I use it when logging and capturing. I shoot commercials so I only capture the good takes (I never just capture the whole tape) so I need to hear it to know if it's a good take. For some reason (is it this way w/ everyone?) FCP doesn't let me monitor the audio through the computer when I'm logging. I know FCP doesn't give you audio when capturing, but does it usually when logging?

I hate to do this but any of you guys that have and XL2 and wouldn't mind checking out another post of mine, I would appreciate it. It is in the Canon XL-2 watchdog forum. So far I am having a lot of lookers but no one offering any response.

I just use a cheap mini dv camera that I keep at my computer to transfer video to my computer. I still go thru firewire but its always there and my main camera doesn't get the wear and tear.

i agree, a cheap minidv camera with a firewire port is the way to go, you can get 'em for less than $300 these days.

Another user here who uses a cheap camera as a deck...
But I'm looking for a large format tape player too.

What do you all think about the new JVC deck - BR-HD50

Large format, downconverts and HDV all in one?
Multi format HDMI and RS422.

Cost: Only 50% more than a DSR-11.

Anyone have any opinions on it?
Does it handle HDV 1080i in and out?

Using a cheap dv camera is definitely a cheaper option, but might not last as long, depensing on how much you use it. Also, be sure you get a camera that outputs the same audio rate that you record on (if you record 16 bit 48k, some cheaper models won't have that audio rate as an option).

Good advice from everyone here.

The DSR-11 is my recommendation as it is rock solid with FCP and has a robust transport.

I would not recommend a deck for anyone who is not capturing more than a few hours per week. Go with an inexpensive camera. You can always use that second camera to record B-roll or audio in a pinch.

One of the biggest benefits of a deck is how fast it rewinds and fast forwards. You can get around on a tape much, much quicker with a deck.

Now if you're doing more that a few hours of capture/playback per week, also look at the DSR-25. It offers a few things overs the DSR-11. Timecode display on the front readout. VU Meters and a tiny LCD preview monitor.

If you're doing a lot of analog, I love the fact that you can use the 184minute DVcam tapes to copy to. This is huge for archiving your old tapes. Since you can record in either DV or DVcam mode, you can actually get 4.5 hours out of a 3 hour(184minute) tape.

The JVC models starting with "B" in the name are professional and work great with FCP. I would not recommend any of the consumer models as too many people have had "issues." The Panasonics seem to work great too. But, in my opinion, I would always go with the Sony based on owning and using them as well as hearing others comments.

Hope this helps,

It is a preference. I am currently in FCP 5, but I know it is in HD, too. On FCP 5, in the clip settings tab there is a checkbox to monitor the audio. In HD, I think it is in one of the preference panes. I'll try to get on a copy of HD to check which one, but it is definitely possible to monitor the audio while logging. In fact, when I was still using HD, I had a custom capture preset that I called "NTSC Audio off" that would mute the audio on capture (since I wanted it on for logging).

To monitor audio through the computer while logging in 4.5, open your capture preset, click the "Advanced" button under QuickTime Audio Settings and turn the speaker on. I learned this in 3, so I'm sure it works there as well.

What are the thoughts on getting a Firestore instead of a deck and use tapes as an archive? I know there is a forum for firestore but I figured I could ask you guys who have decks as opposed to those who will surely say Firestore is the way to go.

Firestore is good as is the nNovia version. nNovia has analog inputs.

Another option might be a notebook with big clean hard drive and a copy of Serious Magic DVRack. It will give you Waveform monitoring from your firewire (a true representation of your digital signal levels) and it is a capture program with monitoring.

I have, use and really like the DSR-11 but would love to get a DSR-20 or DSR-25.

A last option for you is to look for a gently used Sony DSR-20. The DSR-20 was killed off in favor of the DSR-25 but the older 20 has a character output that will allow you to make TC window dubs for producers to take home and have the Time Code on their VHS tape.

This is a great way to pre-edit. Give the producer/director a copy of the raw tapes with a TC window. They can choose their cuts at home and simply bring you a shot list. Saves you from shuttleing through 10 tapes with them breathing down your neck.

Just ideas,

Sean McHenry

ahh, thanks! I never played around with the preset "edit" function. Now I don't have to bother with the headphones.

It is at this point in the deliberations that I usually mention the alternative of a JVC DV/S-VHS combination VCR.
My HR-DVS3U is still working without fault, has a fine relationship with my computer and cost only $700. Their "pro" version of this model will play back DVCAM and is priced a few hundred dollars more. If you only need to play DV recordings into a computer, its limitations in editing features shouldn't be of much concern. I got this deck just as a standby for my more advanced Sony DV VCR, but it's so much easier to use for simple playback and recording, that the Sony just sits there, neglected.

using low-end miniDV cam as a deck
 

I just called up B&H to buy a JVC GR-270 ($260) to use as a cheap deck. I told the salesman about what I intended to use the deck for. He said that I'd have problems using this JVC cheapo cam with video shot on another brand's camera, a Canon XL1s for example. Something about tracking errors.

Does anyone have an experience with this? Is this a real concern or a way to sell expensive decks?

Thanks.

This is a case of a sales technique called "broad generalization" and "sweeping sterotypes" that are ancdotal at best and certainly not based upon any facts.

He should be embarrassed for making such incorrect statements. Especially when representing one of the industry's best known and respected badges for top notch sales and service.

The chap you were speaking to has just simply never worked with dv. A camera when equipped with firewire will playback a dv25 file into a pc. Period. That's it's job.

6 years and counting for my el cheapo cam being used as a deck...

I agree - nothing more to say really :)

Thanks, guys.

I use the JVC at work too, as well as a Sony Video Walkman. Both are great choices.

Ummm - well maybe.

I don't know the JVC product line at all but I do know digital tape drives from 9 years in the industry. Think of it as the industrial cousin of DV - tens of Terabytes of data being read and written every night Vs: tens of Gigabytes a couple of times a week in the DV world.

It is very possible to have tracking errors that would make a tape unreadable between one device writing a tape and another device reading the tape (notice I didn't say likely, I said possible).

Tracking errors occur when the device reading the tape can't track the digital data written to the tape. This could be due to a problem with the device that wrote it (say it wrote it at the extreme edge of the legal data area and/or it was writing a weak signal to the tape), it could be a problem with the tape, or it could be a problem with the reading device, or it could be a stack-up combination problem. Say a marginal device writing and a margina device reading - normally neither has a problem but if you use them both in the same project your world is going to end.

In any event tracking errors can and do happen. I have seen cases where people wrote tapes that could *only* be read by the device that wrote them due to the particular head alignment issues with that device. Try to read the tape anywhere else and it was a total failure, mount the tape back in the device that wrote it and everything worked great.

Within the tape industry this characteristic is called "interchangability" - meaning the ability to write the tape in one device and read it in another. Interchangability is affected by both the tape standard (how everybody agrees the data will actually be physically written to tape - pitch, density, etc) and the hardware that each manufacturer builds. Within the video industry things generally seem to have pretty good interchangability.

Where might you see problems? Well if you buy the cheapest equipment is a likely place to start. This follows if you realize that the cheapest equipment also probably has the loosest tolerences (cheaper to manufacture), least sophisticated electronics (to follow the wandering data tracks across the tape), etc.

Does this mean you are *likely* to have problems - NO! Many people use low end cameras as capture decks for years with no problems. Was the sales guy from B&H telling you the truth - yes. Was he telling you the whole truth? Well, he *IS* a salesman...

:-)

Well, the B&H salesman is kind of right, though I don't know how widespread the problem is. There can definitely be tracking problems when playing tapes shot with older Canon camcorders in decks or camcorders from other brands.

Our Kino group has monthly short film screenings in Montreal, and once in a while we get glitches when playing a DV tape in the Sony deck. The technician then asks "Was it shot on a Canon?" and the answer is invariably yes. Switching the tape to a Canon camcorder resolves the issue. Other Kino cells are also aware of the issue, so I doubt this is anecdotic.

Not all tapes shot on Canon camcorders are problematic, and I believe this issue exists only with some older Canon models. My tapes shot on a GL2 play without a glitch, and I believe others using a GL2 or an XL2 never had any problems either.

I you have an older Canon model, then I suggest you try to play one of your tapes in that camcorder before buying.

Well there's the engineering perspective for you to chew on.

Buy the cheap deck. If a manufacturer can't deliver the basic goods, then they simply won't put it on the shelf.

We all have had drop outs from time to time on the most expensive gear. That's life.

If a brand new camcorder can't play a tape from day 1 then it is not a camcorder. It is a lemon.

Was the sales guy telling the truth? No! He's guilty of spouting unsubstantiated bunk. Avoid!

Umm - no. Strictly speaking he *was* telling the truth. If you use cheap equipment from different manufacturers to write and read tapes you are *far* more likely to have tracking problems.

Would it influence me personally to change my purchase decision on a cheap camcorder vs. buying a deck? Not a bit, it's not a big issue - I would confidently buy the cheap camcorder; if it didn't read my tapes I'd return it.

It's kinda like buying the cheapest no-name DVD writer from Costco and then finding out that it writes DVDs that can't be read in all players - no big surprise there - you get what you pay for. It will work almost all of the time, in almost all configurations. If that's good enough (and it is for most of us), then have at it.

But it isn't unsubstantiated bunk (although he is using it to his advantage to help up-sell, but he's a sales guy, that's his job)

Cheers!

Give it a try (rent)
 

Rent or borrow a working unit and give it a try. That's always been my logic.

I have a Canon XL1s, and shot previously with XL1's, GL1's, and some rented ZR's. No big deal, they all playback tapes from one another, and I've yet to encounter issues with tapes not being able to playback from a local shop whom uses both JVC and Sony decks.

B&H should have a return policy. You can take advantage of that.

Pete

i use a canon zr100 as my cheap deck. i tried a panasonic cheapo and a jvc cheapo and had serious capture problems with both before i settled on the zr100 which does an excellent job.

i have no science to back this up, only anecdotal experience. but the other two really really cheap cams were sub-par. don't remember the model numbers.

As a previous sales guy with a reputable company, at least the sales guys I worked with were, he may actually know something about that particular camera that isn't general knowledge. I know a lot about a few products and I told people which products to stay away from. One quick example was the first run of the JVC miniDV decks they put out. It had a few major issues with dropouts. Did JVC ever admit to this issue? Nope. They did however come out with an "a" revision that cured the issue. Now the deck is OK. As a conscientious sales guy I did try to protect my people from buying things I knew they would blame me for selling to them later.

JVC isn't the only one. I know of issues with Sony and Panasonic pro gear too.

On the other hand, some sales guys are there for the up-sell. I didn't do that. I had the best interests of my friends and customers at heart. I suppose that's why I am back in Engineering again.

Anyway, you should still be careful using a cheap anything for real work. If it's a hobby, go for it. If you are making money from this venture, buy a Sony DSR-11 or DSR-25. Great decks, can do full sized DV, miniDV and DVCam. Or go for the Panasonic or JVC DV decks. (No DVCam record) and make money for years without worry.

Sean McHenry

Hii
 

My cheap JVC miniDV cam won't play miniDV tapes from a Sony TRV or a Sony Z1.
I just tried it and the JVC doesn't pick up the tape information.

Jimi

hii
 

I got it to work. I put a new tape in the JVC. Then i recorded a bit. Played back the tape (it did ok).
From there it played back all the tapes I had.
Jimi

I love my DSR-11. It is a great workhorse for mini-DV or DVCam capture in either NTSC or PAL. I use it to capture many mini-DV tapes each week, and also to back up my footage to mini-DV tapes and also to make DVCam masters on 3 hr. DVCam tapes for my movies. It can also be used for analog video pass through and I also use it to pass along the singal from the window of my editing app to the tv I use as a monitor.

I throw in another vote for the DSR-11. Even better, but discontinued, the DSR-20. It had meters on the front. Actual timecode display is a great thing on the front of ther deck. I really miss that, and the character or moniotr outpu. You could do TC window dubs to VHS for producers to pre-edit with.

Sean

Hey, it just needed some encouragement! :)

For what it's worth, I have used a cheapo (Canon old Elura) as a deck and it's fine. The only thing was it doesn't read tapes recorded in DV-CAM (I had to borrow a Sony TRV)...obviously it's not deigned to do that. Stephen may want to move up one model or two up the food chain simply for quality/reliability issues and not get the cheeziest-built loss-leader they make. if I were using the deck everyday, I'd want at least a DSR-11. But it's still nice having an "expendable" piece to knockaround that I wouldn't cry if someting happened to it.

Using the Canon ZR-200 as a capture/ playback deck
 

Hi,

I own the XL2 and I was wondering if I played back video I shot on the XL2 with a Canon ZR200 miniDV camcorder, will it play smoothly and without any dropouts or any other glitches?

I remember when I was in college and I had shot a Music Video using a Sony camcorder. I can't remember the model name, but it was one of those HUGE cameras that you see news broadcasters using. It was something along the lines of DSR250 I do believe that was the name. Yes, yes it was that camcorder. I just did a search on B&H photo.

It's this one:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

Anyway, when I shot the music video using that sony camcorder, I tried capturing the footage with my brother in laws Canon ZR-60 (I do believe they changed the numbers to 100-400, because I can clearly recall my old camcorder only having 2 digits).

Anyway, when I tried capturing that footage, I would get dropouts (if that's the proper term). The video would move slow, desycned audio and just didn't playback right.

It mainly just playedback and captured really slow. The video jumped around too.

My main question is, has anyone tried capturing video shot on an XL2 with the ZR-200? It's a cheap camera and I'd like to buy it as a capture deck, but I want to be assured that I wont get the same problems.

Thank you in advance.

-Roger

I think that you will find that the ZR-200 will work fine.

From what I have read, some lower end cameras do not handle all of the audio that the XL2 can provide, but the ZR-200 should not have this problem.

What you are wanting to do is fairly common. Those who can afford a dedicated deck may perfer the more expensive option.

You should not experience a loss of quality by using the ZR-200 as a capture deck, as long as you are using firewire as your input to your capture program.

I would, however, never record in LP mode. If you do, you may have to capture using the original camera that recorded it.

Mini DV Deck
 

Can anyone here in the editing crew point me in the right direction in acquiring a mini DV deck? I understand that digitizing to the computer from my camcorder on a regular basis puts exccesive wear on the transport head of the camcorder.

I've heard of using a cheapy mini Dv camcorder with the firewire interface as one solution.

What about just having a plain min Dv deck? What outfits offer this unit? Any ideas or experience with models, brands, pricing, etc.

Any input from the forum would be most helpful in my search.

Regards,

John

Mini Divi Decks = $$$$$$
 

Mini Dv decks are more expensive than most cheap DV cameras. I have been using a cheap WD 250 Sharp for 3 years to capture from my VX 2000, and have had no problems. All the cheap camera has to do is transfer the 1's and 0's. And you might have a good little family camera to boot...

Use cheaper camera
 

Thanks Chris, Yes I did notice that the decks were very expensive. Okay, I'll just search for a handy camera for the transfer to my pc. I appreciate your input.

I used a cheaper camera as a deck for quite a while with no problems. I just recently bit the bullet and purchased the Sony DSR-11. If you go through a bunch of tapes, it makes things so much easier. Yes, it's expensive compared to camcorders, but the fast rw/ff times, plus the ability to use full size DV and DVCAM tapes are a definite plus. I'm able to use 184 min DVCAM to do big project archiving if needed.

If you only use a few tapes a week, a camcorder should be fine. But if you do any type of volume, a deck is the way to go (IMO).

k, this is gonna be a REAL Dumb question. If the camera (Camera A) I am using to capture onto my computer is inferior to the camera (Camera B) I am shooting with, Am I going to be getting any loss of quality when it arrives in my computer?

No loss at all, it is just reading 1s & 0s.

Mike

In theory, no. The recording is already done, all you are doing is transferring the data. However, there may be other issues, as some folk have had issues playing tapes in other cameras.

If you're only using minidv tapes, Sony's GV-D1000 is a nice little portable unit.