24p questions

Phil Rogerson · December 5th, 2005, 05:00 PM

Jeremy -- My only experience is with FCP editing, and 25p, so my help may not be relevant... but I had major problems when my sequence settings didn't match my camera settings, ie Field Dominance for 25p capture should have been set to 'none'.

Timeline, I'd say try and see. Set up two projects, one for each setting you wish to try, then place the problem causing clips in each project and compare results.

I recommend setting the time line with the same settings you shot at.

Ash Greyson · December 6th, 2005, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Harrington

alright, so if I want to edit my 24p footage correctly in pp1.5 I should put the fields to No feilds (Progressive Scan) ?

what about the timebase? should I keep that at 29.97?

and what about the drop frame thing? I am a newbie with 24p so sorry if this is an easy question

How was your footage shot? Was it in 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 ??? The former should be editing in a 60i 29.97 timeline with lower field first, the later in a 24P, 24FPS timeline, with NO fields. In theory, anything should work in any timeline but there will be conversions and that can introduce the problems many people see. Also, the standard built in de-interlacer for Premiere is not very good...

ash =o)

Phil Rogerson · December 6th, 2005, 02:44 AM

Jeremy -- I may not have the solution to the problem at all! The edited footage looks clear of aliasing when I enlarge the 'canvas' (Final Cut's view of the timeline) and play in full screen in 16:9, but when I export the footage, it's just like before, full of the wriggles and aliasing. I export with identical settings to the sequence ('use current settings'), but the movie is squashed to 4:3 and awful.

There's not a ready-made preset for the 25p timeline, nor one for 25p sequence settings in FCP, and though I've customised till exhausted, I can't get the exported version to mirror the clarity of the sequence played in FCP's timeline; the editing is just one clip without need for rendering.

So... I'm off to search the editing forums for settings for progressive editing.

Ash... any ideas. I realise you're using NTSC, but maybe?

I shot in 16:9, 25p PAL, at 1/50sec. Strange thing is, when I use the pre-set 'DV PAL 48 kHz', with 'lower field dominance' the clip exports as a 16:9 format movie, but with prominent aliasing.

I guess I'd better ask further questions in an edit forum.

Miguel Lombana · December 6th, 2005, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Harrington

alright, so if I want to edit my 24p footage correctly in pp1.5 I should put the fields to No feilds (Progressive Scan) ?

what about the timebase? should I keep that at 29.97?

and what about the drop frame thing? I am a newbie with 24p so sorry if this is an easy question

Have you tried starting your project using the Panasonic 24p preset? I believe that is what it was setup for. I don't shoot 24p, only 30p (don't like the sluggishness of 24p) but when I did some testing when I first got the cam, that was the preset that I used.

ml

Jeremy Harrington · December 6th, 2005, 12:15 PM

Where is the panasonic 24p preset?

Ash Greyson · December 8th, 2005, 01:32 AM

Not sure Phil... are you exporting to tape or are your digital files showing this?

ash =o)

Phil Rogerson · December 8th, 2005, 03:58 AM

Ash... The images I wrote of where exported as a Quicktime movie from FCP 4.5.

I discovered that I could improve the DVD resolution using a Quicktime conversion with 2 pass VBR, and tweaking the bit rate settings; and even better by exporting the sequence from FCP using Compressor, and converting to MPEG-2 using 60 minute High Quality Widescreen.

Most of the aliasing has gone, but I notice there still lingers some artifacting on some pans, but I note they are on the original and there's no chance of that changing.

I know now that some issues definitely exist with PAL 25p at 50 fps on shots where the camera moves anything more than super slowly, but I've not completely exhausted all test scenarios, like dropping the coring. I'll do that just as soon as it stops raining!

One thing I've learnt: some of the aliasing that shows in the EVF, like a thin line that off-vertical, does not show in the captured footage when viewed in FCP's canvas at full screen, and that's interesting.

Steve Smith · December 8th, 2005, 08:11 AM

you might want to try
http://www.wrigleyvideo.com/forum/index.php

for specific PPro 1.5 setting questions.

Phil Rogerson · December 10th, 2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

Yes, that's what progressive is. There is NO interlace. Therefore, there aren't any 'fields' just whole frames. Glad you got it figured out so you can enjoy your camera for the great camera it is.
regards,
-gb-

Greg: I'm not entirely convinced that what you say is the case with PAL processing, at least not according to the PAL XL2 manual. On page 42 it reads, "25p Mode. Records 25 fps progressive mode and outputs signals converted into 50 fps interlaced." There is an accompanying diagram showing individual frames labelled A,B, etc, then below, another diagram labelled 'Tape'. That diagram shows each of those single frames have been split into two fields: aa, bb, etc.

Assuming this diagram correctly represents the process from camera to tape, and that the word 'interlaced' is used correctly by Canon, the information 'Captured' from tape into FCP will be interlaced.

If that is indeed true, should not the 'field dominance' setting in FCP be as for interlaced PAL, 'lower field dominant'? Or, is one of the 'aa, bb, etc' fields discarded on capture?

I realise you work with NTSC Greg, but you may be able to help dissolve my confusion.

Thanks for your comments -- phil.

Phil Rogerson · December 11th, 2005, 01:46 AM

<<I personally dont see any point at all in editing in a 24P timeline unless you are delivering for film out. There is much argument over it but I prefer to shoot 24P with 2:3 pulldown and edit in 60i... I never have these moire or aliasing issues...

quote: Ash >>

Ash: There's an interesting article by Graeme Nattress here:

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage..._nattress.html

In the third last paragraph of the article Graeme suggests that editing in a 24p timeline allows a higher quality DVD product than a 29.97 one because higher bit rates can be used, although I'd guess that's probably only an issue if you're getting close to maximum storage on the disc.

He also writes of faster rendering using a 24p timeline.

But I'm still interested to learn why you prefer to edit on a 60i timeline even when you've captured at 24p, aside from that you said you've not experienced moire/aliasing issues when editing that way.

Richard Hunter · December 11th, 2005, 06:50 PM

[QUOTE=Phil Rogerson]
If that is indeed true, should not the 'field dominance' setting in FCP be as for interlaced PAL, 'lower field dominant'? Or, is one of the 'aa, bb, etc' fields discarded on capture?

I realise you work with NTSC Greg, but you may be able to help dissolve my confusion.

QUOTE]

Hi Phil. The video is captured progressive, but is split into fields in order to be carried on the PAL interlaced video stream. Each field has different data (odd or even lines) that needs to be combined correctly by the NLE in order to recover each full frame.

If the NLE is set to lower field dominant, then any operation that requires full frame processing will cause the NLE to deinterlace the video and effectively discard half of the video data. If the NLE is aware that the video is progressive, it will process the full frame data correctly with no loss of vertical resolution.

Richard

Alexis Vazquez · December 13th, 2005, 09:02 PM

Any recomendation to avoid stuttering while shooting 24p mode. I don't use this mode too much and last atempt was a nightmare.
Thanks

Alexis

Eric Brown · December 13th, 2005, 09:13 PM

I believe there are a few threads on this already. But, tell us what exactly you are attempting to shoot? Is it a fast action sequence with quick pans?
The strobing is inherent to 24p. What may be useful, if this is indeed the case, is to set the shutter speed higher at around 1/1200? or so to better capture fast action.

A. J. deLange · December 14th, 2005, 06:11 AM

Recomendation: don't use 24p. 24p is to be used (1) when one is transferring to film and (2) when one wishes to simulate the stutter of film.

Alexis Vazquez · December 14th, 2005, 07:39 AM

Hi , this won't be for film transfer, just video to DVD. I used 24p just to give it a try and see the video with a more film taste. I was shooting some sport scenes: Karate, Swiming, Jogging. Not much pans but a lot of fast actions like kicking and all that karate things. I knew about the film alike stutter but this was way too much. I don't remember the settings I used but in some ocassions it looks awsome maybe in automatic mode) , so I thought it was more a setting issue. I search yesterday without any luck, today I did found some but more about the pulldown thing and for film transfering wich I'm not planning to do.

December 5th, 2005, 05:00 PM	#376
Phil Rogerson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Denmark, Western Australia. Posts: 25	Jeremy -- My only experience is with FCP editing, and 25p, so my help may not be relevant... but I had major problems when my sequence settings didn't match my camera settings, ie Field Dominance for 25p capture should have been set to 'none'. Timeline, I'd say try and see. Set up two projects, one for each setting you wish to try, then place the problem causing clips in each project and compare results. I recommend setting the time line with the same settings you shot at. __________________ aspirant

December 6th, 2005, 02:44 AM	#378
Phil Rogerson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Denmark, Western Australia. Posts: 25	Looks good before exported Jeremy -- I may not have the solution to the problem at all! The edited footage looks clear of aliasing when I enlarge the 'canvas' (Final Cut's view of the timeline) and play in full screen in 16:9, but when I export the footage, it's just like before, full of the wriggles and aliasing. I export with identical settings to the sequence ('use current settings'), but the movie is squashed to 4:3 and awful. There's not a ready-made preset for the 25p timeline, nor one for 25p sequence settings in FCP, and though I've customised till exhausted, I can't get the exported version to mirror the clarity of the sequence played in FCP's timeline; the editing is just one clip without need for rendering. So... I'm off to search the editing forums for settings for progressive editing. Ash... any ideas. I realise you're using NTSC, but maybe? I shot in 16:9, 25p PAL, at 1/50sec. Strange thing is, when I use the pre-set 'DV PAL 48 kHz', with 'lower field dominance' the clip exports as a 16:9 format movie, but with prominent aliasing. I guess I'd better ask further questions in an edit forum. __________________ aspirant

December 6th, 2005, 12:15 PM	#380
Jeremy Harrington New Boot Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 21	Where is it Where is the panasonic 24p preset?

December 8th, 2005, 03:58 AM	#382
Phil Rogerson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Denmark, Western Australia. Posts: 25	Exporting to Quicktime movie, then burnt to DVD Ash... The images I wrote of where exported as a Quicktime movie from FCP 4.5. I discovered that I could improve the DVD resolution using a Quicktime conversion with 2 pass VBR, and tweaking the bit rate settings; and even better by exporting the sequence from FCP using Compressor, and converting to MPEG-2 using 60 minute High Quality Widescreen. Most of the aliasing has gone, but I notice there still lingers some artifacting on some pans, but I note they are on the original and there's no chance of that changing. I know now that some issues definitely exist with PAL 25p at 50 fps on shots where the camera moves anything more than super slowly, but I've not completely exhausted all test scenarios, like dropping the coring. I'll do that just as soon as it stops raining! One thing I've learnt: some of the aliasing that shows in the EVF, like a thin line that off-vertical, does not show in the captured footage when viewed in FCP's canvas at full screen, and that's interesting. __________________ aspirant

December 8th, 2005, 08:11 AM	#383
Steve Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Munich Germany Posts: 31	you might want to try http://www.wrigleyvideo.com/forum/index.php for specific PPro 1.5 setting questions. __________________ Gone Fishing. If you need me, please wait! If it is important, please wait longer.

December 8th, 2005, 01:32 AM	#381
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	Not sure Phil... are you exporting to tape or are your digital files showing this? ash =o)

December 11th, 2005, 01:46 AM	#385
Phil Rogerson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Denmark, Western Australia. Posts: 25	24p timeline advantages <<I personally dont see any point at all in editing in a 24P timeline unless you are delivering for film out. There is much argument over it but I prefer to shoot 24P with 2:3 pulldown and edit in 60i... I never have these moire or aliasing issues... quote: Ash >> Ash: There's an interesting article by Graeme Nattress here: http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage..._nattress.html In the third last paragraph of the article Graeme suggests that editing in a 24p timeline allows a higher quality DVD product than a 29.97 one because higher bit rates can be used, although I'd guess that's probably only an issue if you're getting close to maximum storage on the disc. He also writes of faster rendering using a 24p timeline. But I'm still interested to learn why you prefer to edit on a 60i timeline even when you've captured at 24p, aside from that you said you've not experienced moire/aliasing issues when editing that way. __________________ aspirant

December 11th, 2005, 06:50 PM	#386
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	[QUOTE=Phil Rogerson] If that is indeed true, should not the 'field dominance' setting in FCP be as for interlaced PAL, 'lower field dominant'? Or, is one of the 'aa, bb, etc' fields discarded on capture? I realise you work with NTSC Greg, but you may be able to help dissolve my confusion. QUOTE] Hi Phil. The video is captured progressive, but is split into fields in order to be carried on the PAL interlaced video stream. Each field has different data (odd or even lines) that needs to be combined correctly by the NLE in order to recover each full frame. If the NLE is set to lower field dominant, then any operation that requires full frame processing will cause the NLE to deinterlace the video and effectively discard half of the video data. If the NLE is aware that the video is progressive, it will process the full frame data correctly with no loss of vertical resolution. Richard

December 13th, 2005, 09:02 PM	#387
Alexis Vazquez Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: USA Posts: 188	24p Stuttering issue Any recomendation to avoid stuttering while shooting 24p mode. I don't use this mode too much and last atempt was a nightmare. Thanks Alexis

December 13th, 2005, 09:13 PM	#388
Eric Brown Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 427	I believe there are a few threads on this already. But, tell us what exactly you are attempting to shoot? Is it a fast action sequence with quick pans? The strobing is inherent to 24p. What may be useful, if this is indeed the case, is to set the shutter speed higher at around 1/1200? or so to better capture fast action.

December 14th, 2005, 06:11 AM	#389
A. J. deLange Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: McLean, VA United States Posts: 749	Recomendation: don't use 24p. 24p is to be used (1) when one is transferring to film and (2) when one wishes to simulate the stutter of film.

December 14th, 2005, 07:39 AM	#390
Alexis Vazquez Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: USA Posts: 188	Hi , this won't be for film transfer, just video to DVD. I used 24p just to give it a try and see the video with a more film taste. I was shooting some sport scenes: Karate, Swiming, Jogging. Not much pans but a lot of fast actions like kicking and all that karate things. I knew about the film alike stutter but this was way too much. I don't remember the settings I used but in some ocassions it looks awsome maybe in automatic mode) , so I thought it was more a setting issue. I search yesterday without any luck, today I did found some but more about the pulldown thing and for film transfering wich I'm not planning to do.