Does this mean that you don't use the same camcorder to output to PC? In other words, you use a professional or semipro camera to film and then take the tape out and use a cheap mini-dv camera to output? Is it OK?

Stelios

Professional videographers never use their expensive camera to play back or capture the footage. If money is not an issue but reliability is, then a deck is used. If money is an issue, than a cheap camcorder can be used to capture tapes.

As long as this camcorder works as expected (no dropped frames, no tape messed up mechanically), then there is no difference - capturing video from a miniDV tape is nothing more than file transfer. But of course, if you have to transfer a tape filmed in HDV, you will need an HDV deck or camcorder.

The reason you might want to use a different camera for capture and previews is that connecting and disconnecting the cables a lot from your good camera every time you switch between shooting and editing can wear out the cable connectors and make them loose. That and some cameras (mostly the Canon GL2/XM2) have a fragile tape transport mechanism that lots of capturing can break.

Shayne Weyker
http://weykervideo.com

If you do any extensive logging and capturing multiple clips from tapes, a deck will be MUCH faster.



ash =o)

I can recommmend getting a Sony DSR-11 if you can find the cash. A workhorse of a deck I've found mine to be super reliable and a good investment in time saved now (and likely in the future) for being able log and capture quickly.

Bigger decks are probably a little overkill at the moment in terms of investment unless you see yourself using SD for a fair while still (I do because a lot of the work I am shooting for is going to be highly compressed web based products with little call for high definition masters.)

Does this mean that you don't use the same camcorder to output to PC? In other words, you use a professional or semipro camera to film and then take the tape out and use a cheap mini-dv camera to output? Is it OK?

Stelios

I use a Canon xl-2 to shoot and I capture from and edit to a cheaper mini dv camera. I never playback anything from my XL-2. I haven't had any issues yet and have done a lot of projects this way. Saved me $$$ on buying a $1000 + deck. I plan on buying one eventually, but I'm a firm believer in if it works then don't fix it.

I'm getting ready to sell my DSR-30 DV deck--if anyone is interested, please make me a reasonable offer.

Charles, what condition is your deck and how old is it?

Stelios

Deck is probably 6-7 years old at this point. It's been used for my projects but not daily. Works flawlessly. No dropouts, no problems. It's a tank. Full rack size, very solid. Has integrated jog/shuttle on the control tray and remote. I also have a DSR-20 deck and I don't need both any more. The 20 is more portable so I'm keeping that one.

Once the video is recorded on the MiniDV tape, it doesn't make any difference between taking it out using expensive deck and taking out using a cheap MiniDV camcorder. Because it's already digital binary signal on the tape. Just like you have a file on your expensive computer, then you copy this file to a cheap computer, it's still the same file! That is the advantage of the digital nature.....

Juni, that is only true in theory, not practice. A deck will be faster at getting to in and out points (you can save a lot of time if you log extensively), a deck will have less trouble going from brand to brand of tapes, a deck will have less drop outs, etc. There are many advantages to having a deck...



ash =o)

Ash, you are right in this sense..... But I only edit once the video is dumped on hard drive. I never found any problem, not even dropouts.....

Look around for a used Panasonic AG-DV1000. They're great units, built like a tank, have timecode display up front, and lots of input/output options. Mine was $800 new, but I bet you can find one in good shape for half that.

Only downside is that they are mini-DV only, not the full-size cassettes.

Well, it's not exactly the same because a cheap MiniDV camcorder is not as precise in writing the information on tape as is a professional DVCAM deck. There is something called error correction and concealment that allows for a certain percentage of errors to be written on and read from DV tape before you can actually see an error (like one block when it can't be read is substituted with the copy of a nearby block).

With a cheap drive you get more errors in the first place and, when the tape degrades, you will more quickly experience visible errors because when too much errors are adding up then the correction and concealment mechanisms won't work anymore.

Correct, if you get it problem free to the computer, it is all the same... 1's and 0's... It may take longer and you will run a greater risk of dropouts. A small cheap camera can certainly work but it is not optimum.



ash =o)

I once talked to an electrical engineer who happens to be in this field. He says that DV read and write mechanism is so mature that modern DV cameras hardly make any errors. Even a low end camera can handle data read/write (on digital tape) transfer very well. That was like 2 years ago, I have never confirmed from an official source what he said however. Thru my own testing, i just believe that coz I have never had any visible errors using cheap camcorder to upload or even download, although I do have a deck.....

Juni, some tapes can be problematic and decks are more forgiving, i bet everyone on the forum has a story that could back that up. It is rare to have tape issues in general but a deck just is more robust and reduces problems even more.




ash =o)

Guys, this thread was exactly what I needed to hear. I am going to have to get a cheap miniDV camera to deck for me. When I get a promotion or win the lottery I would love to get the dedicated deck.

Is switching from one brand of camera to another an issue. I shoot on a Sony VX2000 but I am going to deck with a Canon ZR600 (gotta good deal <$100)?

JOE
Switching brands of playback machines is not a problem, it's switching tape formulations that can cause gunk-up. I shoot with an XL2 and use a Sony DSR 11 for playback/capture. No probs.

Having said that - further down the road, there are SOME formats of HDV that are brand specific. For instance Canon's 24f. No deck will play it back. You need a Canon Camera to do this.

More info here as well
 

What is your input on the HVR-M15?

Joseph

The HVR-M15 is less expensive than the M10 or the M25, and it's very good. I work with it all the time, though it doesn't have a small LCD like the other HDV decks from Sony.

heath

I have not had very good luck using a Canon as a deck for tapes shot on a Sony. Often times I would get all kinds of artifacting, plus I believe that this ZR series of Canons has some basic tape drive reliability issues.
Why not just use the VX2000 to dump the tape onto your HD and edit from there? This process works well for me, and may serve you well too.

I want to purchase a Canon H1, but this deck issue is irritating. What is Canon thinking forcing us to use a camera as a deck???

Any clue as to when someone will provide a solution?

Thanks!

AM

The best solution is the fun, excellent, full-1920x1080 (resolution) Canon HV20, which records in 24p and can playback 24f and 30f.

heath

Heath,
If some find the HV20 not robust enough,
couldn't you just get the HVR-M15 and for those occasions where you need to use 24f or 30f, dub from the Canon to the Sony and use the Sony from there on?
Yeah, it creates an extra tape, but the Sony deck should be better than the HV20 as a deck. Faster and more accurate shuttlling, etc.
Have not tried it yet personally, but that is the general direction that I am going in, though I don't shoot much that isn't 60i.

That sounds great, how durable is the tape transport mechanism on this unit?

Will it stand up to the burden?

Thanks!

Alternative to Minidv VCR
 

I have a Canon XL2 & would like to use it only recording, do not wish to play back on it (may be I am wrong for doing so). It may seems ridiculous but do not wish to hamper the head. To transfer the data & rerecording I prefer a VCR, which is exorbitantly priced. Can you people advice me an alternative, like using a low-end minidv cams/3ccd minidvcam or any other solutions are solicited.

Ashok

You answered your own question. A lot of people get a small, cheap, miniDV camcorder for just such a purpose. I don't edit much; right now I have one client I do some editing for, and it's really barely editing at all, and I do my own short films. So a $1500 machine is not practical. I got a Canon ZR500, it's one of the cheapest camcorders they make. I think it was around $250 or so, and it was priced like that new. You can of course, find cheaper on ebay, but those are likely well used. Since the tape heads in the cameras can't possibly be made to stand up to too much abuse, I'd think you would want to look for a new or new-ish one. Anyway, $250 is pretty dirt cheap. Before this I had a ZR80, I think, and that was purchased used for around $200. This is all, of course, assuming you are not doing too much capturing. If you have business and are capturing/shuttling tape on a daily or nearly daily basis, then I think the deck would be worth the investment.

To preempt you and answer another question I've heard a lot, no, it doesn't matter if you are capturing 24p, 30p, or 60i footage. It'll work fine in another camcorder besides the XL2.

Thanks Josh.
 

Build quality & durability of the mechanical as well as the electronics of the player/cam, Sony is better or Panasonic,since both of them make professional ENG cams. The moving parts should be better compare to Canon's.
I'm considering Sony DCR-HC28/HC38/HC48 or Panasonic NV GS60, can you help me to finalise on these selection or suggest some other.
As I told you earlier this is only to use as player & transfer the data to PC, the essential part is IEEE 1394 port for fast transfer.

Ashok

Couldn't tell you. I went as cheap as possible, and I think someone recommended canon, actually. Like I said, I don't use it very often at all, so it should last a while despite a lack of mechanical quality. As for the electronics, as long as you have the firewire port, you're fine. If it plays miniDV tape as doesn't drop a lot of frames on capture, that's really all you need, I think.

So let me get this straight, any DV camcorder with a tape deck and firewire and/or composite ports can be used as a recording deck? The reason I ask is that I wanted to get a portable tape deck, but they're so expensive. So I was wondering, is their any to take out the tape deck, with the firewire/composite ports still attatched, and putting them in some kind of enclosure to make a sony GV-Dxxxx kind of device? If there is a way
The link for the homebuilt camcorder idea: http://www.c-h-a-o-s.com/2007/06/12/...d-a-camcorder/

I have a project coming up where I will need to capture from a bunch of tapes that are going to be givin to me.(many different brands)

I curretntly use a HV20 to capture my A1 footage but do not want run the risk of messing that workflow up by running a bunch of unknown tapes through the HV20.

So I am looking at getting a Sony DSR-11 for this project, here are my questions:

When using the DSR-11 will I get drop outs when using different tapes stock?

Do I need to run a cleaning tape when I switch brands of tape in the deck?

Is there a better suggestion for handling this task?

Thanks in advance,
Adam,

The dsr-11's I've used were freakin workhorses and we couldn't break them if we tried. Just use some common sense. If your brain is telling you to run a cleaning tape, then just do it, it'll take a whole minute of your life but if it makes you feel better then go ahead.
As a side note, was that the golden age of Sony prosumer electronics? The pd150's and dsr-11's just worked dang it. They were well built and lasted forever. At least the ones I worked with anyway. Now stuff just seems cheaper. Sorry to get sidetracked.

Has anybody used the JVC SR-DVM600? or know anything about it.

Thanks,
Adam

Ethan,

You are SPOT ON. I have a PD-150 and a DSR-11 deck. Bought them both 5 years ago....both still work like they are brand new. They are both absolute WORKHORSES and I still use them both all the time. Shot a 2 hour meeting last night for the PBS station with my PD-150 and am working on capturing it now with my DSR-11. They still get a ton of use and I haven't had a SINGLE problem with either one of them. I sure do wish all the new gear was made like this.

We have a Canon XH A1 that we use primarily. If we wanted to shoot HDV could we buy a Canon HV 30 and use that to dump the video to computer?

I've even heard that some folks use one to take video with when its not being used as a deck - fancy that!

Yes, for sure, if you are shooting 1080i.
I don't know if the HV20/30 understands Canons other 24p footage format.

yes you can use it to capture progressive formats, I just captured some footage on my hv30 that was recorded on an A1 as 24p, it is captured as the hdv1080 24p format.