Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

And yet they recorded it to an external recorder to get 10-bit 4:2:2 ProRes files.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Cliff you make good points in regards to the sensor scenario you laid out. I could see Sony stipulating that Panny could not offer internal 422 in a camera (ux180) that would directly compete against their z150. I might not agree or like theses decisions but its nice to understand the motivations .

I also agree people get attached to their equipment and respond emotional defending their camera. I treat the camera as a tool and don't define myself by it. I currently own a Nikon, JVC, Canon, Panasonic and Sony cameras. I'll buy whatever is the best tool at that time regardless of the make.

Ron despite your creative approaches dslr is designed to take pictures first with the added ability to film video. Whether you can find ways around the obstacles doesn't change the fact that they will never replace eng cameras and that's ok.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

They're not obstacles if you're using the camera in such a way that the form factor favours the DLSR. Wedding work I found when trying out the AF101A years back was a nightmare and I quickly went back to the DSLR. Why? Because that form factor worked best for that scenario. Not suggesting the standard ENG camera has no place because of course they do. However even on larger productions, their kit will include GoPros, DSLR's and larger camera, each employed where they are best utilised. I'd happily use what some would deem a 'proper video camera' in jobs where such a camera would better serve me than a DSLR.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Hello, I'm a Panasonic Fan and I'm not pissed or even remotely bothered who makes the sensor; as long as it works well. I think those who are bothered care more about camera tech than they do about filming. Same sort of people who feel the GH5 is a Sony/Canon killer or the end of Proper Video Cameras and all such Bullshit the forums have alas given a home to.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

The GH5 announcement is certainly reverberating around our world. I, for one, am delighted and excited, and not entirely surprised. I am sorely tempted to jump in and pre-order but no, not today at least.

This announcement has focused attention on Sony, at least in this thread, and what this might mean to us Sony fans. Given my history in a huge multi-national corporation I tend to think about long term strategic planning, the business case and profitability and that's my bias.

Here is a link I found interesting. It is a report on the Corporate Strategy Meeting - June 29, 2016. Makes interesting reading. The number of times he says 'I believe' one might conclude it was a religious meeting and of course in some respects it is. Cybershot gets one mention would you believe as does Handycam.

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/strategy/

While the numbers are perhaps credible the 'I believe' content I read with a large grain of salt.

On second thoughts maybe I might just go ahead and pre-order a GH5 :-)

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

I had a fantastic discussion with two guys at NAB. They work for another large CMOS image sensor maker. One is a sensor engineer and the other is an engineer for the fabrication equipment used to make sensors.

They both told me that Sony is EXTREMLY difficult to work with and buy from. They told me that Sony will ask questions about a thousand different aspects of how you will buy their sensor and implement it....down to the minute technical details!

Then once they are satisfied with your implementation, they turn around and place all of your specs into the contract of sale so you cant change your mind at a later date with a firmware upgrade. Sony has their customers locked down hard.

I dont blame Sony. These are their hard earned pattents and expensive R&D work. They protect their business and their survival very closely.

Which is why the GH5 is so shocking! Is Panny paying an exceptionally high price to Sony for this tech?

Who knows? (Maybe 10 people on the planet!)

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Really who cares? I don't have shares in Panasonic or Sony, so as long as Panasonic continue to produce a tool I can use, their Business Practises as long as they're legal are of little interest to me. This stuff only matters to those with too much time of their hands to ponder such questions.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Normally I don't care but I don't like the idea of one manufacturer dictating terms to another its one step closer to colluding together to fix prices. I like it when companies are competitors not involved in cozy relationships.

Omg I said "obstacles" and said dslrs are designed for photography! Outrageous! I also think Sony isn't closing it's doors after the release of the GH5.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

LUMIX GH5 - Beyond the Grid - Neumann Films




GH5 Firmware Upgrade Path:

4:2:2 10bit – Available April, 2017

6K/24p Anamorphic Video Mode (4:3) – Available Summer, 2017

(200 Mbps) FHD 4:2:2 10bit ALL-Intra – Available Summer, 2017

(400Mbps) 4K 4:2:2 10bit ALL-Intra – Available, Summer 2017

V-Log Color Profile – Available at launch, Cost: $100

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

And in Cinema, there is often a Director of the Photography, so I excuse your confusion of where the line occurs between cinematography and photography.

That is hardy a revelation. Anyone who has seen the past few years new releases and isn't an idiot can anticipate that Sony will respond to the GH5 just as they did with the GH4. Even though I buy Panasonic, I welcome Sony innovation. How good would the GH5 have been without it. :)

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Steve I'm not confused. I know that a DSLR was designed for photography not to film video. You can dance around that fact and try to re-frame the conversation all you like. But I get it people like to argue here so keep refuting the obvious if you must.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Wow Steve, you not only not care about the politics of the camera business, you are actually aggressively adamant about not caring about it. hahaha

Ok, that's cool. Nobody has to care about the business side of cameras. I love everything about cameras and photography and videography,...including the business and industry aspect of them too!

C'mon Steve, is it that "really" that horrible to "ponder such questions"? ;-)

On Sony's future against the GH5. If the past is any indicator, when the GH4 came out, at NAB Sony fired back with the original A7s and they gave 4k to it's HDMI output but not it's internal CODEC. With only a 4k HDMI, that camera took the industry by storm and was a certified hit for Sony. They fought Panasonic's GH4 with a much larger Full Frame camera that could see ghosts and faint spirits in the middle of the night. Both, the A7s and the GH4 did very well for both companies even though the A7s was crippled by it's internal 1080 CODEC.

They might do this all over again. Maybe they will position an new A7-III, not with a 4:2:2 10 CODEC. Instead buy giving it's HDMI 4:2:2 10bit for external recording. again with a crazy sensor that has a signal to noise ratio that is ever higher than today's A7S-II.

This might be a way that Sony can compete (somewhat) with a GH5 without hurting their FS5 or FS7 sales.

I don't know but Sony's answer is going to be very interesting. (but not for Steve) Sony still has time to announce what they are building before the GH5 hits the streets. I'm guessing NAB 2017? (where the original A7s was launched) I have a GH5 on pre-order now but I'd cancel it if Sony announces a solid move against the GH5.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Imagine how stupid I feel having to tell people at weddings over and over again that I shoot video when they ask me to take their picture. :)

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Yes, been there, done that many times, Noa. I can understand it when they ask when I'm shooting with the GH4, but they even ask when I'm shooting with the LS300 and the Sony EX1R before that. Neither of those cameras remotely resemble a DSLR, but they ask anyway.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Oh I'm not refuting the obvious by any means. Still as someone who began filming Weddings with handycams, oddly enough, despite such cameras being designed for video only, I was enjoying remarkably less functionality than my current crop of DSLRs designed for photo taking.

Still the fact that the GH5 isn't designed for video taking is a major plus as it gets certain features that something like the Sony FS5 or Canon C100 lack. Despite both costing a great deal more. It's a funny old World with modern technology.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

I actually don't mind it happens all the time. I shot video of them posing then snap a shot. In editing I use a flash effect with the freeze frame. I like to mix in a few fun points where people interact with me. Sometimes you can capture video of people who are unaware you're filming them because they think you're taking pictures.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

I frequent forums on DpReview from time to time, where discussions can be more about how well a camera sells and why it was introduced and what it means for the company making it, rather than how well that camera works for the individual owning it. When brand loyalty leads to arguments over which camera is best by virtue of how well it sells, or want features not because they need them, but because having them gives their purchase bragging rights over others, it ends up feeling more fan boy talk than practical day to day use.

What makes you think I wouldn't be interested in Sony's answer to the GH5. There's a difference between interest in where Panasonic gets their tech from and how they run their business and interest in seeing the specs of a new camera produced by Sony. Panasonic announce a new camera with a tonne of interesting features and suddenly discussion shifts to Sony's business practise and how and why it does what it does. Well fine, if that floats your boat. It just matters very little to me how Sony or Panasonic conducts their Business. I buy their products not their shares.

Some see cameras as a train spotter sees trains. More interested in facts and figures and history, whilst I see it just as a means to get from A to B.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

I'm grateful for dslr video which has given videographers on the low end access to cinema look and feel that had been previously out of reach.

Coming from a proper eng camera makes me shake my head at how some of these dslrs operate I just do my best to work around it. For example, my dslr won't tell you how many minutes are left on the card! It be like selling a car without a gas gauge!

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Actually we have the video features of the 5D Mark 2 to thank for cameras like the C100, C300, Sony FS5 and 7 and the Panasonic DVX200 amongst others. Until then, sensors were much smaller despite being larger proper video cameras.

As for its limitations, they can vary from camera to camera. My GH4Rs has unlimited recording, so I get to see how many minutes are left on any card I put in. A feature I'm happy to see continues to the GH5.

I own a Panasonic AF101a and despite being a proper video camera, felt more restrictive than the GH4. Mainly down to lack of touchscreen, and the white balance and gain being toggle switches between 3 custom options. Okay easy to operate and in the case of white balance operational whilst recording, but frustrating to use in practise.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Except of course that full frame 35 and larger are the only "pro" sensor sizes for still photography. :) So it loses against both stills and video in terms of sensor.


I don't think Sony is worried, they're dominating and on a winning streak. And Canon doesn't care because Canon never cares about anyone else ever anyway. But here's hoping you're right that it pushes Sony to delivery more!

And... I ordered one before even starting this thread! :D

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

I think Sony should be fine. I mean, they knew this camera was coming down the road for a while now.

I think we know for sure that Sony will not ever under any circumstances match every incredible GH5 feature...lol...no friggin' way!

I think that Sony will fire back at Panasonic with an A7s-III. (which has always been the camera they challenged the GH4/DSLR crowd with anyway.) But how will Sony do it? It's my guess that they will add a stop or more of DR to that big beautiful sensor and clean up the signal to noise ratio buy another 1 or 2db or maybe 3db. Then they enable UHD 4:2:2 60p output over it's new HDMI 2.0 port.

That's it. That's all I see them doing. I bet they will just keep the standard XAVC-S 100Mbp/s 8 bit internal CODEC.

Now,...that could be one hell of a camera in a big rig if you have a Shogun to record ProRes externally. This will smoke a GH5 in final image quality. Especially in low light, no doubt.

I believe this GH5 is truly historic. It's going to be known as THE camera that forced everybody to do something they never wanted to do for $2000. I really have to tip my hat to Panasonic on this. They have allot of balls to push the marketing envelope and disrupt the entire industry like this.

Bravo Lumix,....bravo!

CT

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

I don't see how it disrupts anything. Each manufacturer has carved out their own niche in the dslr market. Sony full frame, Canon APC, and Panasonic MFT. Each with their pros and cons. Users have the luxury of choice to pick what suits their needs. Life isn't always neatly defined where there are only winners and losers.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Well, the HDMI 2.1 specification just got released, and hopefully that will increase the pixel clock enough to do 10bit 4:2:2 4K 60p out.

One big thing for Sony to overcome is the simultaneous record and 4K HDMI output. Panasonic overcame it, now it's Sony's turn. For goodness sakes, the FS5 has this crippling issue too.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

So I'll admittedly go way out on the limb here and make a guess that Panasonic is not just buying a Sony IMX269 sensor but is also buying Sony's full pixel readout and scaling engine. Possibly even their new next generation LSI and 6k processing. (A6500 and A99-II) All this stuff is for sale if the price is right.

Yeah...I loved my FS5, I really did but that sensor is really showing its age these days. Its time for Sony to buy 2017 sensors from Sony Semiconductor and change that old FS raw protocal. I think the next FS body needs a modern 6k sensor matched to an appropriate 6k FS raw protocol. I mean, it can be the same protocol but with the new 6k pixel addresses. Then give that data configuration to Atomos and Convergent and hope they can figure out a way to deBayer it on their existing models. If not, they will need to redesign their recorders.

Hell,....im going to predict that a GH5 will literally the noise performance of an FS5 if not even beat it.

Its going to be very interesting to see somebody do that low light shootout. (I mean the A6300 already beats the FS5 in signal to noise ratio and detail)

If Sony doesn't agressively (and carefully) fight the GH5, I'd bet my life that Sony will lose significant customer numbers to the GH5 over the next 2 years.

CT

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Agree Pete, it is not a fight as in a winner and a loser. That is an inappropriate metaphor. It is a competition for customer dollars which in this instance could well be a race to the bottom. But it won't be as both Sony and Panasonic are too savvy to go there.

If Sony loose significant customer numbers in this relatively small, to them, market segment it will be because there is no clear compelling business case for them to invest the R&D required to do otherwise. It will be, is already, has been for some time, a business decision driven first and foremost by a highly rigorous long term strategic plan totally bought into at the board level and secondly by other business opportunities with more compelling business cases competing for limited R&D dollars.

I agree with you Cliff, one thing you may be sure of is that Sony did not wake up the morning the full specifications of the GH5 were released and say, as we all did 'goodness gracious me, how about that'. They would have known months if not a year or two ago what was coming. If Sony had a compelling business case to compete in this market segment, to go head to head with the GH5, I suggest they would already be there, long long ago. My bet is that Sony has already lost many customers - full frame, APS-C, 1 inch - to the GH5 and that does not cause them concern as their focus, their quest for profit, is elsewhere driven by more compelling business cases.

While for us the GH5 might be seen as a game changer behind the closed boardroom doors the game already changed quite some time ago. It will not be business as usual in this market segment.

Just my opinion.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

This is a good overview of the camera.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Another interesting angle to see this GH5;

What is it that allows Panasonic to happily develop a camera with these extremely over the top specs and what is it about Sony that is negatively affecting them from doing the same?

What is it that has gotten Sony backed into a marketing corner?

Is Sony's current camera fleet way too crowded and too dense and is that strategy hurting them today?

Does Sony have too many products that are positioned too closely together to allow any of them room to breathe and compete with more aggressive features?

Is Panasonic's Pro product's marketing model superior to Sony's, allowing them to build and profit from a tremendously aggressive camera like the GH5 in a way that Sony just can't profit from?

One simple example of how twisted Sony's thinking can be is their use of SLOG-2/3. Look at the Alpha group and how they think. They give out SLOG-2/3 like it's candy! A7s/r series gets it. A6300/6500 gets it. Multiple RX Cybershots get it. Some of these are extremely cheap cameras. Meanwhile, over at XDCAM, the lowest camera allowed to have SLOG-2/3 is the $5000+ FS5. What?....Giving SLOG-2/3 to many of their lower XDCAM's would give them a great usable advantage and give the a one up over the competition. But nope,...somebody at XDCAM management is to afraid to do it. This is why a $1000 Cybershot RX100 will give you FAR more dynamic range than a rec.709, locked down, $3,200 XDCAM Z150. (and they use the same sensor...it's really sorta sad.)

Sony's "Alpha vs. XDCAM" is such a Jeckle & Hyde, two faced entity. One is a bull and the other is a bear. Alpha is cutting edge, FAST and aggressive while XDCAM is conservative, SLOW and relies heavily and constantly on recycled and repackaged electronics from other models. I dunno,....just how I see it lately.

“If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will," - Steve Jobs

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

These 2 camera's have nothing in common at all, I think you just place them against eachother for the sake of having a discussion to see which one smokes the other one, just start with the price, the gh4 can be had for as low as 1100 euro, the a7sII is 3500 euro, that's over 3 times more expensive, full frame vs m4/3, 409600 max iso vs 6400iso just to name a few key differences.
Not even sure why the sony is brought up in this discussion.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Well Panasonic have their Pro and Consumer split too. The GH5 is part of the consumer group and has specs that look close to the DVX200 with more flexibility. However the HC-X1/UX180 are only 8 bit and no vlog where as the FZ2500 a similar 1" sensor to the UX90 I think has vlog available and is in some respects a better camera than the UX90 for less money. Appears to just miss mostly XLR interfaces !!! Also can be controlled by the consumer WiFi app with preview control not available for the UX90 !! The HC-X1 and UX180 have no competition in the Sony range in my mind as they have UHD 60 etc though they are short of 10bit !!

My focus in ordering the GH5 is purely UHD 60P video with the opportunity to buy an Atomos Inferno and get UHD 60P 10bit 4:2:2 output. The combined cost of this setup is less than the FS5 that does not have UHD 60P. It will end up on a tripod in the theatre with a fast lens. For a general cam outdoors etc I think I would pick the FZ2500 and may go this way and sell my AX100. Been a Sony guy for a long time but the latest set of Panasonic cameras are hitting a lot of the things I want.

Ron Evans

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

You are right Noa, hehe....i think i did hijack the thread with Panny vs. Sony talk.

Yes, they are very different cameras but I suspect that they DO compete for the same customers to a certain degree. Look at me? I'm an A7s-II owner and i just pre ordered the GH5 myself.

Also, just because the GH5 is cheaper doesn't mean it's not comparable to Sony A7x models. In fact, I strongly suspect that the GH5 will hurt Sony A7x sales considerably, even with the sensor size difference. The fact that it IS cheaper and overflowing with crazy, never seen before features will make everybody think twice before buying a new Sony A7x.

So yeah,...they ARE different cameras but I'm sure they are competing over the exact same buyers wallets and pocket books.

Sorry for the thread hijack. ;-)

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

It's crazy to think how fast equipment is changing/moving. Just a few years ago I purchased a Sony PMW500 body, this was their flagship model back then and was in high demand, low light sucked on this thing and the the body set me back 34k however it shot 50Mbps 4:2:2.

Fast forward now... a few thousand bucks gets you a camera that fits in your back pack fantastic lowlight 4K and bit rates I only dreamed of back then WOW.

I'm still a Sony fanboy as all my cameras are the Mirrorless ones (sold everything when the A7s came out) and now the GH5 is looking great.

Amazing how cheap everything is now.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

I just watch the GH5 in-depth look video, wow... they have packed everything into this thing and hang on... did he say 3hrs on one battery.

I don't know much about the GH4/5 and i'm going to look and learn a lot more I think. I stayed away from the GH4 and went all the way with Sony, I gota say the A7 series cameras are great however I find getting the right colours a challenge and I have always liked the look of Panasonic.

Ok, take my money.

I wonder what Sony will bring out?

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

It's astonishing how much Panasonic has shoved into this GH5. I mean, My God, I have to buy it, I pretty much have no choice in the matter. Really, how in the heck does anybody expect me to resist so much for so little? It's like they are giving us a Lamborghini for the price of a Ford mustang.

As a crazy nutty die hard, faithful Sony fanboy,...realistically, what could I do? Say "no"?...Yeah right!

Panasonic has easily and very quickly seduced me with the GH5.

And now I'm about to cheat. Sorry Sony :-(

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

Common Cliff, get over it; you can do it.. It's only tough the first time. I was a Sony fanboy too and I made the huge leap to Panasonic. Repeat after me 'I am done with Sony cams, done done done; that's it'. The hardcore Sony fanboys are in denial and will take a little longer to see the light ;-)

But seriously, the feature set the GH5 brings to the table is remarkable at that price. At any price what piece of kit has a matching set of specs?

Be excited as it is exciting. Laugh with joy and be merry!

Oh Panasonic, oh panny, for you I slap my fanny; panny panny panny (repeat ad nauseam) :-)

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

lol,...Oh John, I was only dramatically joking in the corniest way. ;-)

I must say that I'm dying to know what Sony's next chess move is.

Uggg,...The only thing is that I have allot of money invested in Sony glass. I wont be leaving my A7S-II rig whatsoever. I love that beast way too much and it has done amazing things for me. (much more than my FS5 did) But, I do have several Rokinon EF Cine lenses to use on the GH5. I'm just not looking forward to starting a new Micro 4/3 lens buying spree from scratch. That sucks.

I'll take it one day at a time with that GH5.

CT

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

I know, and so was I and perhaps even more corny than you, I reckon :-)

(do you think we might get banned for being frivolous?)

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

You remind me a bit of Gollem in LOTR :)

I will sit this one out to see how the camera performs IRL, I have a g80 on order (which cost me 640euro excl vat) to combine with my gx80 (which is 415 euro) which will be my main 2 camera's for all my handheld work and then I have the gh4 on a gimbal for the weddings that I do in 2017. With the exception of the GH5 current Panasonic dslr's are just so dirt cheap yet pack a lot of punch that they are the best investment I have made the past year. IBIS has allowed me to shoot in a much faster, lighter and different way (no more dragging a monopod around) that it has improved the overal look of the weddings I shoot solo and gave me enough confidence to charge more for my work. So a minimal investment and a max profit, what's not to like about that? :)

I expect the gh5 to go down in price a few months after it hit's the streets and then I might consider to buy it end of this year or beginning 2018.

I see many people getting exited about the codec but for me the IBIS is the most valuable part, being able to shoot in 4:2:2 10 bit won't make any difference in the type of work I do, vlog I don't care about and 4K 50p would be usable but only for the slowmotion which I sometimes use in my trailers. Currently I only use 4K if I want to be able to reframe in post, otherwise I prefer to shoot 1080p 50p all the time. The dual card recording is then again a valuable safety feature and the add on xlr box that takes power true the hotshoe and doesn't require any cables to connect to the camera will be useful as well in certain scenarios. The fact it can shoot in 12800 iso now and by the looks of it doesn't produce more noise then the gh4 makes at 6400 iso is a big plus as well considering all the dark venues I end up in. The 180fps won't be used that much, I never even used 96fps on the gh4, but I guess that in some cases it might be useful. All in all Panasonic has made a considerable improvement over the GH4, if only they could improve the autofocus.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

To be fair, IBIS is hardly a new feature, so its understandable that the codec gets the attention here, and whilst not something you personally need - it comes as a useful feature for some of the things I shoot in my work. I'll be buying the GH5 as soon as its out and it'll sit as the crown jewel amongst my GX80, G80 and 2 GH4Rs.

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

For the gh5 ibis is a new feature, compared to the gh4 it's like night and day when you shoot with unstabilized primes which makes it a very useful and welcome feature. Beside the 4K50p, what advantages would the new codec give you?

Re: New Panasonic GH5 Official
 

I think that a majority of people that get exited about the codec have no idea how to get the most of it, it's just a few that actually need it and know how to manipulate it, the rest just wants to have it because they think their footage will become magically so much better, I have seen enough poorly graded log footage to prove my point. When you combine the GH5 with other camera's, like the g80, gx85 or gh4 I also wonder how that will turn out when you shoot vlog, spend a lot of time grading it and then find out it doesn't match any of your other camera's footage. You can also ask yourself if it's worth all the extra time grading your footage when you have to shoot and edit a wedding every weekend. Same goes for the very high bitrates, I always shoot at 50mbs for HD which I find a very effective bitrate, never crossed my mind to shoot at 200mbs because I can't see the difference from a normal viewing distance. Same applies for 4K, 100mbs has been plenty for my needs, not saying that high bitrates are useless, I"m sure some will benefit from fast motion and scenes with high detail but again for the majority of users that end up with the GH5 most of the bitrates will be overkill.
Just to have Cliff as an example, he certainly looks overly exited over the camera's specifications that he has preordered a gh5, but I would like to see what he actually thinks the camera does for him that his a7sII cannot do.