Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Thank you Guys for you help

I better wait for the Next Z500 or Z700 ;)

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

When the light is OK, for example normal daylight, even if overcast the Z100 produces a remarkably good 4K picture. It is very low noise, very high resolution (much higher than HD), not over sharpened or enhanced and with good colorimetry. It does have very slightly less dynamic range than a PMW-300, but overall there is no way an upscaled PMW-300 is going to look as good at 4K as a Z100 under normal conditions.

In poor light then maybe the PMW-300, upscaled may be better overall than the Z100, but really in this situation neither is optimal and there are better options.

If you only want HD, don't want to have the flexibility that 4K can offer for re-framing, image stabilising etc then the PMW-300 is undoubtedly the better camera.

Is mainstream 4K a long way off? Maybe if you think 3 years is a long time. Netflix are to start 4K distribution next year. You can buy a surprisingly good 4K TV right now for less than $999. Even a good quality Samsung 4K TV can now be had for around $3,200. 40% of all US cinemas now have 4K capability and there are over 20,000 4K projectors globally. YouTube is available in 4K, Jeopardy is being shot in 4K along with at least 14 other main stream US TV series. Most digital photographs are more than 4K and Sony and others are looking at photo player apps and devices for 4k TV's that can show your digital snaps with amazing clarity. I think 4K will become mainstream much quicker than HD did. The biggest barrier to HD was broadcasting bandwidth. A massive percentage of the content we watch these days comes to the home over the web, largely bypassing the bandwidth bottleneck. It's predicted that in another 6 years time, online delivery of television will become more common that over the air broadcasting.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Well, Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune are Sony Pictures properties so if anyone's getting the F55 as Studio Cameras, they would no doubt do that.

Broadcast may even skip 1080p60 FWIW. The rarity of 60p on web delivery needs to be remedied, but no one in any web consortium seems to be interested in 60p delivery and just say 30p, 25p, and 24p are fine.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Lots of wonderful information on this camera. I personally only wish the low light aspects of it were better. Here is why. I believe that anyone starting to produce any long format documentary that they want to find a buyer for in say 3 years from now- and thats a short turn around for some docs- would most certainly benefit at the negotiations for the rights to that property if its originatied in 4K. Having just gone through the process of selling a property for distrobution, it was made clear to me that having 4K material will put dollars on your side of the table. If your project started today on 1080 you would certainly be driven down on the price at the time of sales. Its not even relavent what the topic is. Its one of the first hot points when you go to sell it.

I would certainly buy the consumer version , due to longer record times on the current cards, if I were starting a doc today. The buying party will take hammered, noisy, grainy 4k over great looking 1080 anytime.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I think the buyers will take engaging material over camera specs any day, and i think it's misleading to claim otherwise. The fact is, there is a vast amount of good doco material in circulation shot on cheapish cameras. The idea that film makers need to jump through yet another industry hoop to qualify for broadcast is absurd.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

And yet I wish my large library of previously shot footage was all taken in 4k. Even my EX1r footage looks dated and obsolete to me now.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I really can't say I can move to 4K without a defined colorimetry (the final release version of Rec. 2020), a good bitrate to capacity ratio (Shooting straight XAVC will require 512GB cards for longform recordings) and the broadcast community to move over to accept it and start broadcasting in it.

Plus, we've pretty much reached the limit of capturing photons to squeeze every pixel out for this camera and cameras like the Lumia 1020. Any smaller pixel density will be exclusively for the consumer market and would totally not benefit the professional in any way, since we're losing too much sensitivity.

Also, I'd much rather see the push for global shutter CMOS fabrication pricing to go down. It took an arm and a leg to use it on the F55, so tech should improve in that direction.

Again, it's the Z1U days of 4K, and that's how I'll view it until we get that EX1 of 4K.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I don't know the answers but it's hard to believe we'll be transitioning to UHD in 3 years, or that the reason we'll be able to is Netflix, YouTube or the internet. If I was to judge quality today, the latter 2 (at least) would be the WORST quality. Over the air and Blu-ray are the best quality for mainstream consumers. Somebody has to pay for all that broadband arriving at the curb.

Just my opinion, but I don't forsee a transition to UHD as much as I see gradual rollout of non-synergistic, diverse, niche UHD products entering into the mix of blended coexistence with everything else that's still out there and hasn't gone away, SD, HD, DVD, Blu-ray. (DVD still outsells Blu-ray by a wide margin.)

But I honestly feel it's going to be an even harder task for UHD, here's why:

1.) 4k acquisition is perfectly justifiable, makes good sense.

2.) But as a display, UHD viewing benefits are mainly with very large displays, or very close up viewing. <- That is a problem for mainstream acceptance. Many are perfectly happy with HD, or those who prioritize convenience over ultimate quality, or won't be viewing in home theater man-caves.

3.) HEVC (h.265) is twice the compression at the existing bit rates. So even though Rec. 2020 makes possible a wider color gamut as well 10 and 12 bit, what's going to arrive at the display is quite likely 8 bit 4:2:0 color.

4.) Already, many have been reporting that OLED 1080p displays are the winner when pitted against UHD panels displaying 2160p. OLED and plasma have better color purity than LCD. Better pixels trump more pixels at the sizes and viewing distances most consumers prefer.

One other gotcha...Gary Merson, the HD Guru is reporting that 2160/p60 will require HDMI 2.0, and that most current UHDTVs don't carry it. The bigger name brands like Samsung have announced future upgrade paths from HDMI 1.4 but other manufacturers may not.

As a display format, I think the uptake of UHD displays and transmission will be very slow and protracted, certainly not the deliberate transition as was the analog to digital switchover.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

All the same arguments came up in the mid 1990's when HD was on the horizon, yet in Europe it took less than 2 years between the launch of the Z1 and the arrival of full time HD broadcasting (via satellite TV) and a further 2 years before the majority of main stream programme commissions were HD.

Back then we didn't have the kind of internet bandwidth we have today. I have a 100Mb/s fibre connection for my home internet. This is being upgraded to 150Mb/s in the new year. That's enough for 3 simultaneous real time 4K/UHD HEVC streams. In many parts of Asia, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore etc similar speeds are common and the desire for everything hi-tech is hard to grasp (even toilets can be computer controlled with heated seats, auto closing lids and play music).

HD TV's are the norm now. In the future more and more new TV's will be UHD. Those wishing to buy a new high end TV will want to future proof their investment, so many will buy UHD TV's, rightly or wrongly, it's an easy sell for the sales rep, bigger is better. This will creep down to lower cost TV's until eventually UHD becomes the norm for larger screen sizes. Since the launch of HD the size of TV's in the home has increased. In Europe, pre HD a 27" or 32" TV was considered large. Now 42" is common, in the last 10 years TV sizes have doubled and continue to grow by an average 2" per year. TV's will grow to fit the quality of the images delivered to them. In addition home cinema installations are no longer just for the rich and famous and increasing in popularity.

The BBC Natural History unit is already committed to 4K capture. Many documentaries as well as drama are now being shot in 4K. As a big time stock footage shooter, I'm already looking at my HD library as having a now very limited shelf life. When HD came in my SD footage sales took a hit well before HD broadcasting became common place as programme makers wanted to future proof their productions.

Why UHD and not 4K? Simple - scaling. UHD is 4x HD, so any up/down conversion is really simple and most likely look better than the odd scaling from 4K to HD. In addition 4K at 17:9 would require letter boxing for HD or 16:9 viewing. UHD makes a lot of sense for broadcasters. The difference between 4K and UHD is only really the aspect ratio, 4K is slightly wider, but the resolution is the same for the given picture height.

It isn't going to happen overnight. It will take time, but happen it will and probably quicker than many expect as there are fewer barriers to UHD than there were to HD. I'm sure there will be many areas that will hang on to HD or even SD, but if you start at 4K you can cater for all.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I can't fault your logic for nearly all of that post, and fully agree, but I think it's important to draw a big distinction between acquisition and transmission/display.

For high value material with future value - and your stockshots are obviously a prime example - then the argument for 4K/UHD acquisition are obvious.

I agree that UHD makes most sense from a broadcasters point of view for transmission etc, for the reasons you say, but for ACQUISITION isn't 4K the better bet? (With the caveat that it's shot 16:9 shoot and protect?) If 4K is what's later needed, it's what's there. If UHD is needed, it's a simple crop at the sides, but no scaling. And if shot and protected 16:9, you know no essential detail will be lost - exactly the same as the early days of 16:9 in the UK, using shoot and protect to 14:9.

Shoot UHD, and if 4K is later desired, it's not then as satisfactory. It will also mean a crop (this time top and bottom) - but also a rescale as well.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I fully agree that for shooting, 4K makes the most sense, as you say simple crop to UHD. I was just looking at distribution and how 4K/UHD will creep in to homes in the coming years.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I haven't made arguments against UHD, I'm all in 100% for 4k acquisition.

But I am expressing the reasons why the uptake on the consumer end will be protracted and incomplete just as HD is, only this time the consumer doesn't have a federally mandated analog to digital switchover, isn't switching from heavy curved glass crt and rear projection sets, and will need larger panels or closer viewing distances to see benefits in the home.

Even Netflix have stated they expect the uptake from the subscriber base to be small in the near term, thus only a negligible affect on their bandwidth.

As these panels are shipping now with less desirable LCD display quality compared to OLED and plasma, are shipping without HDMI 2.0 which is necessary for 2160/p60, and are marketed that all your upscaled content will look better in 2160p, we really have seen that before.

To argue against the inevitability of the future is likened to "whistling past the graveyard." Definitely I'm not doing that here, but some skepticism is justified.

Let's see what happens, in the meantime, have a beer!

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I decided on the AX1 and have had it for a few days now from Crutchfield. I posted in the AX1 thread that I am having trouble rendering good quality blurays. Could someone please visit that thread and post some suggestions?

Thank you in advance,

James

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Now in stock at B&H.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Any ideas of how the Z100 compares to a non-sony camera like the HMC150?

Basically, I'm curious to see any updated info on this camera and how it compares to a couple other cams with regards to sensitivity (HMC150 & AX1 for reference). It's now officially out and it seemed like most of these statements I'm reading were done on pre-production models. I'm currently rocking a couple HMC150's for live event shooting and it's time to move on. I am wondering how the Z100 will compare with regards to sensitivity to the HMC150. I never really push the HMC's beyond +9db of gain (maybe 12db if absolutely necessary). With the BSI sensor on this camera, and Alister Chapman's note above that it gives a camera about an 8db boost, I'm curious how it stacks up against the older HMCs in this regard. For example, at 0db, which is more sensitive? And when an HMC150 is at +9db/+12db...what does one have to set the Z100 at to match that? And how is the noise at that level of gain?

I know the initial reports are that the AX1 and Z100 aren't the best in low light compared to the PMW-200, etc. but I need a camera with 60fps and a 3G-HDSDI out which leaves me with only the Z100 and the FS700 at this point. Does the Z100 fare any better at all than the AX1? Or is it the same? I'm hoping to get some updated info now that it appears both of these cams are available.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

In terms of sensitivity AX1 and Z100 are the same. I can't comment on comparison to cameras from other brands. I have used a production Z100 and it was no different to the pre-production units.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Alister did you play around with S&Q recording when you had the camera? The settings only seem to be available in HD mode, at higher resolution no S&Q. Is that correct? Thanks-

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

S&Q only works in HD, but you can shoot at 50 or 60p in 4K.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Thanks Alister. Does the Z100 have the focus distance readout in ft/m that I've found infinitely handy on other cameras?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

"Thanks Alister. Does the Z100 have the focus distance readout in ft/m that I've found infinitely handy on other cameras?"

It does.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Sweet!

Thanks Mark!

Hopefully now we'll start to see some test/comparison footage from this camera. Wish it had XAVC-S out of the box...oh well.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I had to send mine back to the dealer because there was so much noise in the image. I requested an exchange rather then a straight return because I figure it's got to be defective. If the next one is noisy as well I'll do a return.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Based on my playtime with the Z100 and a colleague's experience with the AX1, note that the Z100 is recording 10 bit 4:2:2 Intra, the AX1 is recording 8 bit 4:2:0 Long-GOP. I'm becoming a bit of a 10 bit convert as a result.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

One would expect a difference between 150Mbps LongGOP and 600Mbps 10 bit 4:2:2 !!! As far as noise from the sensor is concerned is there really a difference though. Because of the ramping on the zoom even in good light my AX1 will have a reasonable amount of gain compared to the NX5. Doesn't take much to make it go to 12db and at 15db one starts to see some obvious grain though not too unpleasant. I would really like to know if the HDMI on the AX1 is 10bit so that an external recorder could match or exceed the Z100.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Not necessarily. There is no reason longGOP can't be 4:2:2 and 10 bit, and in terms of general compression quality, then you can expect a longGOP system to be more efficient in terms of quality v bitrate than an I-frame only one.

Downside is increased processing power needed to compress and process - upside is the same quality at much lower bitrates (all else equal).

And 600Mbs is what XAVC uses in I-frame mode for 4K 60p. This codec allocates a given amount of data per frame, so increase the frame rate and the bitrate scales up proportionally. This is not true for longGOP codecs whose relative efficiency increases substantially with higher frame rates and progressive mode. That's because there is less change between each frame at 60p than 30p - less time has elapsed between them. It's reasonable to keep the same TIME interval (typically 1/2 sec) between I-frames, so going from 30p to 60p means the same no of I-frames per second, but many more difference frames. Since the I-frames are far larger in terms of data than difference frames, that's why a doubling of frame rate means a lot less than doubling data rate.

There's talk of moving to even higher frame rates, 120fps or even higher. If that comes to pass, expect to hear much, much more about long-GOP systems! :-)

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I understand David, but the FDR-AX1 is 8 bit 4:2:0 LongGOP, 60P at 150Mbps and the PXW-Z100 at the same 60P is 600Mbps 10 bit 4:2:2. I would expect a difference between these two. I believe next years update to the firmware will bring LongGOP to the PXW-Z100 and your comments will be absolutely correct.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

OK. The only thing I'd say is that remember for 4K, chroma resolution at 4:2:0 will be 1920x1080 - full HD luminance, in other words. Since there is debate about "will we actually notice the difference between 4K and 1080?", then will 4:2:2 at 4K really make much difference compared to 4:2:0.....?

Colour subsampling may have been pretty important in the days of SD and interlace, I'd argue much less so with progressive and HD, and less still in 4K days.

Of course, you may still argue that if you're getting a 4K camera primarily for HD - but with a cropping ability - you need the higher chroma/luminance ratios in the crop......?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Alister Chapman took the PXW-Z100 for a spin while in town for our workshop. The card had 25GB of footage but I deleted some of the files and left eight clips. I zipped it up and put it on media fire for you to download and try out in your own system. The video is of downtown Austin. Last weekend was winter. Yes. Winter only lasts one weekend here. This is it. Go to this page and scroll down. Download time depends on how fast your connection is. This file is 2.5GB.

Omega - Sales - PXW-Z100

I posted this in a different thread but saw there was a lot of conversation here too.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Holy moly, Thank youuuuuu!

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Only thing is the spec for XAVC-S is currently limited to 4:2:0 and 8 bit. If there is 4:2:2 10bit Long-GOP, it almost certainly cannot be in the XAVC-S spec. It would have to be a new XAVC-LongG spec.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I must have missed the info but is there a plugin I would use to view the sample PXW-Z100 clips using Premiere Pro CS6. I'm only use to editing FS700 (AVCHD) files and the DVCAM types files. So I'm not sure where to find the 4K XAVC codec for the PXW-Z100 in PP CS6.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Rovi produce a rather expensive plugin for XAVC in Premiere CS6 (PC Only). There is a watermarked demo version.
TotalCode for Adobe Premiere
Otherwise you will need Premiere CC which has XAVC support built in.

I really quite like the Z100. The colorimetry is very good and noise levels remarkable low when the light is reasonable. After shooting with S35mm cameras almost exclusively for the past couple of years it was really nice to get back to a camera with a 20x zoom. It isn't as sensitive as the new PMW-300 or an EX1 etc, but that is to be expected, it's about a stop less sensitive. In addition it doesn't have the dynamic range of an EX1, I would estimate 10 stops. For this reason the Z100 does not have Cinegammas.Like the PMW-300 it's nicely built and feels very solid in the hand. My biggest gripe is that the focus and iris response in manual is a little sluggish which is annoying and takes a little getting used to. I found it harder to precisely focus the Z100 than my F5 with a DSLR zoom as the deep DoF means that it doesn't snap in and out of focus as a camera with a shallower DoF does. The focus tools are OK with coloured peaking and image magnification which is just as well as you really do need both to ensure your 4K is sharp. I did end up with a couple of shots very slightly out of focus. With a bit more use I'm sure I could improve my focus technique with this camera.

It was quite shocking to fill a 32GB XQD card in just 15 mins when shooting at 4K 24p, although I'm kind of used to that with the F55 in 4K.

I have both a PMW-300 and a Z100 for a week and I'll be reviewing both in some depth as well as creating some picture profiles over Christmas.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Tested the latest version of VLC and it can play XAVC from the MXF file.

At 100% crop, I'm still not convinced about the noise levels, and the codec brings out the noise that is hidden by more compressed codecs. Specifically I looked at Clip0031.MXF and I'm very impressed by how the codec held up, but am very unimpressed by the grain.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

But VLC's XAVC playback is not optimised. It does not include the DPPS processing. Dynamic Picture Parameter Set, which alters the interframe encoding profile and decoding algorithm based on the scene and meta data stored within the stream. VLC uses a generic AVC decoder without interfame variable decode parameters, which is unique to XAVC and makes quite a difference to the image quality.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

First of all thanks for the pointer to the TotalCode plugin for PP CS6. I did in fact visit the TotalCode website and went directly to their purchase plugin page and noticed their blurb about supported codecs didn't mention XAVC so I downloaded and read their TotalCode fact sheet but it also didn't mention support for the XAVC.

However that could have been an oversight so to make sure I wrote them directly asking for an updated spec sheet for the PP CS6 TotalCode plugin that does state it has support for the 4K XAVC.

After reading your very informative article on the merits of using FS700 with the Sony AXS-R5 recorder I'm thinking that might be a better route for me to go for right now. I would just purchase the HXR-IFR5/AXS-R5 RAW combo and use that till the new Sony 4K style run and gun sized 4K cameras mature a little bit more.

However the PMW-300 looks like an awesome camera so I can't wait to see what you say about that unit. Perfect 1080p run and gun. I still want to be able to drop 4K XAVC files from the new Sony 4K handycams into PP CS6 so I will continue to pursue getting a solution there.

PS Alister if your ever in South Florida and need access to a Sony F65 for one of your various tests and comparisons I have a fully outfitted F65 available.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Douglas: Given the choice between an FS700 + R5 or Z100 I would go for the FS700 every time. It's a much more capable system, even though the ergonomics are less than desirable. Where the Z100 fits for me is as a companion camera to a large sensor camera for pick-up shots where you really need that 20x zoom and a deeper DoF.
For example I'm looking at the Z100 for my storm chasing shoots to act as a grab camera for the times where I only have seconds to get the shot. It would not replace my F5, just work along side it.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

That sounds like a great plan!

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Total Code is somewhat flakey with XAVC, so I wouldn't get too excited by it.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

It looks like it costs about 10 months of Adobe CC access. Doesn't seem worth it if CC supports XAVC.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Any place to download an Z100 I-frame 50p (or at least 24/25p) 4k clip, to give it a run in Vegas Pro 12? Or PP CC?