My concern with the PHU-60K is the fact that no hard drive is as dependable as solid state memory. I shot a Firestore for a couple of years with my HVX200. Other than the bulk of the device, I was in constant fear of HD failure. It did not fail. I sold it when I bought the EX3 and my unfortunate customer broke it almost immediately.

At $1K for a 60gb solution that won't under/overcrank, that adds bulk and weight I would say take a pass. Buy a Kensington adapter for under $40 and a bunch of $20 Transcend 8gb cards. Reserve your SxS cards for S&Q motion. Save money and bulk.

Just my .02

Paul,

Maybe your definition of "next to nothing" is different than mine, but a 160 GB disk is around € 200, the PHU-60K is around € 900, so totaling around € 1100. Ten 16 GB cards amount to around € 8500 for the same capacity. That price difference gives me a second EX3 for free. All excluding 19% sales tax BTW.

Have you been reading the thread about which cards work with the EX1 and EX3 ? Obviously not. 8gb cards can be bought for around £15, whatever that is in dollars.

Paul.

Quick question sorry if this was mentioned but I did not see it... With this Kensington reader I am assuming the EX1 door has to stay open??? Anyone have any pics of their setup? Does it stick out of the dorr very far? I am late to follow this thread but these developements sound very interesting...

Looks like we have a new winner! The Transcend 16 Gb sounds like the best buy. Any other reason not to get the Transcend no that it proves to be as fast as the Sandisk?

Jason,
It misses closing by maybe 2mm due to the SDHC card protruding from the Kensington..

Yes, the door has to stay open, but if you put it in the rear slot, you can close the door right up to the SDHC card sticking out.

Jon,
Well you can leave the Kensington Reader in the EX1 and just pull out the SDHC card. This is what I'm doing and it works great.

OK sounds fine. I just saw reviews that mention the Macbook Pro cannot sleep after using the reader - but this probably while the card is inserted only right?

I have a feeling many still have not figured out that with the new 1.1 EX1 firmware , or current EX3, you can use the Kensington Expresscard adapter 7-in-1 and certain SDHC cards (see thread) for a really inexpensive solution instead of SxS cards.

In fact, when the 32G Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC cards are released (very soon),
for under $400 USD you can have two Kensington expresscard readers each fitted with 32GB SDHC cards.

So for $400, you will have a by far cleaner solution for 64GB storage over the PHU-60K drive.
Yes, you will not be able to close the EX1 memory door, but the PHU-60K also MUST have the door open too, not to mention you will have a drive tethered off your camera.

Having said that, there will be some who will stay with using only SxS for several reason.
1. Tried, true, and tested
2. Already spent an arm & leg.
3. Faster read support when saving to your PC.
4. S&Q mode support


It's been over a week of testing an have NEVER had one error or media restore (that the PHU-60K is known to have)

Also using the Sandisk Extreme III 30MB/s or SanDisk Ultra II 15/MB/s, these yield 40% headroom over HQ data rate. Based on Alister's report, the Transcend has less than the Sandisk cards I mentioned, but still maintains reasonable headroom.

Alister, I've been testing with the 16GB Transcend cards, and I'm not getting the performance you report. I've only been able to get reliable up to 24P / 38FPS slomo. Beyond that I'll get occasional errors. I don't think there are different models of the Transcend 16GB, but what model are you using? That being said, for the price and for non-slomo shooting the Transcend 16GB seem fine. However I'm ordering the 16GB and 32GB Sandisk Ultra 2 for comparison. I'm intrigued by the 32GB for the nearly 2 hours of shooting time.

Today I did my first real shoot with my EX1 with an 8GB SxS card in slot A and the Transcend 16GB in slot B. In this shoot I did need to do some slomo, but remembering to use Card A wasn't difficult. The only strange error I got was when I was on card B (Transcend) and I switched the video format from 720P to 1080 30P. The LCD had some strange error message, E=12345 (I don't remember the number but it was 5 digits.) The EX1 wasn't really operable at that point, I could switch menus but I don't think I could switch card slots or record.

With a bit of trepidation I removed card B, and turned the power off to the EX1. Repowering, I inserted card B. No errors, no request for media restore, worked fine. Was able to transfer the media over to my hard drive fine not glitches or anything.

I'm using a simple USB to SD adapter and it works great.

Keith, do you have a list of EX1 error codes? wonder what this was.

It may of been something else. It does not appear to be the "typical" memory related error.

Also, I'm wondering if the Transcend is maybe not quite up to par as the SanDisk Extreme and Ulta II.
I do know the Sandisk can overcrank at a higher data rate. 40FPS at 24P


What do you think?

Steven, I have no idea about the error codes or what it meant. I've never seen it before. I was shooting in full sun, the EX1 case was pretty hot at that point.

I did a lot of testing of the Transcend, filling a whole 16GB transcend card at 24P slomo- 38, 39, 40 FPS several times. At 38FPS never an error. At 39, sometimes no error all the way, sometimes an occasional error. At 40, errors at least once, sometimes early, sometimes several minutes in. On the Extreme I was able to get to 43FPS with no errors (although I didn't test it as much as the Transcend.)

Using XBench, which is a Mac benchmarking utility, it's clear that even with the Kensington Expresscard adapter and USB 2.0 as the potential bottleneck, the Extreme III is the fastest, with write speeds using 256k blocks of 13.53 MB/second, my older Sandisk Ultra II 4GB (not the 15MB/sec model) at 8.87 MB/sec, 3rd is the Transcend at 8.42 MB/sec, and , so the old Ultra seems faster than the transcend. Of course the Sony SxS card, unfettered by the Kensington and USB 2.0 blows them all away at 43.96 MB/sec. I've ordered the new Sandisk Ultra II 15MB/sec model, we'll see if that's faster, and that might be the compromise between the Extreme and the Transcend.

So it seems that the Sandisk Extreme is the 'luxury' SDHC card at the moment, but the Transcend is the 'best buy.' I'm going to keep using the Transcend for a while until I find it's unreliable.

Right now, I only have a SanDisk Ultra II 4GB SDHC(yes, 13 whole minutes of HQ! LOL),
but it works as well as my 16GB SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s version SDHC.

I have never seen an error and I've been trying all HQ modes.

I'm looking forward to when the SanDisk Ultra II 32GB SDHC ($150) comes out. Which is suppose to be any day now.

My card and reader arrive tomorrow - I'm lookiing forward to playing with 16GB of memory! I can't believe how much cheaper this route is!

Next, let's all work on alternative fuels.

Hey guys,

How do I read the LEXAR 8GB SSD if I do not have an ExpressCard reader in my computer? Does the Sony SXS reader works with the LEXAR too?

Thanks,
Mike

I'm not allowed to post a link to Office Depots website am I? I couldn't find the model number on their site but I did find the 7 in 1 reader... is that the same one?

No to your first question and yes to your second.

I'm willing to believe you will find a Dvinfo sponsor. Take a look.

thanks man, still learning the style of the site. I'll check out the sponser links.

Sony SXS reader des not work you have to use a lap top with express reader.

Steven-

So how reliable do you think this solution is? More reliable than PHU? But perhaps not as reliable as SxS? I know you are still testing, but would the SDHC solution be acceptable for paid-absolutely-can't-lose-my-footage gigs?

--Nathan

I'd say (knocking very very hard on wood) that after one week of trying I'd trust a top quality SD-card more than Sonys harddrive.
I have tried to get my Sandisk SD-card to fail in all manners I could think of without being able to. It can do a whole card of overcrank in 48 fps which suggests a headroom of almost 100%. The only problem I see with the SD-cards is not being able to close the door of my EX1.

But - I must add - testing has only been going on for a little more than a week. I'd wait a few more weeks to be certain that no strange problems arise.

Well, PLEASE do not go on just my word.

I've been testing the EX1 with:

Kensington 7-in-1 Expresscard reader
16GB SanDisk Extreme III 35MB/s version SDHC (just released)
4GB SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC

I've been trying all HQ modes with NO errors at all.

Remember S&Q overcrank mode is not "suggested" with the Kensington/SDHC card combo.
Why do I say suggested, well with the above mentioned SDHC memory cards listed, I've been able to overcrank in S&Q mode to 40FPS at 720 24P wihout an error.

Having said that I DO NOT suggest using S&Q overcranking. At 45FPS ( 720 24P ) it errors.
This is NOT enough headroom for safe overcranking. If you need to overcrank for slo-mo, use your SxS card.

As I mentioned before, the great thing about knowing this combo can overcrank at 40FPS, it shows us the amount of headroom we have over 35mbps (40mbps max) which is the HQ modes.

The data rate maintains HQ mode (35mbps) during playback of any HQ file regardless if it is overcranked (slo-mo when played back at 24FPS). Therefore, the data rate written during S&Q overcrank must be increased proportional to maintain 35mbps during playback.

The HQ data rate maintains 35mbps, but can hit a max of 40mbps. So, if we were to overcrack twice the framerate of 24FPS, we would set the EX1 to 48FPS. To do this we would have to be able to write at twice the HQ data rate 35mbps (40mpbs max) or 70mbps (80mbps max.)

We can only reach an overcrank of 40FPS (720 24P), which equates to 1.6 times the initial 24FPS framerate. SO, since the data rate written in S&Q mode is proportional to the base rate, in this example HQ mode (35mbps) which tops out at 40mbps, 40mbps x 1.6 = 64mbps (max)

You can see why this combo works well knowing that HQ mode tops out at 40mbps and the combo Kensington/SDHC (listed above) is capable of 64mbps max. This seems like a safe amount of headroom for HQ modes and of course even safer for SQ.

Ola, are you using Sandisk Ultra II, or the new Extreme III?

The Extreme III failed at overcrank of 45, but oddly, I believe the Ultra II ran at 45.

Either way, our numbers are hanging on the edge at this overcrank data rate.

But you're right. I'd say we are safe running HQ modes with this decent headroom.

Based on what I'm reading regarding the Sony drive, it apparently (for some odd reason) may have less headroom, or some other issue.

Again, like yourself I have not been able to get the Kensington/Sandisk SDHC (i've listed) to fail. It works great and spans across both Kensington cards I have inserted in my EX1 with no problems.

I'm looking forward to hearing about or trying the new SanDisk 32GB Ultra II 15MB/s SDHC cards. It's hard to believe I will be able to two 32GB cards (64GB)loaded in the EX1 for under $400!

Keith, I was surprised by the performance of the Transcend 16Gb cards. I had expected something more like the 8Gb cards, which like you I find work upto 38fps. There may not be different model numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if small improvements creep into production runs. Maybe they are produced in different factories. Who knows? Either way, even the lowly 8Gb cards at 38fps are plenty fast enough for HQ.

I use an 8 GB Extreme III and like I mentioned above it managed to overcrank all the way up to 48 fps in 720p 25 mode. Even considering that you ran @24 fps that is a little bit better and gives even more headroom.

It would be very interesting to hear what the Sony harddrive can handle! Please, anyone with a PHU-60K, would you test it out. What fps can it achieve?!

The Sony hard drive cannot over/undercrank. This is documented in the product literature.

Yes, but I seriously doubt it disables overcrank when the EX1 or EX3 is set to overcrank.
The thought is it can overcrank to a certain FPS before it errors.
Is this not the case?

Who has one that can actually try this?

Set the camera to 720 24P, turn ON S&Q, slowly increment from 24FPS, 25FPS, 26FPS, ect... until you determine when it fails.

Another experiment today...

EX3 with Kensington reader + SanDisk Extreme III 16gb card

S&Q Motion-- No problem shooting 24fps/40. At 45 fps, got media error and had to restore card. Recorded 24/45 to SxS card with no problem, of course.

Then copied the 24/45 clip to the SanDisk card in camera.

Mounted SanDisk card on MacPro via a USB2 reader. The 24/45 clip played back perfectly in the Sony Clip Browser 2.0 s/w reading directly from the card-- not even transferred to an internal drive or a raid. So, the bottleneck is definitely with the EX ability to write rather than the card being able to sustain the read.

What if you record 24p/60 overcranked on SxS, transfer to Sandisk, and try to play that off Sandisk?

The HQ playback rate is always 35mbps, even recorded overcranked HQ.

The higher data rate is needed during overcrank recording in order to maintain the HQ 35mbps playback at original frame rate.

I've got the 8gb sandisk extreme 3 and a few transcend 8gb,no problems so far.
I'm thinking of getting a few of the 16gb transcend, is everybody happy so far with the 16gb transcend ?

Thanks.
Paul.

32gb transcend sxs, anyone tried them ?
 

Has anybody tried one of the transcend 32gb sxs cards yet ?
I can get them for about £80.
2 of them in the camera shooting in HQ = 8hours, with no card changing to worry about.

Paul.

4 hours, surely?

Even so, 4x Kensingtons, 4x 32 GB cards < 2x 8 GB SxS and = 1 day conference shoot.

And costs less than the CF card device launched recently.

Conference shoot on 2x EX with no tape ingest = Nirvanah.

Sorry Chris, this calls for a smiley - :-D

Yes Matt, you're maths is correct, what was i thinking !.
I coud get the same amount of storage using transcend 16gb cards for the same price though.
Less footage to loose though if 1 card goes down for whatever reason.

4X8gb
or
2x16gb
or
1x32gb
or
all the same price but 4x8gb is safer.

Paul.

This is great to read about. I really don't expect to do much with over/undercrank, so I am simply concerned with the reliability of the SDHC cards in the EX1/3 in HQ mode. If this is really solid, then I'm going for it, but I'm going to follow these threads very closely. We all need something that WON'T fail. Exciting stuff - being able to do 64 GB for under $400 is amazing!

Please keep testing/posting this stuff. It is VERY helpful.

Yes, I agree that when you need slo-mo, just throw in your SxS card.

We are solely using the overcrank to evaluate the combination expresscard adapter and SDHC data rate when used in the EX1 or EX3.

I've been testing everyday since 9/17 and have yet to have one error using the Kensington 7-in-1 with the new SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s version SDHC and also the SanDisk Ultra II 15M/s SDHC.


At this time, althought the new SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s SDHC is technically capable of sustaining faster data rates (30MB/s over the Ultra II's 15MB/s), the combo adaptor and SDHC card is only allowing up to 8.3MB/s (When used in the EX). Therefore, the Ultra II works equal to the new Extreme SDHC with this combo. Also the Ultra II is half the cost of the Extreme III.


I'd be REAL interested in someone who has an expresscard slot on their PC to download the Crystal Disk Mark data rate speed tester and check the speed of the Kensington 7-in-1 adaptor with the SanDisk Ultra II, Extreme III, Trascend SDHC cards.

Crystal Dew World - Software - CrystalDiskMark

If the write speed is greater than 8.3MB/s, than we will know the data rate is limited by Sony.

In order for S&Q mode to work its highest overcrank data rate, we would have to be able to sustain 12.5MB/s.

I would not be surprised if Sony crippled the data rate for USB 2.0. I sure hope this is not the case.

If Sony is worried about their SxS cards, they need not be worried. They still will sell them to those who will use nothing else due to they offer fast data transfers to your PC.

Also, Sony should also realize that this combo expresscard / SDHC is a real selling point for their cameras! They should offer an expresscard adaptor that allows the EX1 memory door to close with the SDHC cards inserted.

This would be one great push for their marketing.

???
I'm not sure if I understand your post?

The Panasonic SDHC cards were never tested to work?

Run the overcrank test that's been outlined in these threads to determine what kind of headroom there is for the SDHC you are testing.

Based on you are having errors, it's apparent that the Panasonic SDHC card you tested is not capable of sustaining even 5MB/s.

HQ mode max data rate is around 40mbps which equates to 5MB/s (40mbps/8 = 5MB/s)

The new SanDisk 16GB Extreme III 30MB/s version SDHC and SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s are working are capable of writing at 8.3MB/s in the EX with the Kensington 7-in-1. This is decent headromm since HQ mode tops out at writing at 5MB/s

Therefore, unless we're just testing for inexpensive SDHC cards, at this time I do not recommend any other SDHC cards.

Right now, the smartest SDHC card to buy is the 16GB SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s. Man, these are only $60 !! A great buy.
I've used this with the Kensington everyday testing the heck out of it even spanning across cards and have never had one error.

Also, Sony should also realize that this combo expresscard / SDHC is a real selling point for their cameras! They should offer an expresscard adaptor that allows the EX1 memory door to close with the SDHC cards inserted.

This would be one great push for their marketing.

This would be the smartest thing to do for Sony. They would sell loads of cameras. We customers would be more happy, Sony sells more, profits go up, shareholders are even more happy, EX developers get a raise in salary, they design better products, we customers are happier than ever, Sony sells more and more,...................

Just came across this thread. This discussion may allow me to get the EX1 I want. Is it clear which firmware versions this will work with and which it will not? Do we know which version EX1s purchased now will have?