V1 25p issues (combined threads)

[Simon Wyndham]

Trouble is that there's more going on here than a simple reduction in vertical resolution.

[Tony Tremble]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Everyone has assumed that the V1 can be clocked at 24, 25, 30, 50, and 60. If this is the case, then all frame rates should/must have the same quality.

But there is an alternative: the camera can be clocked at 24, 50, and 60. These all have the same quality. Then 25 is "derived" from 50 and 30 is "derived" from 60. I say "derived" because I have no idea what process would be used. You say it could be deinterlaced, but since the video is already 50p or 60p that makes no sense.

We'll soon see if 30p looks "bad."

I know Steve, it's unfathomable to me. The thing is when a live output from the component cables is viewed on a HD production monitor there is no visual difference between 50i and 25P. The difference comes after HDV compression either to tape or live out through FW. The HDV compression engine is over smoothing the image. If you have a look at the clip on shapidshare you can see this perfectly well. There is a lot of mosquito noise around edges. In 25P the edges in an image "buzz" which they don't in 50i.

The oil paint effect is in those images posted Matthew. You can see high frequency filtering of the tarmac in the foreground. The effect is not so obvious in Matthew's pictures as mine because there a huge areas of low detail.

I am perplexed by the whole thing but at least my dealer is on board now so I am close to a resolution.

Safe travels

TT

[Uri Keich]

A disclaimer: I know little about the electronics that's behind these wonderful machines so take what follows with a spoon of salt.
First a prediction: 30P would look just as bad. But how come 24P looks good? Because the tape must be “aware” that it is a 2:3 pull-down so it knows the frames are progressive. On the other hand, there is probably no indication that the movie is taped in 30P: Sony promises compatibility of 30P with all its existing HDV products. That places an unacceptable burden on the MPEG2 encoder since it probably takes into account the fact that the lower and upper fields are time shifted when analyzing any motion. With 30P the two fields are all of a sudden “unexpectedly” synchronized so if the encoder takes the time shift that's not there into account it would make a mess. What we are seeing might be a result of Sony's attempt to deal with this potential problem.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Uri Keich

.
First a prediction: 30P would look just as bad. But how come 24P looks good?

Either 25p and 30p are generated differently than 24p OR the NLE is chroma filtering the two interlace "fields" which is fine for interlace video, but damaging to progressive where the two fields are not fields but simply odd and even lines.

If this is the case, it should look fine being played from a V1, but look bad if processed by certain NLEs. Does it?

DSE -- how does Vegas deal with 25p and 30p verses 50i and 60i. It seems the chroma filter for interlace should be turned off for 25p and 30p.

[Zsolt Gordos]

Originally Posted by Uri Keich

What we are seeing might be a result of Sony's attempt to deal with this potential problem.

There is another problem then. And it is not exactly technical. My money has been printed tack sharp and its not the result of my attempt to get it printed in a color printer with slight "oil paint" looks.
Sorry for being emotional.

[Sebastion Meddings]

My local Dealer has steered me away from the Sony V1 in favour of the A1 Canon for progressive mode, but I thought that the Sony was actually a true progressive mode and the Canon was mock. I was happier with the Canon purely for Lowlight reasons but I had no idea that he may have been right about the prog mode as well!

[Laurent Delaroziere]

Originally Posted by Sebastion Meddings

My local Dealer has steered me away from the Sony V1 in favour of the A1 Canon for progressive mode, but I thought that the Sony was actually a true progressive mode and the Canon was mock. I was happier with the Canon purely for Lowlight reasons but I had no idea that he may have been right about the prog mode as well!

the canon 25f is not a true progressive mode but it's really really nice. no visible differences. you just loose 10% of resolution which is nothing with the high resolution of this cam. and you can use all shutter speeds. it's just a different way to achieve progressive. i would call fake progressive sony's old cineframe. not canon's 25f.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Sebastion Meddings

My local Dealer has steered me away from the Sony V1 in favour of the A1 Canon for progressive mode,

You dealer couldn't have steered you away from the Sony because of "progressive" because there is no data that proves there is a problem. Two reports mean nothing.

Moreover, as we found with JVC -- the Sony UK mangement may accept product that that the Sony USA or Sony German management would not. Those getting product before the USA seem to have more problems.

And, it very well may be the NLE that is being used. Your dealer could not possibly know that which none of us knows.

[Tony Tremble]

Steve,

The progressive mush IS recorded to tape. Just plugged camera into DELL monitor. Its not a very high quality component input on this monitor but it is absolutely enough to show the difference between Progressive and Interlaced. So it's _not_ the NLE that is destroying the image. In fact checking here shows the loss in detail is present in live camera mode as well.

Sony UK are aware of the problem and have asked me to provide a tape which will be in the post this afternoon. They are anxious to nip this in the bud ASAP.

I am having loads of issues with capturing into FCP only now being able to get 12-24 frames in to the timeline. It seems every time a new GOP is started the log/capture loses sync.

To the worried,

I am sure that Sony will sort the problem ASAP.

From the amazing rendition of colours to the pin sharp resolution in 50i mode I can assure you this camera will be the mutts nuts when these teething problems are fixed. This camera is proof positive that one simply does not need a plethora of image adjustments to create a mesmerising picture. It is simply one of the best images I have ever seen, in 50i, and is high definition in every sense of the phrase. This camera renders colours so incredibly accurately you will be astonished and it is completely devoid of any "manufacturer's look." It sets a new benchmark for compact HD cameras and begins to knock on the door of the XDCAMs. I am sure XDCAM owners will pick up one of these for B-roll.

Let's not get down the problem is in hand.

Peace.

[Simon Wyndham]

Yes, hopefully this will get solved. In all other respects the V1 is a brilliant camera, and yes, it would make a superb B-camera to an XDCAM HD.

[Brian Standing]

I've been watching this thread with great interest. I'm over in NTSC land, and I've been interested in the V1 for its 30p capability.

Glad to see Sony's taking you guys seriously. Hopefully, this will be like the "audio hiss" problem with early PD-150s and VX2000s, and will be corrected promptly.

With all the technology that's crammed into these tiny little cameras, I'm often amazed they work at all.

[Heath McKnight]

Just out of curiousity, are you guys trying to remove the pulldown?

heath

[Stephen van Vuuren]

That's seriously ugly footage - that has to be a defect. I can't imagine any camera company designing a camera to make footage like that - it's far worse than any other issue I recall seeing. It will be interesting to find out from Sony exactly what is afoot.

[Heath McKnight]

So far this is more of an isolated incident, so until we see if others are having problems, let's not jump to conclusions that all units are like this.

heath

[Stephen van Vuuren]

Originally Posted by Heath McKnight

So far this is more of an isolated incident, so until we see if others are having problems, let's not jump to conclusions that all units are like this.

heath

I think we can safely conclude it's more than a individual unit problem - the review unit posted by Simon had it, this unit and Tony's dealer's other units. To me that makes a "batch" problem as this point. Other V1e's may be trouble free and hopefully more reports and Sony will chime in (and 30p on US units can be tested).

I tend to think these issues are educational in learning how imagers/DSP etc. work despite the short term pain for those affected.