Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

It's listed on B&H's site. $6,500. I wonder if the price will lower before it's in stock?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1004182-REG/sony_pxw_z100_4k_handheld_xdcam_camcorder.html

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

No detailed description neither yet on B&H. I'd expect that first, then if there is a price drop, it likely would be a $300 price drop to match the PMW-200.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

You also need to factor in a lot of XQD cards unless you are only shooting a min or two. At 4k 60P it will be about 12mins on a 64G card. The FDR-AX1 with XAVCS is about 50 mins on a 64G card. The PXW-Z100 will likely need the fastest cards but the FDR-AX1 will likely work fine on the slowest cards. Another big price difference.

Ron Evans

EDIT: Sony could of course come out with large XQD cards that don't cost more than the camera !!!! An SSD attachment is an obvious needed accessory or an Odyssey7Q if the SDI will pass 4K to it.

EDIT2: The AX-1 comes with a 32G card I think so for me I would need an additional 2 x 64G cards for what I want to do. putting the setup at just over $5000, about what I paid for my NX5U and FMU128 with the package deal when it first came out. I wonder if Sony will have some deals on cards when these come out !!! The difference at that time was the NX5U was only $200 more than the AX2000. There is a big difference now between the FDR-AX1 and the PXW-Z100.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Ah but the elephant in the room is whether the image approaches the BM Production Quad HD cam. Do not have samples to compare. Will the Z100 work for narrative work with a Letus as appropriate? So, far the answer seems to be no followed by maybe.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I think you may be comparing apples and oranges. If Sony introduces a 4k version of the NEX-EA50 or VG30 it would be a different story. Even a FF VG900 version !!!! With Sony's push for 4k product across the lineup I think that will come too. A couple a years and the whole lineup may be 4k including the cell phones!!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Glen, I should qualify my statements as I often mistakenly type conversationally on the internet...

Resolution by itself is not bad nor a gimmic, but it does have its limitations of perception and practical use.

The marketing of resolution is a gimmic. Just look at the still photo world as a perfect example. Consumers around the world equate megapixels = image quality. We in the industry know that image sensor + great optics = image quality. Resolution is just size, almost like a container.

I would rather have a 10mp camera with huge pixels and superb lens than a 20mp camera with smaller pixels and an o.k. lens. Upsampling is so advanced nowdays that it might not even matter if you needed to print huge.

When I read that users are willing to forgo DR and light sensitivity to get the higher resolution it is in my opinion that the marketing is working. I also believe that high quality 1080p uprezzed to 4k and played with 4k would be hard to tell apart for most viewers. I am trying to look at this from a business point of view because when I look at my own upgrade path from SD to HD five years ago, it has its ups and downs. Many folks have not accepted Blu-ray into their worlds. So for the most part, my HD distribution is internet based. The web is hardly the medium to be upgrading to 4k for. But everybody has different work needs.

I could go on but I do not want to sound like a curmudgeon! Technology is great. 4k will be here, it will just be playing to a smaller audience than HD or even SD (DVD) imho.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I agree on the upscaling of Bluray players and TV's. For my theatre shows the DVD and Bluray on my Sony system do not look THAT different !!! I know what to look for and can tell immediately but a normal viewer may not see that difference especially if they only see once. BLuray has the advantage of not only resolution detail but normally there is enough room for LPCM audio. The overall experience is different. Maybe when people get 4K TV's they may get Bluray more and upscale !!! The blank media cost difference is now getting lower too.

4K for me is purely as a media that I can crop from just like I did when I first got my FX1 that for 2 or 3 years either shot SD or was used to crop a DV image from in the edit. It would be nice to use the PXW-Z100 10bit 4:2:2 image for this but the cost for long record times is really not viable and I expect the XAVCS of the FDR-AX1 will be just fine !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I disagree. Filmic is not just shallow depth of field as on those cams.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

My response was the fact that one is a small sensor camera that comes complete and ready to shoot and the other a large sensor camera that requires one to still buy a lot of stuff before it will shoot anything, does not do 50/60P, short battery life and really needs external power etc. In my mind they are targeted at totally different markets.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

If you supersample the 4k output to 1080p it might be pretty awesome. In the real world of network TV commercials & music videos where they use Sony F55/F65 super sampling to 1080p or 2K for cinema projection is standard behavior. it's kind of like getting 4 pixels per real pixel in a 1080p sensor. Kind of :-)

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

How does the Z100 or EX1 lens compare to the mid-range 24-70mm and 70-200mm constant aperture zooms from Nikon or Canon? I'm not seeing a lot of innovation in in-camera focusing and metering aids, at least not the extent of features that the portable monitor companies are offering.

In the press release, the DR is obscured. We're hoping it's not 1/4 that of an EX1/EX3 . I was willing to pay more for a 1080p60 machine with an improvement in DR that would allow improvements at +6 dB gain coupled with higher bitrates recorded internally, such a I-Frame-only 600 Mbps or long-GOP 70-100 Mbps. Nikon blew away everyone in fall 2007 with their 12 MPixel D3 high-DR camera that didn't increase the pixel count over its predecessor, the D2X.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

This might not be a great analogy but having this XAVC codec behind this small 1/2.3 sensor is like having an industrial stregenth 18 wheeler semi truck transmission behind a Toyota Corola engine.

I suppose that this XAVC CODEC board (circuit chipset) was developed to be installed in many future 4k cameras. It might be done that way to save costs on manufacturing. (one chipset to be used in a very wide range of XDCAM and Handycam cameras with proper firmware crippling for lower cameras)

600 Mbp/s, 4:2:2 10 bit? It's cool but wow,...It just seems excessive for a small single bayer sensor.

CT

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

To move to 4K required a new codec for Sony. Mpeg2 can't do 4K, H264 didn't have a standard 4K profile until very recently. So Sony needed to come up with a new codec which they did in XAVC. XAVC has a large degree of future proofing. It can do almost any frame rate, it can be I frame or long GoP, it can adjust it's encoding structure on a frame by frame basis and include that information about how the frame was encoded in the metadata so the decoder adjusts correspondingly.

But 4K requires you to record 4x as much data as HD for a similar quality image. The bigger you make an image when you show it, the more important it is to keep artefacts to a minimum. As 4K is aimed at big screens, artefacts that might have been tolerable in HD may be objectionable on a big 4K screen. So, if you want to play in the 4K swimming pool your going to have to be prepared to drown in the 4K data. To put things into some perspective, when the EX1 was launched an 8GB SxS card cost $800 and held 22 mins. A 64GB T series XQD card costs $350 and will hold up to 25mins of 4K 25/30P XAVC (approx 250Mb/s - 300Mb/s).

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

This also gives grounds for a new Nanoflash based on XAVC. If that's down the line for Convergent Design, then bring it on!

64GB is the new 8GB for 4K, no doubt 512GB XQD cards are coming down the line as the codec for sure isn't going to change to H.265 anytime soon. (Plus, H.265 lacks High profile, 4:2:2, and more at the moment, making it only a delivery format, not acquisition)

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

At least for the FDR-AX1 that I am interested in is now on the Canada Sony site . There is however a lens spec difference I have seen repeated before though this time it is in the same document !!!! The features info states lens as 31.5 to 630, the spec section says 29.5 to 590 (this is the spec for the NX5U ) !!

Cannot find any info for the PXW-Z100 on the site yet.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Any idea if when this camera gets the XAVC-S update, will it record 1080p60 (50Mbps I think I read somewhere) at 4:2:2 10bit? Or will it drop it down to 4:2:0 8bit?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Tthe 31.5 lens spec is with Quad HD, which crops to get the smaller Quad HD width, the wider 29.5 spec (30 in some literature) is with full 4K width.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

New low cost N Series cards are coming. Check the link below

Sony Updates XQD Cards for 4K Video Capture Speeds

Rajiv

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

My info is that the 1080p60pi/50pi/30/25/24 can be recorded in 10 bit 4:2:2 at 50 Mbits in an MXF wrapper and even at 35 Mbits. But this isn't XDCAM, it's still XAVC - there's an 'XDCAM' logo on the Z100's left flank under the 4K, though. Hmmm.

I wondered if the XDCAM was there as a sort of 'interrim format' for compatibility, but if it's an XAVC thing and the compression is coming from LongGOP (like XAVC-S) then I think it's the AVCHD which is being seen as the interrim solution - and that comes 'next year' too.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

According to the article, the N cards are only good for the "consumer" FDR-AX1.
But if you update the Z100 with the lower bit rate codec offered next year, perhaps they can be used?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

There's 3 types of XQD card: N, H and S (Normal, High and Superhigh?)

The N series write at 80 Mbits per second, read at 125 Mbits per second. The H series read and write at 125 Mbits per second, and the S reads and writes at 168 Mbits per second.

So, yes, XAVC-S on the N cards, XAVC on the S cards (and I'm sure there will be others over time).

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I wonder if the N series would still be within tolerable limits for S&Q on a PMW-200. In any case, cheaper XQD cards means the XDCAM folk would have an easier time moving off of SDHC.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

For those who buy this PXW-Z100 4K camera on experimental basis and are targeting 1080p flavors in XAVC/XAVC-S or XDCAM mpeg-2 (50/60/30/25/24) the N Series card may be sufficient and can buy in plenty. Still they can buy a single S series card experiment with 4K until they are ready to move up to.

Rajiv

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I think you mean MBps not Mbps The 4K XAVCS is 150Mbps so will be no problem for the N series at 80MBps. And should also work for 1920x1080 on the PXW-Z100.

My interest is in the FDR-AX1 because I want the long record times so the 64G cards will be great. I need to record over 2 hours 30 mins so with the included 32G card, 2 x64 cards will do it for me. Wish the AVCHD feature was initially active as that would give a simultaneous record backup. We will have to wait an see what is actually in these cameras when they appear in a few weeks for the FDR-AX1.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Uuurgh - yes. I'm trying to tweak the review, edit the video and keep up with 'actual work' and so my CaPiTaLiSaTiOn is going to pot. Mb is not MB by a factor of 8! Hmm, there is such a thing as 'too much' caffeine.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

We understand Matt. Any info you can give us is really appreciated.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Could be the post of the day... mulling this over as I have my coffee.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

The new UHS-II SD cards will be even faster with maximum possible write speed up to 312MB/s.
Toshiba announces first UHS-II SD cards as world's fastest: Digital Photography Review


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7411/9...81c8afd9_o.jpg

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

UHS-II is what MicroP2 is currently using, but that is not cross compatible with SDHC or SDXC.

Capacity and Speed are both needed for 4K, and how not to do it was JVC's 4 SD card solution.

512GB XQD cards are what are going to have to come down the line if 4K and long-length acquisition (like concert video) is going to be viable without endlessly swapping cards.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I think a useful addition would be a XQD adaptor in the camera to SSD housing for long record times much like the hard drive for the EX family. Even with the FDR-AX1 this may be a better alternative to lots of XQD cards that I would consider.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Jack, look no further than the Sony F55 and the Blackmagic 4K Cinema cameras which both have global shutters on CMOS chips.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

But not separate chip arrays for R, G, and B.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Well, you can still find 3-CCD cameras out there.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

If you had a Sony F55 with (3) 4K Super 35mm sized sensors that would make a very big and expensive camera!

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I know the Sony has the Frame Image Scan that's suppose to mitigate CMOS Distortion and judder. Is this what your calling the global shutter?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Frame Image Scan is Sony's implementation of a global shutter. The entire sensor is read out at the same moment in time. Zero Jello, skew or flash banding.

You can't have a 3 chip prism for S35, the size of the prism would make it impossible to use PL or DSLR lenses and the longer the flange back distance the harder it is to design a decent lens.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Sounds good to me. I just returned from the F65 Operator Class @ the Sony DMPC. The next day I was fortunate enough to have a one on one session with a Sony engineer hand on the F65. He answered any question I had. It was really very nice and informative visit. Seeing the original 4K footage of the famous one candle scene in oblivion on a true 4K projector was also very cool.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Why did the discussion suddenly go to my signature? I don't expect S35x3, I expect 2/3''x3 or 1/2''x3. And I only expect 1080p. 4K Global shutter is of course only possible with S35 and a single sensor. (that and CCD cameras are out of my price range)

It might take another 6 years or it may never happen for Global shutter to come to small sensor 4K, let alone 1080. There is a lack of focus on Global Shutter tech for mass production.

Also, the BMCC lacks 60p. Huge letdown on Blackmagic's part.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Does anyone knows if the Z100 will have pre-record buffer?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Alas no cache record.

No histogram either.

Nor is there a proper 'Clock' option for the TC (though you can jam TC).

We're having to balance 'hot hatch' and 'family sedan' here. If only Top Gear did a show on cameras.

(and there's always the F5 LOL)