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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old November 27th, 2008, 11:36 AM   #1111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Oliver View Post
Looking through the posts within this thread it strikes me that people are prepared to buy a high quality camera (EX1/EX3) but when it comes to the item that matters, i.e. the media on which to record your creative work, then we are looking for a cheap alternative?

I am sure that none of the pro users are going to tell their clients, "actually I have used a low cost media so I will reduce my fee"...
Vincent, I think you may have missed some of the points made in this thread. If SDHC simply meant exactly the same workflow as SxS then you may have a point, all that SDHC would mean would be that the overall total capital cost of the system - camera plus memory - would be somewhat less. (Well, quite a lot less, but...)

But it means far more than that. It conceivably means the difference between a user having to download in the field to free up card space, and being able to do it under more controlled conditions, because they can afford a lot more card space.

It conceivably means the difference between having to download material to give to client, and being able to simply treat the SDHC cards like tape or disc and hand them over in the way you would with a tape. I've seen 16GB cards (50 minutes) for well under £20 now - to my mind that's consumable pricing, and the pricing is likely to get better still.

It also begins to mean that all the active archiving issues (with the possibility for error) go away. Shoot, download to NLE (with all the tapeless advantages), then put the card on the shelf.

Conceivably, true SxS may be a trace more reliable than SDHC, but my gut feeling is that that difference is completely blown away by the chances of something going wrong come download time - especially if it's being done in less than ideal conditions. Take that sort of human error factor into account, and SDHC may actually be far MORE reliable overall than SxS.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 12:53 PM   #1112
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David's got a good point. I am organising a foreign travel shoot that will be costed on taking plenty of SDHC cards for shooting with no hassle of carting around MBP and hard drive. The cards cost the same as HDCam tape now so client pays without hassle.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 12:59 PM   #1113
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David,
I cannot second your oppinion up to the end. While I see your point, Vincent had made it clear that quality and security only comes at a price. Professionals would be dumb to pay more if something really went for less. Quality and security only come at a prime - how much that has to be is another question, I agree.

Put blantly but without the slightest offense - SDHC is tinkering compared to SxS. Given the situation with new Kensington readers or supply from other manufacturers - how do you want to base a business or profession on such a business model? I am not talking about how well SDHC works but just supply of necessary material - the reader.

SxS is not less secure then SDHC when it comes to transfers of raw material into an NLE.
However I'll go as much Solid State as possible within my workflow and replace the HDD of my laptop with a SSD 2.5" format. Transfers with that "container" are much faster then to an HDD. And if you have nothing but hourlong takes to record, take more Sxs cards or an HD recording unit. The possiblities are endless. But "cheap" and "low price" must not be a deciding factor. Either the client pays for what he expects or let somebody else do the job.

Just my 0.02.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 01:18 PM   #1114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wilkinson View Post
There are some (two) early reports on the web that this might work for all but overcranking in a similar way to the Kensington. More information will come no doubt come soon (or just google it).

Expresscard Multi-card Adapter
According to information on the website, this adapter can handle 17MB/sec of write speed. Theoretically will work for HQ mode, if paired with a Class 6 SDHC Card that worked with other readers...
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Old November 27th, 2008, 01:33 PM   #1115
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....and, for those of you with EX1 (and with the 1.11 firmware on it) the best bit is that the web reports suggest THE DOOR WILL CLOSE....:-)

If you have an EX3 this is irrelevant of course - as the launch firmware and door arrangment with more headroom means you are good to go anyway :-)

It's very early days (and I stress this is not my information/personal experience) but it's out there in the ether. You guys (that can) please try and get this Delkin Adapter. Test it out to confirm and let us know.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 01:59 PM   #1116
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It would appear that Steven Thomas reported that Delkin adapter was a no-go - or am I misreading this?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/934247-post103.html
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Old November 27th, 2008, 02:31 PM   #1117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Raskin View Post
It would appear that Steven Thomas reported that Delkin adapter was a no-go - or am I misreading this?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/934247-post103.html
You're talking 2 different adapters. The Delkin Expresscard 34 6-1 does work.

Expresscard Multi-card Adapter

The Delkin adapter you link to is the CF card to Expresscard adapter. It does not work.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 02:46 PM   #1118
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Ronn, is this the correct link to Delkin adapter that is reported to work?
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Old November 27th, 2008, 02:50 PM   #1119
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Yes. See Chris Hurd's msg #1109.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 04:47 PM   #1120
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OK just got the best deal possible on these cards for people in the Uk and Europe.


Ebay number: 220308876354

Price was $34.95 plus only $25 postage to the UK for two cards. Ordered and paid for.

Delkin in the UK want to charge £50 an adapter plus postage!

Sorry if I have broken any rules in showing the ebay seller. If I have I am sure it will be removed!
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Old November 27th, 2008, 05:18 PM   #1121
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Hi Everyone,

As I mentioned earlier this month, it's been difficult and very expensive to obtain Kensington cards in Australia, so I tried out quite a few different cards before I found two that worked. They were functionally
identical to the Kensington, ( I can get 50fps in PAL out of the Sandisk Ultra II), with the exception that the card protuded out 2mm or so more, so wouldn't allow the door to close on the EX3. But as a stop
gap measure they worked fine, and were certainly cheap enough, that if I made a mistake it was no biggie.

After using them successfully on a large number of shoots, as well as stress testing them in the studio, I posted that they were working.

But it started to bug me that the cards were hard to get in and out of the camera, and I thought there had to be a better solution.

Since that time I have been corresponding with several manufacturers in HK, China and Taiwan about creating an Expresscard 34 adapter which would mount the SDHC card internally, using a Push-in Push-out
mechanism, so that the SDHC card would be enveloped and allow the EX1 door to close. I first tried to contact the manufacturers of the cards that I already bought (see previous posts) from HK and the Philippines.
Their designs were always a smidge too thick for the EX1, so I had to look further afield. I found a manufacturer who was able to produce them.

We've already been through the prototype stages and are at the last stages of testing the working cards. Iím going to put it through the same tests that we did with the Philippine and HK cards. I don't expect
any problems as the electronics are the same as the Prototypes. They are tooling up their line to produce in quantity, as soon as we give them the go ahead. If that all goes well we should be in business no
later than two weeks from now. Just in time for the big man to come down from the North Pole.

On another note, their CEO wanted to know what I was planning to use the card for, and when I told him he wanted to know why we weren't getting him to build a 16GB and 32GB Expresscard using the
PCI interface, which means it will be a direct replacement for the Sony SxS, with similar performance, ie 60fps overcrank. He was surprised we were so keen on using what he called a work-around card.
I'd given up on finding a card after trying the Lexar and the Transcend. They just couldn't keep up with HQ. The first working card should arrive within the next two weeks.

The Adapter card will obviously be selling for more than the Generic cards, but will still be less than the Kensington. I don't have pricing on the memory cards yet, but I'm sure they will be very attractive.

If anyone is interested in either of these cards please send me an email, and I'll let you know when they are available for sale,

Regs
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Old November 27th, 2008, 05:30 PM   #1122
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Hi Ross I would more than likely be in for a couple of them when their ready.

Good luck with it and I hope you make some good money out of it. Small lines are my business but I didn't know where to start on this one, but I am glad someone had the foresight to do something about it.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 06:28 PM   #1123
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As I'm on EX1 the shorter reader is essential, so I've just done a quick order from ebay.
It should arrive by 10th Dec.
So far I've ordered 4 Kensingtons, got two and two will be coming.
Now I can send two Kensingtons back, because 4 cards ( DElkin and KEn) will do for me.
( I'm also having 2X8 and 1X16G SxS)
If anyone needs 2 Kensington lemme know before next Tue. ( Both cards are unopened in the original pack)
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Old November 27th, 2008, 06:32 PM   #1124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Herewini View Post
On another note, their CEO wanted to know what I was planning to use the card for, and when I told him he wanted to know why we weren't getting him to build a 16GB and 32GB Expresscard using the PCI interface, which means it will be a direct replacement for the Sony SxS, with similar performance, ie 60fps overcrank. He was surprised we were so keen on using what he called a work-around card.
Ross - this news is potentially MASSIVE, and I'm sure there will be a queue of people lining up to thank you and that CEO.

I'm not sure it will actually be a DIRECT replacement for Sonys SxS, since I doubt it will have the 800Mbs speed rating. The implication is that absolute download speeds are unlikely to be as high and it may not work with future SxS cameras which need even higher data rates than an overcranked EX.

For many, many people I don't see that being any sort of practical issue. P2 pioneered solid state, this announcement could be the start of it coming of age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Kraft
While I see your point, Vincent had made it clear that quality and security only comes at a price. Professionals would be dumb to pay more if something really went for less. Quality and security only come at a prime - how much that has to be is another question, I agree.
How I see it is that reliability depends on two factors, absolute technical ones and human factors. An aviation analogy may be that planes may crash either due to mechanical failure or pilot error.

For what we're talking about I suspect the chance of failure through human factors is much greater than the chance of failure through card failure - be that SxS or SDHC. If SDHC changes the workflow enough to significantly reduce human factor errors (such as inadvertantly formatting the wrong card during a hasty field download) my argument would be that the OVERALL system reliability is improved, even if the chance of mechanical failure is very slightly increased.

Just for once, it could be that a cheaper system gives greater overall reliability than a more expensive one.
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Old November 27th, 2008, 07:12 PM   #1125
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Hi David,

"For what we're talking about I suspect the chance of failure through human factors is much greater than the chance of failure through card failure - be that SxS or SDHC. If SDHC changes the workflow enough to significantly reduce human factor errors (such as inadvertantly formatting the wrong card during a hasty field download) my argument would be that the OVERALL system reliability is improved, even if the chance of mechanical failure is very slightly increased."

That's what really drove me forward. I wanted to have a reasonably costing solution to allow me to shoot a wedding on Saturday and Sunday without having to to a download until Monday morning.

Downloading on a Saturday night at 1am felt like Kevin Bacon in Apollo 13, when asked what the big "NO!" on a piece of paper covering LM separation button was...

JIM LOVELL
- What is that?

JACK SWIGERT
- Oh... I was getting a little punchy and I... I didn't wanna cut the LM loose with you guys still in it.

Once it's deleted.... don't like to think about it.
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