FCP and see what it looks like, but if anyone could help that would be great. One problem is that people here have different opinions about settings and such and that's why I get a little confused because I'm new to using 24p. I wanted to try because I have been using 30p on my XL2 and loving how it looks, but I originally purchased the cam so that I could have the broader range and use 24p. Lucinda

May 26th, 2006, 06:00 PM	#472
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	A few points -- ALL DVD players can insert 2:3 pulldown when playing a 24p DVD. Every Hollywood movie is put to disc as 24p. Lucinda, what kind of a "stutter" are you talking about, and what are you playing it from? 24p (in general; any pulldown, and 24 fps film as well) will strobe, and possibly badly, if you move the camera too quickly. If you have that kind of a strobe, there's nothing that can be done about in post; the only fix is to reshoot and move the camera more slowly. You can watch 24pA footage on a monitor, because it, too, is in 60i; the frames are just arranged differently. However, it's not ideal for for it because it will have more pronounced stutter issues, due to back-to-back repetition of frames in the 60i stream. Going to a 24p DVD, you do not use a pulldown scheme -- neither normal 2:3 pulldown, nor advanced 2:3:3:2 pulldown. You encode a straight 24p file, and then the player inserts 2:3 pulldown. FCP should have no problem previewing out from either a 24p timeline or a 60i timeline to a TV. If you shot in 24pA, then edit in a 24p timeline in FCP, and capture accordingly. You can then either render a straight 24p file (MPEG) for making a 24p DVD, or you can render out as DV, re-inserting 2:3 pulldown, to go out to DV tape or VHS. If you shot in 24p (standard pulldown), then in FCP, it's easier to edit on a 60i (29.98) timeline -- but you will have to go through a number of hoops to make a 24p DVD. Because you never remove pulldown, making a DV or VHS tape is no worry. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

May 26th, 2006, 10:09 PM	#474
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Well, unforunately, I don't have enough time in the trenches with FCP to really pinpoint your problem there, but if you captured the 24pA footage correctly and are editing in a 23.98 timeline, then FCP should be able to display it properly on your TV. You might want to check in the FCP areas for advice on that. I'm actually a Vegas guy. There's a persistent myth out there that 24pA is "true 24p" and that 24p standard isn't, but that's just not so. 24p and 24pA should look, in terms of color, etc. identical unless you shot them with different settings. The only difference between them is how the frames are split up and put into a 60i stream. Otherwise, they're the same. They are both acquired by reading the CCDs progressively (whole pictures, not fields) 24 times per second. They're both recorded to tape as 60i -- just in a different arrangement of fields as compared to the original 24p frames. 24pA is more efficient in terms of extracting the original 24p frames from the 60i stream, so it's ideal if you want to edit in native 24p. But it's no more "true" 24p than 24p standard is. About your DVD recorder -- I doubt seriously that it burns 24p discs, because the feeds going into it are going to be 60i (29.97). Your preview feed from FCP will be, so it will record to DVD as 29.98. That being the case, make sure FCP is previewing with 2:3 pulldown (which I'd think it does at default, if you even have a choice). As far as your DVD recorder will be concerned, it's just receiving a 29.98 feed. The only way to burn a 24p DVD is to use an authoring program capable of it and burning it with a burner, because you have to make a 24p file, no pulldown at all. (NOTE: 29.97, 29.976, and 29.98 all generally refer to the same thing; different apps note it differently, because all three of them are just approximations. Same with 23.976, 23.98, 23.97, etc.) __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

May 29th, 2006, 06:03 PM	#477
Charles Penn Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Port St. Lucie, Florida Posts: 103	Say it isn't so. I'm well into my project/ 16:9 24p Hey guys, please read the embedded email exchange and tell me if Tom is right. Thanks. Chuck -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's 24p advanced. That cannot be imported correctly into FCE. It needs to be imported with advanced pulldown removal and is designed for editing in a 23.987 sequence, which FCE cannot do. On May 29, 2006, at 8:01 AM, Harambe823@aol.com wrote: Tom, how do I set up my FCE settings to import video shot in 16:9/ 24p with my Canon XL2? I went into Easy Setup and I note 'DV-NTSC' and 'DV-NTSC Anamorphic.' My camera (as you probably already know) is designed to shoot 16:9 and in fact, I'm told, it is preferred that people shoot 16:9, because the video is better. Then the image is cropped at 4:3, if that is your preference for conventional TV screens. The FCE Help section alludes to 'Anamorphic' but I believe the instructions are geared toward people with Anamorphic converters. I'm confused. Please tell me what setting I should use to import my video into FCE with the format I shot it in -- that is 16:9, 24p 2:3:3:2. Also, I used 16 bit audio. Thank you so much for your help. Chuck PS: I have your book, 'Editing Workshop.' Nice work.

April 28th, 2006, 04:32 PM	#466
Gregory Dillard Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 55	not to sound ignorant, but how do i process it in Cinema Tools?

May 26th, 2006, 06:32 AM	#468
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	I was very confused for the first few months. Here it is simply. 24p, be it advanced or not, has a certain look. It looks more like film due to the stuttery motion. 24p (2:3) Records 24 Progressive frames, and then adds a pulldown so you can edit in a 60i (regular) timeline. It still looks like 24p, but you master normal DVD's, export to VHS, ETC. 24pA (2:3:3:2) Records 24 Progressive frames per second, but adds a 2:3:3:2 pulldown which means you capture it in a 24p timeline, not a 60i timeline. Your NLE is smart enough to remove the 2:3:3:2 pulldown (it can't remove a 2:3) and give true 24p. This is great for 24p DVD's and if you plan to export to film. It really becomes a choice between which timeline you want to edit in, and how you want to master the film. But be warned, mixing the two 24p styles on one timeline can be a pain in the arse, and you can't record 24pA on the same tape as 24p! Matt

May 26th, 2006, 11:31 AM	#469
Lucinda Luvaas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 233	Matthew, Thanks for the tip about not recording both on the same tape! I had been planning on doing a test today, using actually three different tapes because I would like to record at 30p and see what the difference is. I do make dvd's and dvd-r's. Would I be able to do this is I use 24p advanced? or only 24p? I also screen videos on tv. Would I be able to make a VHS, S-VHS and dvd-r's for this output? These are my concerns. I think I have the settings in FCP correct and I do understand the pull down info you sent. Some threads have mentioned that 24advanced actually looks better than 24p, so that makes me feel that I should go with the former and not the latter? what say you? I really appreciate your advice because I start shooting tests this afternoon. I'm going to read more on this, as much as I can, to make the right decision. One more thing: is it the case, as I think has been said on these forums, that I should use 29.97 in my timeline? for the 24p? I already have the settings for 24advanced....will they both 24padvanced and 24p stutter when I'm looking at the tv while editing? Sorry to be a novice! in this at any rate. I've been using 30p and as I said, have been delighted with the quality of my Canon XL2. lucinda

May 26th, 2006, 02:14 PM	#470
Matthew Nayman Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 917	Ok, you can burn 24p DVDs, and most DVD players have intelligent pulldown appliers, which add a 24 pulldown to 24p DVDs so they show on interlace TV screens. As for VHS, I haven't tried. You might run into a dumb DVD player and it'll look funky, but if it's hooked up to a progressive scan TV, the 24pA looks amazing. I usually shoot the 2:3 pulldown, not 2:3:3:2 cause it looks jsut as good. It keeps it simple and can go on any tape or DVD or VHS! Just not to film (well it can, but complicated).

May 26th, 2006, 04:35 PM	#471
Lucinda Luvaas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 233	Matthew: 24p stutters,not on the monitor, but on the TV and 24p advanced doesn't move on the TV, but does on the monitor and does when I watch it from the XL2 on the TV......ugh! what should I do now? anyone? please help! can I not watch the output on a TV monitor using 24pa? what should I do about the stuttering in 24standard. I remember reading about that, but don't remember where....and I have my people coming in half and hour...ugh.

May 26th, 2006, 07:33 PM	#473
Lucinda Luvaas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 233	David, Thanks for answering my call for help. I meant that the footage looks somewhat jerky on the TV, not the IMac, not in FCP and this is in standard 24p. I was able to watch on the TV monitor with this frame rate, but when I tried to watch the 24padvanced, the TV just stayed on one frame while it progressed on my timeline. It I scrubbed the timeline, the images would scrub on the TV, but so far I've not figured out how to get the TV to work properly, to move as the timeline is. My settings in FCP are for the 24padvanced, not 24p. Are you saying that I should have shot the test footage in 24padvanced and then used settings not for 24padvanced, but 24p in FCP? I used the 23.98, instead of 29.98. It seems to look lusher, the colors and clearer in 24pa too. Is this the case? or are both 24standard and 24advanced the same? I know one is true film frame rate and the other is not. Also, I have a dvd recorder, not a burner. I record my dvd's in real time...dvd-rs, so I'm not sure that my Panasonic DVD recorder will read and burn 24p or 24padvanced. Do you know by any chance? Thanks so much if you can help me with this.....I am so very grateful. I am reading and researching as much as I can and am sure that I'm find the answers.

May 26th, 2006, 11:17 PM	#475
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Lucinda, I strongly advise you to go to http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html and scroll down to where you see in bold type '24p standard' and read those two sections and look at the graphics next to the text. Adam has one of the best explanations I have seen regarding the difference between the two methods of recording 24p into a 60i stream and then recovering it back to 24p. The difference is subtle, but there is a difference in the two modes. After all, if there were no difference, Canon would not have needed to include both methods in the camera. And as Adam notes, not everyone can see the difference in the two during playback. regards, -gb-

May 27th, 2006, 11:38 AM	#476
Lucinda Luvaas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 233	Thanks David, for your explanation. I'm still not understanding why the picture on the TV stays on one frame rather than progressing. I think I have the right settings unless FCP is changing them back to some default.... I'm not sure about the dvd-r problem tho' and will research that further. I can just try to make a dvd-r and see what transpires. I have a few weeks before my next shoot and want to make sure all is correct in terms of which frame rate I choose. Someone said on this forum that you can make dvd's, but that might be as you say, if you use an authoring program rather than using the dvd recorder. I do have FC Studio which comes included with an authoring program...so I might have to go in that direction with this film. Thanks again for your help! Lucinda

May 29th, 2006, 06:48 PM	#478
Matthew Wauhkonen Major Player Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 285	Yeah, FCP only.

May 31st, 2006, 10:29 PM	#480
Lucinda Luvaas Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 233	That's great Greg. I'm sure I'll get around to learning it. I've got everything figured out with this problem. 24P works fine and looks fine. So all is set to go for my first shoot. Thanks so much again for your help! Lucinda