24p questions

Matthew DeJesus · November 10th, 2003, 10:00 AM

Believe it or not, you can!! I recently filmed an event with mixes of 60i and 24p. I own Final Cut Pro 4 but do not feel confident just yet to use it full time so I felt OK just using iMovie being that I have tons of plug-ins. I wasn't sure what it would do during import once I reached the 24p portions of the tape but sure enough, they imported!! Not believing I saw what I just saw, after importing was complete, I went back to the scenes filmed in 24p and was able to work with them...in iMovie!!!

I can't believe it but it's true. Note: I am running the latest version of iMovie on Mac OS 10.2.5

James Gleason · November 10th, 2003, 10:25 AM

Not to pop your bubble, but of course you can use iMovie to edit 60i and 24p. The fact is, once your capture is on tape it is all 60i. There is no 24p direct to tape format available. All miniDV tape results in 60i format. That's the beauty of the Panny, it takes 24p and lays it down as 60i. It adds extra frames and intermediate frames to achieve 60i. You do have to have FCP or another similar application to remove the extra frames-iMovie can't do that.
You can read more about this at this great website: http://www.adamwilt.com/24p

Dale Nicholson · November 14th, 2003, 06:42 AM

Just purely from a picture quality point-of-view, will 24p or 24p advanced give the best quality--outputing to dvd and shown on high quality dvd player/TV monitor? I know about which one to use if outputing to film, but I'm just asking about picture quality/resolution; in a side by side comparison on your favorite monitor, would 24p or 24pa be the winner?

Barry Green · November 14th, 2003, 12:37 PM

Depends on how you edit it. If you edit it in a 60i stream, then they will give identical results (assuming all other settings were identical), except for the cadence of motion -- 24P will be a little smoother motion than 24PA.

If you're editing in a 24P timeline but creating VHS output, or a 60i DVD, they'll again yield identical results. Both systems will be undergoing a "generation loss" to introduce 3:2 pulldown on output.

If you're editing in a 24P timeline for creating a 24P DVD, then 24PA will have a slightly better picture. 24P mode has to undergo a process of splitting and recombining fields, which will cause a recompression/generation loss, whereas 24PA can have its frames just copied over, no generation loss. So for true 24P output, 24PA is better.

Chris Mueller · November 16th, 2003, 03:03 PM

Can one view a 24p DVD on any DVD player?

November 16th, 2003, 05:15 PM

If you use a +DVD as this plays on more DVD players than a -DVD which is on the baseline system of Apples Computers

Boyd Ostroff · November 16th, 2003, 05:41 PM

Just curious because I recently got a standalone DVD recorder.... if the goal is to make the highest quality DVD wouldn't you be better off going with 30p and playing on a progressive scan DVD player connected via component video? I don't have a DVX100, but I deinterlace footage shot with my Sony and it looks remarkable as 480p on a widescreen LCD monitor fed by a progressive scan DVD player. Now my DVD player also does "reverse 3:2 pulldown" and says it will auto-detect "film based software". Would it automatically detect this with 24p video from the DVX100, or is there some sort of flag that must be set when burning the DVD? And even so, would it look as good as 30p?

Chris Mueller · November 16th, 2003, 07:18 PM

AH! That's what i meant. Does the target DVD player have to have such "reverse 3:2 pulldown" to be able to view the 24p dvd?

November 16th, 2003, 08:41 PM

Nope

Ong Wan Shu · November 17th, 2003, 05:51 AM

hi all,

Next week i am shooting my short film, somehow, unfortunately i am still sticking on the idea to "Shoot in best possible format" for the raw footage...which is why I am thinking of shooting in 24p Advance even though at this point of time, there isn't any signs that anyone is gonna give me the big check for film transfer yet.

Questions

1) What are all the hardware, software (must be FCP4? what abt premiere?), anything that I ever need to edit 24p Advance to convert to film, DVD, video, vcd?

2) Shooting in 24p Advance and then output to video/vcd can't be that bad? Reading the resource page on how the drop frames work, it just means editing with more software and hardware BUT getting the same results if i shot in 24p standard in the first place? I kinda prefer this coz i still have the option that I will have the best "film look" if i ever managed to con someone to sponsor the film transfer.

3) From the resource page, it seems like shooting on 24p standard is gonna lose out a lot of frames, but how good or bad is it? Will there be so many frame loss that the audio get faster than the image?

4) Shooting in 24p standard, editing in Premiere 6 or FCP 3, do i just need to edit it normally or i HAVE TO edit in 24p to get the film look?

Thanks a million!!!

Barry Green · November 17th, 2003, 02:09 PM

There's a link at the top of the forum to the Sonic Foundry 24P whitepaper, you should read it as it will answer many of your questions.

For native 24P editing, you can choose from FCP4, Avid XPress Pro, Vegas 4.0 or Blade 2.2.

Premiere or FCP3 can only edit 60i material, so you wouldn't be editing in the native 24P timeline but you would still retain all the filmlook of the 24P frames.

24P Standard doesn't lose any frames, I don't know what that reference is to. 24P Standard looks similar to film after it's been transferred to video -- all the information is there, nothing's lost.

Russell Fray · November 19th, 2003, 11:55 AM

VEGAS works well with 24PA.

Greg Matty · November 19th, 2003, 01:28 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ong Wan Shu : Is DV filmmaker available to PC or is it only for mac?

Also,if i shoot at 24p standard,and i edit it normally(not editing in 24p), will the product aredly look like film?

Thanks!! -->>>

Ong,

The only real problem with 30P is that you won't be able to get it transferred to film. If you have no intentions of getting your project shown in that manner, then 30P may be a good solution. You can edit it as normal and there is no concern about pulldown. I would say to shoot both ways and see which you like better.

Another advantage to 24P is quicker render times. WIth only 24 frames per second instead of 30, your render times should drop by about 20%. That is pretty minor to most people but you can also fit more video onto a DVD or encode the same amount of video at a higher encoding rate.

Good luck.

Greg Matty

Matthew de Jongh · November 20th, 2003, 08:51 PM

hello.

i am getting pretty close to ordering a dvx-100 and i have a stupid question about 24p,

i have read a ton of stuff on here and on dvxuser.com about 24p but i can't find a straightforward explanation of how to get the footage into premiere pro with the whole dropframe issue?

do i have to run a utility before i bring it into premiere? can i just use premiere and set it for 24? or 23.9? frames?

thanks for helping solve this one last big question

matthew

Nick Medrano · November 22nd, 2003, 01:24 PM

YOu only need to be worried about this stuff if you intend to have your final product go out to film. If not, then you don't have to worry about a thing. Just use Premiere Pro and DVX100 the same way you would with any other camera.

November 10th, 2003, 10:00 AM	#346
Matthew DeJesus Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 26	Editing 24p using iMovie Believe it or not, you can!! I recently filmed an event with mixes of 60i and 24p. I own Final Cut Pro 4 but do not feel confident just yet to use it full time so I felt OK just using iMovie being that I have tons of plug-ins. I wasn't sure what it would do during import once I reached the 24p portions of the tape but sure enough, they imported!! Not believing I saw what I just saw, after importing was complete, I went back to the scenes filmed in 24p and was able to work with them...in iMovie!!! I can't believe it but it's true. Note: I am running the latest version of iMovie on Mac OS 10.2.5

November 10th, 2003, 10:25 AM	#347
James Gleason Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hillsboro, OR Posts: 39	Editing 24p using iMovie Not to pop your bubble, but of course you can use iMovie to edit 60i and 24p. The fact is, once your capture is on tape it is all 60i. There is no 24p direct to tape format available. All miniDV tape results in 60i format. That's the beauty of the Panny, it takes 24p and lays it down as 60i. It adds extra frames and intermediate frames to achieve 60i. You do have to have FCP or another similar application to remove the extra frames-iMovie can't do that. You can read more about this at this great website: http://www.adamwilt.com/24p

November 14th, 2003, 06:42 AM	#348
Dale Nicholson Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 133	24p or 24pa: picture quality Just purely from a picture quality point-of-view, will 24p or 24p advanced give the best quality--outputing to dvd and shown on high quality dvd player/TV monitor? I know about which one to use if outputing to film, but I'm just asking about picture quality/resolution; in a side by side comparison on your favorite monitor, would 24p or 24pa be the winner?

November 17th, 2003, 05:51 AM	#355
Ong Wan Shu Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 74	what is needed to edit 24p ADVANCE hi all, Next week i am shooting my short film, somehow, unfortunately i am still sticking on the idea to "Shoot in best possible format" for the raw footage...which is why I am thinking of shooting in 24p Advance even though at this point of time, there isn't any signs that anyone is gonna give me the big check for film transfer yet. Questions 1) What are all the hardware, software (must be FCP4? what abt premiere?), anything that I ever need to edit 24p Advance to convert to film, DVD, video, vcd? 2) Shooting in 24p Advance and then output to video/vcd can't be that bad? Reading the resource page on how the drop frames work, it just means editing with more software and hardware BUT getting the same results if i shot in 24p standard in the first place? I kinda prefer this coz i still have the option that I will have the best "film look" if i ever managed to con someone to sponsor the film transfer. 3) From the resource page, it seems like shooting on 24p standard is gonna lose out a lot of frames, but how good or bad is it? Will there be so many frame loss that the audio get faster than the image? 4) Shooting in 24p standard, editing in Premiere 6 or FCP 3, do i just need to edit it normally or i HAVE TO edit in 24p to get the film look? Thanks a million!!!

November 20th, 2003, 08:51 PM	#359
Matthew de Jongh Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: sounthern maine Posts: 344	premiere pro - 24p and dvx-100 ?? hello. i am getting pretty close to ordering a dvx-100 and i have a stupid question about 24p, i have read a ton of stuff on here and on dvxuser.com about 24p but i can't find a straightforward explanation of how to get the footage into premiere pro with the whole dropframe issue? do i have to run a utility before i bring it into premiere? can i just use premiere and set it for 24? or 23.9? frames? thanks for helping solve this one last big question matthew

November 14th, 2003, 12:37 PM	#349
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Depends on how you edit it. If you edit it in a 60i stream, then they will give identical results (assuming all other settings were identical), except for the cadence of motion -- 24P will be a little smoother motion than 24PA. If you're editing in a 24P timeline but creating VHS output, or a 60i DVD, they'll again yield identical results. Both systems will be undergoing a "generation loss" to introduce 3:2 pulldown on output. If you're editing in a 24P timeline for creating a 24P DVD, then 24PA will have a slightly better picture. 24P mode has to undergo a process of splitting and recombining fields, which will cause a recompression/generation loss, whereas 24PA can have its frames just copied over, no generation loss. So for true 24P output, 24PA is better.

November 16th, 2003, 03:03 PM	#350
Chris Mueller Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 49	Can one view a 24p DVD on any DVD player?

November 16th, 2003, 05:15 PM	#351
Guest Posts: n/a	If you use a +DVD as this plays on more DVD players than a -DVD which is on the baseline system of Apples Computers

November 16th, 2003, 05:41 PM	#352
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,788	Just curious because I recently got a standalone DVD recorder.... if the goal is to make the highest quality DVD wouldn't you be better off going with 30p and playing on a progressive scan DVD player connected via component video? I don't have a DVX100, but I deinterlace footage shot with my Sony and it looks remarkable as 480p on a widescreen LCD monitor fed by a progressive scan DVD player. Now my DVD player also does "reverse 3:2 pulldown" and says it will auto-detect "film based software". Would it automatically detect this with 24p video from the DVX100, or is there some sort of flag that must be set when burning the DVD? And even so, would it look as good as 30p?

November 16th, 2003, 07:18 PM	#353
Chris Mueller Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 49	AH! That's what i meant. Does the target DVD player have to have such "reverse 3:2 pulldown" to be able to view the 24p dvd?

November 17th, 2003, 02:09 PM	#356
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	There's a link at the top of the forum to the Sonic Foundry 24P whitepaper, you should read it as it will answer many of your questions. For native 24P editing, you can choose from FCP4, Avid XPress Pro, Vegas 4.0 or Blade 2.2. Premiere or FCP3 can only edit 60i material, so you wouldn't be editing in the native 24P timeline but you would still retain all the filmlook of the 24P frames. 24P Standard doesn't lose any frames, I don't know what that reference is to. 24P Standard looks similar to film after it's been transferred to video -- all the information is there, nothing's lost.

November 19th, 2003, 11:55 AM	#357
Russell Fray Tourist Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Beverly Hills, CA Posts: 2	VEGAS works well with 24PA.

November 19th, 2003, 01:28 PM	#358
Greg Matty Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 177	<<<-- Originally posted by Ong Wan Shu : Is DV filmmaker available to PC or is it only for mac? Also,if i shoot at 24p standard,and i edit it normally(not editing in 24p), will the product aredly look like film? Thanks!! -->>> Ong, The only real problem with 30P is that you won't be able to get it transferred to film. If you have no intentions of getting your project shown in that manner, then 30P may be a good solution. You can edit it as normal and there is no concern about pulldown. I would say to shoot both ways and see which you like better. Another advantage to 24P is quicker render times. WIth only 24 frames per second instead of 30, your render times should drop by about 20%. That is pretty minor to most people but you can also fit more video onto a DVD or encode the same amount of video at a higher encoding rate. Good luck. Greg Matty

November 22nd, 2003, 01:24 PM	#360
Nick Medrano Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 331	YOu only need to be worried about this stuff if you intend to have your final product go out to film. If not, then you don't have to worry about a thing. Just use Premiere Pro and DVX100 the same way you would with any other camera.