My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), the expresscard bus is capable of using one or both of the following data buses: USB and/or PCIe.

The Kensington expresscard is USB based only and will not work with the Sony SBAC-10 which is PCIe based ONLY.

My understanding is the original EX1 software (prior to current 1.1), only allows PCIe communication. This is the high speed comm used with the SxS cards.

My guess is Sony enabled USB to allow their new PHU-60K viso capture drive to work with the EX series. This drive is obviously USB based.

Sorry to be so thick, Steve, but I'm still confused. The PHU-60 connects ONLY with a USB cable to the Mac. It won't work with the Kensington ?

No, the kensington is an expresscard to SDHC media adapter.

I meant the SBAC-10 USB reader.

I have not tried, but I'm "almost" 100% sure the Kensington (USB based) will not work with the SBAC-10 PCIe based only (I believe).

I must be a big nerd because I find this whole thread quite exciting. :) I look forward to reading it when I get home... LOL As soon as I get the camera I will test out some Optima PNY 4gb class-4 SDHC I have laying around.

Great Erik.
Report back. Also run the Crystal Disk Mark utility.
Watch it run though. Don't just wait for the results.
Because it runs each test five times, it only takes one write or read to drop below the required data rate and the EX will fail.

The SanDisk devices have a sustained data write and read above 15MB/s, this is what makes these SDHC a stable choice.

tested it.. the numbers only went up and down by a few tenths during the test. Are these good? I gotta go back at look at the other results.

Seq= R 19.37 - W 7.561
512k= R 19.15 - W 2.234
4k= R 4.142 - W 0.024

Erik

Here's a re-post of my results for the comparison.

Mine is actually Cables Unlimited Card Reader IOC-9750 adapter + Sandisk Extreme III 30MB/s card combo.

Crystal Mark readings of my adapter/card combo (5 tests):
Read Seq: 19.38; 512K: 19.17; 4K: 3.706 MB/s
Write: Seq: 15.80; 512K: 3.344; 4K: 0.033 MB/s

On comparison, SxS Sandisk card, 16Gb, rendered:
Read Seq: 99.53; 512K: 96.14; 4K: 9.84 MB/s
Write: Seq: 79.19; 512K: 7.297; 4K: 0.057 MB/s

It would appear that *your* card's read speed is good, but write speed is not enough? I'm sure Steven knows better though.

Erik,
Thanks for the quick turn around on your tests.

I agree with Alex, you may be a bit on the slow side for write speed.

The 16GB Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC sustained write speed is over 15MB/s and only sells for less than $70 USD.

Having said that, your PNY may work in HQ modes.
The normal sustained write in HQ mode max is around 40mbps = 5MB/s,
But, sustained data rates is only one aspect.

Check it out and report back.
Try the overcrank test.
The SanDisk can overcrank to 40FPS without error. I believe this calculates near 8.3MB/s write speed.
So these cards have decent headroom for HQ modes.

Thanks Alex,
Man, those SxS cards are fast!

Well it might be a good SQ card :) Got my UPS shipping confirmation, it will be here on the 8th.

True, unless the random or access time is to slow. You'll know soon.

Hey there is a 16GB SDHC CLASS 6 turbo ADATA card in town for 44 bucks. I will pick it up today and test it. If it fails I can take it back quickly.

Also there is a patriot 16gb card for 49 plus a 20 dollar rebate.

Erik,
I'm not sure if it will work. I picked up the 8GB ADATA class 6 version a while back. Its sustained write speeds were all over the place from 3.72MB/s to 10.68MB/s.
3.7MB/s write speed will definately cause a memory write error in the EX.


ADATA 8GB SDHC TURBO CLASS 6 (Crystal Disk Mark test):

Sustained data rate: Read: 18.64MB/s to 18.69MB/s Write: 3.72MB/s to 10.68MB/s
Random 512K file: Read: 17.96MB/s to 18.69MB/s Write: 2.70MB/s to 3.10MB/s
Random 4K file: Read: 3.57MB/s to 3.91MB/s Write: 0.033MB/s to 0.035MB/s

Since reliability and speed is a huge issue here, going with tried-and-true Sandisk cards is what I'd do.

If offload in the field is required, Sandisk 16Gb Extreme III 30MB/s.

If you can afford to just accumulate the cards and offload afterwards, or if for any other reason offload speed is not a factor, then get Sandisk 16Gb Ultra II 15MB/s. (latter I personally did not test but Steven did and liked, I think.)

Extreme is available here or here, and Ultra here or here.

That until other cards have a proven reliability record...

I hear you Alex.

I'm not sure how someone can not afford to buy a load of cards and offload later.

You could actually buy TWELVE 16GB Ultra II 15MB/s cards for the cost of ONE 16GB SxS.

Well, if possible, I'd still check and offload the footage in the field, just to make sure you actually got it.

Yes, you would not have to worry about copying it to another drive, but I imagine it may be smart to pop the SDHC in your laptop and verify the footage is OK.

...at which point you might as well offload it :)

But of course different people will have different workflows.

Yes, it really depends on what you're shooting.

If you're shooting a special event, you can only pray that all went well. It's not like you will have the event start over because you lossed your footage. Of course, this goes without saying.


No doubt you'd check your footage during set session work.

I absolutely trust the dealer. It is one of the largest on-line stores in scandinavia and definately has the real stuff. I only hope it is faulty... Any ideas on further tests?

It's obviously defective, or your Kensington is bad.

I can't make my SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s or Extreme III 30MB/s fail in HQ modes.
I've been torturing these for over three weeks and can can not get them to fail.
In fact, I can't get them to fail running ovecrank at 40FPS which is around 8.3MB/s max.

HQ mode max is 5MB/s write speed.

Did you bother looking at links to images of real verses fake Ultra II?
Or, you just got a dud.

Run the Crystal Disk Mark utility for data rate test.

Thanks Steven. I have checked and as far as I can tell it is genuine. I have also run Crystal DMU. I monitored the metering and the results were fairly similar during on all five tests. These are the averages:

Read: 15.54, 15.13, 4.128
Write: 14.64, 3.59, 0.029

The problem does not seem to be write or read speed but more of a general stability problem. The strange thing is also that the camera tells me that media needs to be restored but it does not give me the option to do this. After recording and switching to playback mode I get an error. When I put the card into the computer Windows prompts me to format it...

My 8 GB Extreme III card still behaves perfectly so the adapter does not seem to be the problem. In fact I just recorded a more than 14 minutes long clip at 50/25 fps without errors (!).

Does anybody know of any other reliability tests that I can run? And also - can someone confirm that this exact card Sandisk Ultra II 16 GB works well in their setup?

A couple have already reported that the 16GB Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC does work fine without errors. Matt has reported using the 16GB Ultra II for 2.5 weeks with no errors using HQ modes.

The Digital Video Information Network - View Single Post - Media needs to be restored (PHU-60K)

When you watched the Crystal Disk Mark test run, it runs each test five times. When it finishes, the program only lists the average. You have to write down each test as the program runs. So you should have a total of 30 data points.

But based on your overall average, it's strange it failed. I'd return it for another.
Since the Extreme III works, it seems like the Ultra II card is defective.

Hi guys,

this thread is as confusing as useful it is. FYI you are doing a pioneering work here (kudos to Steven mostly) in order to make EX-s even more affordable and release them from the price trap of the SXS cards.

It would be great to see a comprehensive analytic approach undisturbed by sideways info. Best to follow what scientific research does:

Once promising data pop up in a lab, others copy the approach and re-test it. If the test results in same end points in a few other labs, the results can be taken final and can be labeled as proven. (here: Kensington 7in1 with Sandisk Ultra II and Extreme III tried and proven to work in SQ and HQ by many)

But:

some things are not yet clear or hidden within the ocean of posts

- does it make any sense using more expensive Sandisk Extreme vs Ultra ?? If it does, what is the benefit using Extreme? No one ever said that.
- it is also not clear what is the difference between the various size cards, is the 16Gb same as 8Gb in both Sandisk lines or there is a difference, or we can safely say that ALL Ultra and Extreme cards available today can safely be used?

Once these questions are answered, the investigation might move forward - having a sound proven basis on using SD cards (Kensington 7in1 with Sandisk Ultra II and Extreme III as golden standard)

Then,

I would take the Kensington and try other cards in it for reliability.

Another tester would test the proven working cards (Sandisk Ultra II and Extreme III) with other card readers.

Then probably there would be a weekly update on the results and a sticky with the tested and working configs.

I would separately test overcranking with proven reader and SD card combos and see what can I get. (my EX3 is ordered, not delivered yet - thats why I cannot contribute more, but I have 2 Kensingtons and 2 16Gb Ultras already...)

Sorry, my intention is not to hijack this thread, I just spent the last night with reading it - there is a buzz in my head, and I don't know more than Steven knew after 3 days testing of his Kensington 7in1 with Sandisk Ultra II and Extreme III.

It would be great to see clearly, thats all I try to achieve.

Thanks a bunch.

I understand that Extreme III is faster offloading the data to PC than Ultra II.

(If you have a fast SLR camera, like D90, you can also use Extreme III in it for dual-purpose application.)

Also keep in mind that Cables Unlimited Card Reader IOC-9750 adapter works as well in my tests as Kensington does in Steven's.

Great to hear you will jump onto the XDCAM EX platform as well, Zsolt! I remember times we discussed our old, good V1E's..

I completely agree there is a need to tidy this thread up a bit, and perhaps make it a sticky...

I'm sorry I cannot contribute to it, but I'm waiting for my NanoFlash and will be buying my flash cards to be used with it more than with the EX1. Nevertheless, it's great to know that the promised alternative to those still expensive SxS cards IS finally there; many thanks to people like Steven at al for testing this.

Hall of Famers: Steven Thomas, Brian Rhodes, Keith Moreau :)

Piotr,

apparently your V1E made more money for you than mine for me :) I cannot afford going towards the NanoFlash route, I am totally broken after ordering my EX3 .... sigh

Class 4 or Class 6 ???
 

I just have realized that my Sandisk Ultra II 16Gb cards are Class 4

Does it mean they wont work? Funny thing is I cannot find any Class 6 Ultras in any reliable shops. (I never eBay for this kind of products)
Does Ultra come in Class 6 flavor at all or shall I expect only Extreme III to be Class 6

Thanks.

The Ultras are class 4 but have been proved to work fine. I am still waiting for delivery of a 32Gb Ultra 11. Paid for and meant to be in stock the last week in september, they are not even in the country yet. ( UK)

£89 for 32Gb!!! A bargain.

Steve, exactly! This is why I ask questions. Call me a stingy bastard, but once I start saving I wanna save big :)

Disregard the classification for the Ultra II cards.

Since the minimum data rate is greater tha 6MB/s (Ultra min. is 15MB/s), SanDisk could of classified them in CLASS 6. Maybe they did this to market their Extreme in CLASS 6, who knows..

Right now, I'd say the right choice is to buy the Ultra II SDHC cards. The new Extreme III 30MB/s offers a slightly better off-load data rate when transferring to your PC. Both of these cards off load at around 20MB/s

My understanding is to access the new Extreme III 30MB/s data rate, additional coding must be written for the controller. SanDisk worked with Nikon to allow the 30MB/s to work with their new D90.

The Kensington 7-in-1 expresscard media adaptor is currently the number one choice for expresscard adaptor for the EX1 and EX3.

Right now the only confirmed SanDisk Ultra II SDHC cards are the:

4GB Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC card.
16GB Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC card.

I don't understand why the Ultra II's are only class 4 (4MB/s) when SanDisc rate the cards at 15MB/s.

I hear you on that Alister. Maybe to protect their Extreme III class 6 cards?

Just bringing this to the top... with Steve Thomas' testing....

The reader/adaptor (~ $40)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=475428&is=REG

The 16GB Ultra II card (~ $74)
SanDisk | 16GB Ultra II Secure Digital (SDHC) | SDSDRH-016GR

The 16GB Ultra III card ( ~ $170 )
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=580125&is=REG

The obvious cost difference for Extreme II vs Extreme III and the fact that
the EX1/EX3 can't benefit from the extra speed of the Extreme III ( maybe a
future firmware upgrade ??? )

But folks that also have still camera setups that benefit from the Extreme III
speed will want to choose perhaps a little differently. ( Nikon D90, Canon 5D MKII )

Thanks Ray, I really wish I had access to or someone can test the following Expresscard to USB adaptor:

MicroU2E-MV USB 2.0 to USB Mode ExpressCard 34|54 Multi-Voltage Host Adapter, Synchrotech

Test it using the Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC using the Crystal Disk Mark speed test utility.

This may help us understand where's the "bottleneck" for data rate with the Kensington/Ultra II SDHC combo.

Right now, using the Kensington / Ultra II SDHC combo in the EX, our overcrank calculations tell us we can write at no more than 8.3MB/s without an error.

We also know the Crystal Disk Mark utility shows we can write to the Ultra II SDHC card using a basic SDHC to USB reader at a sustained rate of over 15MB/s.

Now, if we use or combo in the above Synchrotech Expresscard to USB adaptor and we are able to measure using Crysal Disk Mark utility a 15MB/s sustained write, we will know that the problem is that the way Sony is writing and reading to the USB 2.0 data line. It's possible they crippled it to cap out at around 8.5 MB/s... Who knows... Or a programming issue?

OR, if the combo in this above Synchrotech expresscard to USB adaptor also caps out at 8.3MB/s, we'll know the problem is with the Kensington limiting the data rate.

I have a feeling the Kensington will fair fine and the problem will be the limitation either set by Sony or messed up by them on data rate write via USB 2.0.
This MAY also explain why their own video drive PHU-60K has memory errors.

BTW Ray, I see that link at B&H they are OUT of stock on the Kensington. LOL... I wonder why ;)

There are a few online stores (including big A) where you can find. Interestingly customers rate Kensington lowest among similar products. Apparently not the EX users go shopping there :)

Yes, I believe it was due to some macs won't go to sleep mode when the card is inserted.
I could care less....