Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Assuming you mean the Z100, Phil Goetz posted some clips shot by Alister Chapman earlier in this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...ml#post1824317

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Yep, sorry for the typo - corrected.

Unfortunately the file is not available under that link any more :(

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Yes it is. I just checked. :)

Scroll to the bottom of the page and click on the block of text under the words "Sample Footage".

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Thanks Michael. Just downloaded using IE; my Chrome somehow couldn't see the archive.

The good news for me as Vegas Pro user is that those mxf play well enough on my PC to be edited! I tried the same with the AX1 sample (the goose), and it wasn't possible (that could only be played back using the Mercury engine in PP CS, which I'm only trying out now).

PS. What may be the reason those mxfs crash my VLC? I updated it to the most recent version recently, and it plays fine with my 220 Mbps I-frame nandFlash files... Any special settings required?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Am I the only one who thinks this footage from Austin looks noisy? At 50% it looks pretty good but at 100% that fine grain moving around gets really annoying.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

No. Scaled to 1080 it looks really nice, and very sharp, but at 4K it bothers me too.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Why Is the GPU acceleration implementation so poor in VP12?!!

While the I-frame is playable (and just barely editable) in Vegas, the Long GOP version is crawling at 1-5 fps with GPU load at 19% max. The same clip plays full speed in PP CC, with the same Quadro 4000M loaded at up to 100% most of the time!

Is the PP's Mercury engine patented, or what?!!

Piotr

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

This is a disaster for both the Z100 and AX1, because to see all the details in 4k one must watch from a very short distance - and this is when the noise roars its ugly head...

That said, it's not as bad as in the EX1 at HD....

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I always thought the EX1's noise was at least acceptable, and if you really didn't like it, shoot -3dB in bright conditions. I will admit though that the footage scaled down from these cameras actually does look perceptually cleaner than the EX1 at 0db.

However, using a consumer sensor that is basically a cell phone sensor (The Xperia Z1 is the exact same sensor) will have major drawbacks such as this. What we need next are native raster sensors (4096x2160 preferably, and not limited to 16x9) and super high resolution prisms. IMHO, bayer and supersampling only works on S35 and above.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I think the sensor in my AX1 is the same as the one in my HX30V. Characteristics are similar for low light. I just did a shoot with my NX5U, the AX1 , CX700 and my wife used the NX30U. It was a school dance show so the lights were flashing all the time, dark, red etc etc a real challenge and I usually leave even my NX5U in auto exposure with spotlight setting. The CX700 was set AE shift -1.0ev as was the NX30U and also the AX1. There were no max gain settings for the CX700 or NX30 but I set the AX1 to max 21db which it stayed at more most of the show !!!! To my surprise looking at the data code for the NX30 and CX700 afterwards they too were at 21db most of the time with occasional 24db !! Scaled to 1920x1080 the AX1 had a better image than the CX700 with no more noise that I could see but the interesting effect of the increased resolution was the faces were never blown out by the lights. None of my other shows will be this dark so I am happy !! Not sure if it will be as good as I want for cropping as this brings out the grain too much at these levels. In good light it works fine.

As to my shots of the Canada geese I can get it to play close to real time in Edius Pro 7 and will play in Vegas Pro 12 if preview is set to draft good. Good enough to cut by I think. My PC is an i7 3770 running WIN 7, 64bit with 16G RAM, lots of hard drives.

The AX1 is not a replacement for my NX5U.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I think your viewing methods are suspect to say the least. Of course the noise will be more noticeable when scaled 100%. Just remember when making a comparison to an HD camera that assuming you have an HD monitor when you scale the 4K to 100% you are looking at an image 4x larger than the equivalent HD, so I would expect to see noise similar to the equivalent HD camera.

When viewed on a large 4K TV, the footage looks very good and noise levels are perfectly acceptable at 0db and +6db. As well as Austin, we had one in Toronto for the Vistex 4K event. This was feeding a 65" 4K Bravia and looked very nice, even close up and most people felt the images looked very clean. It's only when you go above +6db that it really starts to suffer as the noise reduction introduces a lot of extra smear and smoothing that tends to soften and blur the image.

Ron: Resolution won't make the difference between faces blowing out or not. That's dynamic range.

Zack: Who says this is the same sensor as the Experia Z1? I doubt that very much, if you've seen the pictures from the Z1 you'll know the Z100 images are far superior, much better dynamic range. 4096x2160 is not 16:9 it's 17:9. But of course any sensor with a similar pixel size will have largely similar performance, that's the laws of optics and physics at work. I wouldn't expect miracles from a micro sized prism at 4K, the added diffraction and dispersion effects will restrict the useable aperture range and negate any benefits over a bayer sensor. In addition we are already pushing the limits of current lens technology with these high resolution small sensors. Larger sensors and bigger pixels are still the way to go.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Which is why I think a 4K EA50 or FS700R replacement is coming down the line. APS-C may be a good compromise for people unable to access Super35.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

[QUOTE=Alister Chapman;1824559
Ron: Resolution won't make the difference between faces blowing out or not. That's dynamic range.

[/QUOTE]

What ever the reason it works for me as an unattended camera running in semi auto even at high gain settings.

I also agree with Jack that there will be a larger sensor camcorder some time next year. Maybe using the RX10 sensor which would be great and maybe then a replacement for my NX5U. The NX3 is nice but not a big enough difference for me to change my NX5U. I want the longer zoom with good low light so an APC sensor may then require a very large lens with too shallow depth of field for my uses.
Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Could someone help me with what is the right way for editing the XAVC clips in PP CC? As per the screen grab below (coming from one of the on-line tutorials), it should be there to chose but - unlike the other listed - I cannot find it anywhere. So I'm using the RED 4k format for my sequences instead, but is there a better way?

Disclaimer: I am a complete newbie to PP; always used Vegas Pro :)

PS. Perhaps the 30-day CC trial has some limitations?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Alister,

If you are talking to me, please let me explain: using Vegas with those mxf XAVC clips, I can use the option "Scale output to fit the monitor" and - on my 50" plasma hanging some 1m in front and above me - I'm then watching gorgeous HD material. When I uncheck this option, the plasma shows an almost pixel-to-pixel image and there is a lot of black splotches in the picture, which I call noise.

Similarly, using Premiere Pro CC, if I set the scale of Export format to 100 (with Export Preview set to HD, as I can't set it to anything higher), I'm getting quite nice HD. Blowing it up 4x (400%) I can see the same noise as in VP, and this is the real clip resolution!

What am I missing?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

There's no preset for XAVC, but drop an XAVC clip into an empty timeline and it will adjust the parameters to match.

If your using a 50" monitor and you scale 1 to 1 pixels then you are viewing the equivalent of a quarter of the equivalent to a 100" monitor which really is a very big screen. You wouldn't normally watch a 100" screen from just 1m away. It's like watching your 50" screen from just 25cm and I'm quite sure that that close you will clearly see any grain or other artefacts. It also assumes that your software/computer can playback full frame 4K and take a crop and process this in to an HD stream in real time without compromising the image quality.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

You're spot on, Alister - I tried to imagine 4x the area of my 50" plasma and came to the same conclusion; were it 100" and UHD, I would back away by another meter or two, which I did. Unfortunately, the black noise was still visible (in both PP and VP)...

Oh, I forgot about the XAVC preset: you're right the PP sequence will adapt, but somehow I cannot find a way to export 4k from PP (neither to a preview monitor, nor to rendered-out media... Please give me a hint as PP newbie :)

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Yeah, that's what I did in PPCC and it worked fine.

Alister, excited for your review of this camera. I have to ask, working with Sony, did you know the NX3 was coming out long before it arrived? If so, do you have any word on any other sony large(r) sensor cameras (eg. 1 inch or above) under $10k coming in early-mid 2014? Perhaps you are not allowed to say but I had to ask.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

No, I did not know about the NX3, but NXCAM is not a line I tend to be all that involved in. I have not heard any rumours of any more large sensor cameras, but that does not mean anything other than I don't know and if I did know I wouldn't be allowed to say.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Thanks for your response Alister. Are you saying that when I scale a 4K clip to 100% on my HD monitor that it's equivalent to scaling an HD clip to 400%? Trying to get clear on this… Remember that 4K is brand new territory for a lot of us.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

What I'm saying is that when you scale the 4K to 100% you are only seeing 1/4 of the image. This means your monitor is therefore the equivalent of 1/4 of a screen 4 times the size of your monitor. So when trying to evaluate the noise levels you should consider how big the image would be and adjust your viewing distance to match.

Consider the reverse, if you scale your HD down to just 1/4 of your screen it will appear to have a lot less noise, unless you view it very close up.

Piotr, you possibly can't export to 4K as you may not have a 4K codec installed. You cannot at the moment export XAVC from Premiere, this is supposed to come very soon.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I think it came in the October release...
Adobe Premiere Pro CC October 2013 Release

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Piotr, Vegas 12 will render to XAVC and XAVC-S. I mainly use Edius which will edit native XAVC just fine at full frame rate but not full rate for XAVC-S. Edius will mutlicam several tracks of XAVC on my PC so a lot easier on the PC than XAVC-S. I have used Vegas 12 to convert my XAVC-S files from the AX1 to XAVC and also to Canopus HQX they take a little time to convert but both files edit easily after that.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Well, even though the link provided by James indeed mentions exporting XAVC, and I'm working on a most recent version of PP CC - there is no such output format. The only 4K-capable output format is DPX sequence.

As to VP 12's capabilities of outputting both 4K and UHD (in XAVC or S-XAVC), Ron is correct.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Yes, Adobe talked about XAVC encoding in the press release, but it is still yet to be included in the software :-(

You can export 4K ProRes on a Mac plus DPX or H264 on both PC and Mac.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Well, actually - after much digging - I found it in PP CC, too. You must select MXF, and then in the codec tab, select one of the XAVC codec... But for S-XAVC, we still need to wait, I guess.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Well done Piotr!!!

I have been looking for this for ages. I did look under MXF, but only at the presets, never looked under the codec settings. Thanks!

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Alister , do you know if the HDMI output from the FDR-AX1 is 10 bit 4:2:2 like the PXW-Z100 ?

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Can this be edited in proxy mode, then swap?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I have not tried proxy mode as I never use so not sure of the time Edius would take to create the proxy. Decoding XAVC-S is the issue. I have proxy turned off on my user presets. May as well convert to HQ and have a usable file. Prefer to edit native or convert to HQ. I may see the use of proxy on a laptop with limited disc space compared to a HQ file but other than that I do not think it is of much use.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Hi,
I would need rather urgent for an upcoming shoot your recommendation on which XQD Card to use with the PXW-Z100 recording in 4K at 25p.

On Sony's website XQD? Memory Card | Sony they present two alternatives: The pricy S-Series or the low-cost N-Series for 4K shooting.

Of course you can always go for the expensive alternative and be on the safe side. But maybe someone here has really made the test and found out, that also the N-Series cards are reliable and working in 4K.

Thank you so much.
Best, Jürgen

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

For 60p at some 600 Mbps, Sony says the S-Series is "recommended" (not even "a must"). But for 25p at some 220 Mbps, I'd say the regular XQD card should suffice...

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Alister,

I cannot take part in the event you will be holding at Malvern, but please come back to us to sincerely and frankly report how the Z100 is doing in the noise department, basing on true 4k watching experience. So far, I learnt that the I-frame XAVC clips are easy enough to edit (in both PP CC and VP12 which I'm using) on my current PC, while the Long-GOP clip from the AX1 (S-XAVC) is a hog to decode, so - especially in VP12 - it crawls at a poor 3-4 fps:(. But unfortunately I don't have the means to actually connect a Z100 to one of those UHD Bravias that support it, and see the PQ with my own eyes...

Cant wait for your opinion!

Piotr

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Hi Piotr,
thank you very much for your reply. The "regular XQD-card" would mean, the N-Series?
There is also the H-Series (also with 125 MB/s)...
It is confusing.

Who has tested the different cards for 4K? I would also assume, that the "N-Series" (125 MB/s) will work in 4K 25p. But a confirmation by someone, who acutally used it, would be very helpful.

Piotr, where can I find Sony's recommendation which you quoted above?

Thanks a lot,
Jürgen

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Juergen,

At this site: PXW-Z100 (PXWZ100) : Features : United Kingdom : Sony Professional

- they say (in the "Features" tab):

"* XQD cards have a write speed of up to 800Mbps. The use of S Series cards with 180MB/s writing speed is recommended"

Unfortunately, my knowledge ends here (and is purely theoretical :))...

Piotr

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

From our debate (and my personal tests) on the Z100 vs. AX1 cameras (or rather the XAVC vs. S-AVC codex), my conclusion so far is that - with limited budget for upgrading all the other components of the 4k edit/delivery chain - the Intra Frame codec of the Z100 is not only better in terms of color resolution (4:2:2 10 bit vs. 4:2:0 8 bit), but surprisingly it's also easier to edit with PP CCC or even VP12 on my current editing PC (just a modest 2600K@4.2GHz with the GeForce 580 GPU). However, I still have one important question to those more knowledgeable here:

- assuming 10 bit color support by the graphic card and monitor (for full WYSIWYG experience), is Adobe PP CC fully 10-bit aware, in both editing and rendering/encoding? I'm asking, because Vegas Pro is not, afaik. It''s important for those trying to choose between the 8-bit AX1 and 10 -bit Z100 whether they'd be able to push the material harder while grading and color-correcting...

Anyone, please?

Piotr

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Piotr, no. In the Vegas project settings, for the editing side of things you could choose to work in the 8-bit 16-235 video space, but by switching to full range 32 bit floating point at the time of rendering you'll get whatever the format is. If it was AVCHD that would be 8 bit 4:2:0. In the case of XAVC, it would be 10 bit 4:2:2.

You might be thinking that 10 bit is truncated because the 0-255 scaling for the histogram/waveform monitors don't change, but in full range 32 bit mode, it's working with full precision.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I have to agree based on my limited exposure with the footage as well. Edited the clips in V12, exported to 4K MP4, high profile@ 250Mbs. Viewed on a Panasonic 4K set in 4K and the noise levels are very high, like some weird Instagram filter was applied. Even viewing on smaller screens had the same results: 27" iMac (2560x1440), 17" laptop screen (1600x900), 55" LG HDTV (1920x1080) and on my Galaxy Note 3 screen (1920x1080).

I'd like to see raw XAVC on a 4K monitor/display for final judgement. I was really looking forward to obtaining this camera, but if it's that noisy in good daylight footage, I'll wait out.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

The first camera I got was crazy noisy. The replacement is much better. At 50% it looks great, at 100% it looks like HD at 200%. I haven't been able to look t it on a 4K display yet. Alister says that it looks fine. The noise may only mean that 4K on a 2K display is just not gonna work at 100%.

The HD that it shoots is superb.

I shot with the camera all day today and going through the shots there are a couple that knocked me out. The camera can make a beautiful image. Some shots were noisy, others much cleaner. It could be a keeper. Still trying to sort it out.

The CA really sucks.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Hi Tom, it's been a long time since we last exchanged posts together:)

Thank you very much for this explanation; I assume (knowing you) that it's 100% accurate. Funny thing is that as a long time VP user, I mainly was drawing knowledge from the SCS Vegas forum, and the established opinion there has always been VP truncates to 8 bits no matter what...

Piotr

EDIT: Actually, it's even better than that; I just checked the piece I rendered out using the XAVC codec in the newest build of VP12, and it is 10 bit 4:2:2 even though I didn't switch to 32-bit precision before rendering... Would that be possible?