Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird?

Brian Drysdale · March 30th, 2020, 01:36 AM

I wouldn't try doing that, since you don't seem be comfortable about the 180 rule in the first place.

This has been much discussed in another thread, including when breaking is dramatically effective and that doesn't mean just showing a new perspective.

Getting the basics right would be a good start.

Ryan Elder · March 30th, 2020, 02:44 AM

Okay thanks, but that is why I ask questions about it and want to learn more about it. I see other movies break it and wonder when it can work and when it cannot since there are shots where I want to, but not sure if it's acceptable or not.

The movie High and Low does it to show new perspectives, and recently saw it broken in Parasite, so that makes me want to learn more about it...

Brian Drysdale · March 30th, 2020, 02:58 AM

Sorry, given what you seem to have been missing in the simple scene we've just been discussing, you still can't do the basics. You're trying to run before you can even walk.

Note that quite a few of the crossing the line shots in major feature films are mistakes or trying to solve another problem, but the only way out is to cross the line. For example, they have to shorten s scene.

Paul R Johnson · March 30th, 2020, 03:48 AM

Ryan - perhaps it would be best to try and go out and shoot a few things where you do, and don't cross the line - then review what you shot. Simple things - shoot some traffic footage, or kids playing in the park, or skateboarders on a proper site, or dancers - or anything really where people move. Then see which jump on you, and which work. Don;t even think about 180 degrees just direction of travel and where they're facing. The snag here is we all instinctively know when a shot works, or doesn't. We can even predict before we shoot with some certainty, but you seem to lack something here.

Ryan Elder · March 30th, 2020, 11:14 AM

Oh okay, well I have shot a lot of the things over the years and I go out and shoot a lot. When it comes to the 180 degree rule, I almost never got confused when it's broken, so I don't care if it's broken. I feel that the camera should be placed in the best spot for emotional perspective at that time, regardless if it's crossing the line or not, cause whenever I see it in movies, I am never confused.

The only time it's confusing is on CU shots of subjects, cause then they look like they are looking in the same direction. But if it's an OTS shot or a master shot, crossing the line, I never get confused, so I figured why would other people, if I can follow along? Is that the wrong way of looking at the 180 degree rule?

Brian Drysdale · March 30th, 2020, 11:35 AM

If you don't care, why are you wasting other people's time?

Pete Cofrancesco · March 30th, 2020, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay, well I have shot a lot of the things over the years and I go out and shoot a lot. When it comes to the 180 degree rule, I almost never got confused when it's broken, so I don't care if it's broken. I feel that the camera should be placed in the best spot for emotional perspective at that time, regardless if it's crossing the line or not, cause whenever I see it in movies, I am never confused.

The only time it's confusing is on CU shots of subjects, cause then they look like they are looking in the same direction. But if it's an OTS shot or a master shot, crossing the line, I never get confused, so I figured why would other people, if I can follow along? Is that the wrong way of looking at the 180 degree rule?

This isn't true. You just asked us about a scene where you thought the rule was broken when it wasn't. You are constantly obsessing over this rule. If you understood the rule or didn't care about it, you wouldn't be asking us questions. You would do well to get therapy to help you out of these mental road blocks. You are a very difficult, obsessive and obstinate person.

Paul R Johnson · March 30th, 2020, 11:41 AM

Well - you don't quite think the same as many people, so with the greatest respect, you are not the best person to work out how your audience think, because they might be like us, and fail miserably to get you to understand what and how we view your products. Do you actually understand this? Clearly the you say you place the camera for emotional perspective, in most cases, you seem to get this totally wrong most of the time, then tie yourself up in the why - when it's so clear to us, but not to you. We try to explain but you constantly misinterpret what we say.

I'm not sure that you understand how people view media products, only how you do?

You cannot understand the 180 degree rule because you don't respond the same to the visual shock we get when to goes wrong. You are fixed on your movie making by numbers process. You don't have no gut reaction, or planning initiative to help you. You take advice from experts and idiots and are unable to process 'worth' when it comes to advice. You use the same phrases over and over again to the extent you are very predictable. "You've been told" and "so what you are saying" feature heavily and usually what you've been told is lacking context for accuracy, and you misunderstand what we're saying - over and over again. we tell you to forget the rule, and you fight against it, then we point out why and you agree, but then expand on it and ask again, will this work and we say no? Ten minutes later you're back on it again.

We cannot cope with this - it's frustrating and after a while, it's a bit insulting to us - having advice continually questioned and ignored - then, you come back a week later and ask again, and get the same answers. People often ask questions and you totally ignore what they say and just push and push your points waiting for us to say - "OK Ryan, you're right, everyone else is completely wrong. Go ahead with your idea and Spielberg will move over and offer you his seat".

Brian Drysdale · March 30th, 2020, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

whenever I see it in movies, I am never confused.

The difference is that they know what they're doing and you don't.

Pete Cofrancesco · March 30th, 2020, 11:55 AM

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-...t-dont-take-it

Quote:

They don’t feel able to act upon the given advice (fear, lack of self-confidence, etc)

People take the chance of asking advice, hoping that someone else will say what they’re thinking and validate them.

People can feel good about discounting the advice they disagree with by deciding to themselves that the giver of disagreeable advice is stupid and they know better anyway.

Seems like the over riding reason Ryan wants to make his own movie is because wants to do things his way, he doesn't want to be told what to do, and yet he lacks the ability to do things so he resorts to asking questions because but doesn't want to give up control and follow advice. So we get these circular conversations.

Ryan Elder · March 30th, 2020, 12:28 PM

Oh it's just I was told on here before to use my own gut reactions and my own instincts. But is that not good, and I should not trust my gut and listen to what other people say then? Sorry, I don't mean to come off as rude on here. I greatly appreciate all the advice and feedback!

It's just whenever I try to do things my way, I am told it's wrong, so if I don't use some kind of established guide, then what should I do?

Brian Drysdale · March 30th, 2020, 12:34 PM

At the moment you're at the level of a first year film student making their first film, your gut needs to learn learn its feelings.

Paul R Johnson · March 30th, 2020, 12:35 PM

YES!!!!! Gut reactions, instinct, that positive feeling - but you don't trust your gut, and get positive reactions to the worst bits.

Pete Cofrancesco · March 30th, 2020, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh it's just I was told on here before to use my own gut reactions and my own instincts. But is that not good, and I should not trust my gut and listen to what other people say then?

You seem to use advice/rules only when they support what you want to do. Or you make it an either/or choice, with no in between.

Ryan Elder · March 30th, 2020, 01:27 PM

Oh okay, well the reason why I sometimes do not use in betweens, is because a lot of times, the in betweens have problems, or holes in them, so I figure you can either do it one way or another, cause all the in betweens each have their own problems as well. Unless I am not seeing something.

When you say I only use advice when it supports what I want to do, if I am taking advice when it doesn't support what I want to do, won't that create problems though, cause I am trying to apply a method that will support what I want to do?

I think what my problem is though, is that in the past, when I get to the location to shoot, I will abandon a lot of the storyboards, because I feel that those shots will be tougher to get, so let's just improvise and do these shots instead... But by abandoning the better shots, I have chosen shots that were easier to get on the fly, but they end up being emotionally incorrect.

So I feel I need to resist that temptation to change shots, and just go with what I had originally I think. Or at least that is what my gut tells me, is to go with the originals cause the are better than changing everything on the fly.

March 30th, 2020, 01:36 AM	#796
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? I wouldn't try doing that, since you don't seem be comfortable about the 180 rule in the first place. This has been much discussed in another thread, including when breaking is dramatically effective and that doesn't mean just showing a new perspective. Getting the basics right would be a good start.

March 30th, 2020, 02:44 AM	#797
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Okay thanks, but that is why I ask questions about it and want to learn more about it. I see other movies break it and wonder when it can work and when it cannot since there are shots where I want to, but not sure if it's acceptable or not. The movie High and Low does it to show new perspectives, and recently saw it broken in Parasite, so that makes me want to learn more about it...

March 30th, 2020, 02:58 AM	#798
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Sorry, given what you seem to have been missing in the simple scene we've just been discussing, you still can't do the basics. You're trying to run before you can even walk. Note that quite a few of the crossing the line shots in major feature films are mistakes or trying to solve another problem, but the only way out is to cross the line. For example, they have to shorten s scene.

March 30th, 2020, 03:48 AM	#799
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Ryan - perhaps it would be best to try and go out and shoot a few things where you do, and don't cross the line - then review what you shot. Simple things - shoot some traffic footage, or kids playing in the park, or skateboarders on a proper site, or dancers - or anything really where people move. Then see which jump on you, and which work. Don;t even think about 180 degrees just direction of travel and where they're facing. The snag here is we all instinctively know when a shot works, or doesn't. We can even predict before we shoot with some certainty, but you seem to lack something here.

March 30th, 2020, 11:14 AM	#800
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay, well I have shot a lot of the things over the years and I go out and shoot a lot. When it comes to the 180 degree rule, I almost never got confused when it's broken, so I don't care if it's broken. I feel that the camera should be placed in the best spot for emotional perspective at that time, regardless if it's crossing the line or not, cause whenever I see it in movies, I am never confused. The only time it's confusing is on CU shots of subjects, cause then they look like they are looking in the same direction. But if it's an OTS shot or a master shot, crossing the line, I never get confused, so I figured why would other people, if I can follow along? Is that the wrong way of looking at the 180 degree rule?

March 30th, 2020, 11:35 AM	#801
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? If you don't care, why are you wasting other people's time?

March 30th, 2020, 11:41 AM	#803
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Well - you don't quite think the same as many people, so with the greatest respect, you are not the best person to work out how your audience think, because they might be like us, and fail miserably to get you to understand what and how we view your products. Do you actually understand this? Clearly the you say you place the camera for emotional perspective, in most cases, you seem to get this totally wrong most of the time, then tie yourself up in the why - when it's so clear to us, but not to you. We try to explain but you constantly misinterpret what we say. I'm not sure that you understand how people view media products, only how you do? You cannot understand the 180 degree rule because you don't respond the same to the visual shock we get when to goes wrong. You are fixed on your movie making by numbers process. You don't have no gut reaction, or planning initiative to help you. You take advice from experts and idiots and are unable to process 'worth' when it comes to advice. You use the same phrases over and over again to the extent you are very predictable. "You've been told" and "so what you are saying" feature heavily and usually what you've been told is lacking context for accuracy, and you misunderstand what we're saying - over and over again. we tell you to forget the rule, and you fight against it, then we point out why and you agree, but then expand on it and ask again, will this work and we say no? Ten minutes later you're back on it again. We cannot cope with this - it's frustrating and after a while, it's a bit insulting to us - having advice continually questioned and ignored - then, you come back a week later and ask again, and get the same answers. People often ask questions and you totally ignore what they say and just push and push your points waiting for us to say - "OK Ryan, you're right, everyone else is completely wrong. Go ahead with your idea and Spielberg will move over and offer you his seat".

March 30th, 2020, 12:28 PM	#806
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh it's just I was told on here before to use my own gut reactions and my own instincts. But is that not good, and I should not trust my gut and listen to what other people say then? Sorry, I don't mean to come off as rude on here. I greatly appreciate all the advice and feedback! It's just whenever I try to do things my way, I am told it's wrong, so if I don't use some kind of established guide, then what should I do?

March 30th, 2020, 12:34 PM	#807
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? At the moment you're at the level of a first year film student making their first film, your gut needs to learn learn its feelings.

March 30th, 2020, 12:35 PM	#808
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? YES!!!!! Gut reactions, instinct, that positive feeling - but you don't trust your gut, and get positive reactions to the worst bits.

March 30th, 2020, 01:27 PM	#810
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Would using a star filter for cinematography be too weird? Oh okay, well the reason why I sometimes do not use in betweens, is because a lot of times, the in betweens have problems, or holes in them, so I figure you can either do it one way or another, cause all the in betweens each have their own problems as well. Unless I am not seeing something. When you say I only use advice when it supports what I want to do, if I am taking advice when it doesn't support what I want to do, won't that create problems though, cause I am trying to apply a method that will support what I want to do? I think what my problem is though, is that in the past, when I get to the location to shoot, I will abandon a lot of the storyboards, because I feel that those shots will be tougher to get, so let's just improvise and do these shots instead... But by abandoning the better shots, I have chosen shots that were easier to get on the fly, but they end up being emotionally incorrect. So I feel I need to resist that temptation to change shots, and just go with what I had originally I think. Or at least that is what my gut tells me, is to go with the originals cause the are better than changing everything on the fly.