Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Hi Piotr,

It is always nice to talk to you friend. :-)

You expressed the question of whether V12 is "10 bit aware" to which the simple answer is that it has to be, inherently, to read and write 10 bit codecs like Sony XAVC, Avid DNxHD, Main Concept AVC high profile and others.

Then the question went to whether it truncates to 8-bit. Obviously it can't if it is to work as described above, but what if the 2 least significant bits were always zeros? In that case we would still be working in 10-bit but only using 8-bits. That's a little different then not being 10-bit aware. So let's describe the case that would apply and use XAVC 10-bit 4:2:2 in the example.

We know that for HD, rec. 709 coding uses SMPTE 8-bit reference levels 16-235. In Sony cams using hypergammas and log gammas, the color depth is much wider than that, up to 16 bit acquisition in some models.

With Vegas 12, in order to render greater than default 8-bit rec. 709 output, you select customize template from the rendering template, click on the tab for project, click the drop down for color space, and there you are presented with a choice of many, ACES, S-Log2, ADX 16 bit, DCI, CIE XYZ and of course...rec. 709. In order to have anything other than zeros written into the last two bits, you will need to render using the 32 bit full range option and choose one of the full range color spaces, not 709.

So Vegas 12 is certainly 10 bit aware, but whether you can view it depends on your monitor (8 bit rec. 709 most of them), and on your choice of acquisition and rendered codecs.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Tom - thank you for the perfect (as always) explanation; I've just become a better Vegas Pro user :)

Cheers, my Friend

Piotr

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Tom,

Just played with the available color space options, and with an XAVC clip on the timeline, there are 3 different places the choice you describe is given:

1. Project Settings: when pixel format is set to 32 bit fp (full range), the "View Transform" drop-down list becomes active and anything (including "off") can be selected. I guess one of its uses is when an S-log video is being edited, but our example XAVC is not this case

2. When Properties of a clip inside Project Media (or already on the TL) are accessed, one of the color spaces (including ADX-10 bit and various Sony S-logs) can be chosen; I *imagine* this is used to match color space to the project properties set as per Point 1 above, right?

3. In some rendering templates (like MC/Sony AVC, but not Sony XAVC), indeed a 10-bit color space (or anything different than the REC 709, for that matter) can be selected.

Now, I understand you're talking about the last of the above 3; but with color space selection lacking in the Sony XAVC render template, would it mean it's always encoded in a 10-bit color space by default, and regardless of the project pixel format being 8 or 32 bit?

Please explain :)

Piotr

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Almost had this answered before you asked the question. See if this helps, and be sure to read the link. :)

Piotr, refer to the link below. Sony Vegas Pro 12, supports the ACES workflow, and you should too. With Aces workflow, you are not working with RAW, but are working in the ACES color space which is in a virtual way, infinite and camera independent.

The 3 steps to the workflow are IDT, ACES and RRT.

For IDT (input display transformation), you go to the media properties for each clip, and set the color space, ex. Sony S-Log2 (5500k). You do this for each clip, thus allowing you to mix and match different cameras. This is the feature that makes possible the unwinding of the S-Log2 curve so that the image appears normal.

For ACES, and to enable viewing the unwound s-log, you go to the project properties, select full range, 32 bit, 1.000 (linear) gamma and ACES RRT (sRGB). This is what you will be grading on. Go to your first S-Log2 clip and add the Sony Levels plugin. Punch in gamma equal to 2.2, drag the slider for output end to 0.45, (the inverse of 2.2 gamma), and start your grade. For a rec 709 display, you'll be 95% there already. For your waveform display settings, make sure the box for 16-235 is unchecked.

For RRT (Reference Rendering Transform)
In this stage you select what the target color space is for rendering. Depending on the target color space you will lose information (ACES RRT 709). You choose this from the rendering template, customize template, project tab, color space.

So 1,2,3, done. That's a pretty good summary on how to work with ACES in Vegas. That should get rid of the noise because the color space is being remapped, rather than having the noise amplified by mathematical computations, truncations and low numerical precision issues. It's also going to show a full color gamut.

ACES – Academy Color Encoding Specification | Niwa

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I haven't found any function like Interval Record in the menus. Is there a way to get this to shoot time lapse in 4K?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Piotr, when you select an 8 bit color space (ACES RRT Rec. 709) from the rendering template, you are not telling XAVC to not be a 10 bit codec, but the render will only have 8-bit precision. The rec. 709 output will be mapped into the 10 bit space, so 16-235 becomes 64-940. And if you render a 10 bit number with 8 bit precision, it can only be as good as 8 bit, not better, thus the reason for using full range 32 bit floating point in your project properties. You only need to do that just before rendering, at other times during preview and edit you could use 8 bit, but would not be able to use the ACES RRT (sRGB) input transformation for viewing.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Good review of the Z100 by Alister...
A Tale of Two Cameras – The PMW-300 and PXW-Z100 reviewed. | XDCAM-USER.COM

I knew this camera wasn't the best in low light, but my personal excitement over this camera took a big hit after seeing the pics of him in front of the Christmas tree and it's subsequent noise performance hit just to get it up to the PMW-300's 0db sensitivity. Bah humbug! Not many other options with 1080p60 and 3GHDSDI out which is what we need, and while we don't need "the best" low light cam on the block, this is somewhat brutal. Bummer.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Yes, it IS a bummer.

I had high hopes for the Z100, especially after I found out the XAVC can actually be edited on my current hardware (+ 10 bit IPS monitor), and with my current software (thanks again Tom for realizing me the potential of Sony Vegas Pro 12 I never used before).

But after Alister's hands-on review, it seems the sensitivity and S/N of this camera is more or less equal to that of my old good EX1 without any gain capabilities - if the Z100 picture is only tolerable up to 12 dB, and at that being only as bright as the EX1 (or 300) at 0 dB :(

Alister - thanks for the report nevertheless; after all you are just a messenger...But the message to me is that I'm not ready for 4k just yet; I cannot tolerate low S/N and above all the noise of the Z100, and the FS700/Odyssey combo I just cannot afford.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

One should not be surprised with the performance. The sensor is cropped about 1/3 " from the full sensor to match the lens which came from the AX2000/ NX5U, it has more than 4 times the sensors of these AVCHD cameras as they have less than 1920x1080 pixel sources and interpolate to 1920x1080. A better comparison is to the small single chip Sony's like my CX700 or NX30U and it still has 4 times as many pixel sources as these and they too are back illuminated sensors. So the FDR-AX1 and PXW-Z100 are not likely to perform as well as these single chip Sony's and they do not!! In testing my FDR-AX1 ( which I think has the same sensor as in my Cybershot HX30V ) noise performance is just like this HX30V in comparison to the CX700 and NX30U 's is about a stop slower than these small Sony's. The FDR-AX1 is at best a stop slower than the NX5U at around 0 db but gets to be over 2 stops slower as it gets dark. The NX5U is about a stop slower than the EX1/3 so there is no way that the FDR-AX1 or PXW-Z100 is close to the performance of an EX range camera and will be at least 2 stops slower. If you want a camera with a 20x zoom that doesn't cost a fortune then about 1/3" is the sweet spot and there is likely no way around the issues with present technology. The RX10 gives me a view of where things may go though.

What I have found though is that shooting in HD mode is not as good as shooting in 4K and downconverting to HD with software. Noticable difference in my tests so I will not be using the HD setting. I used Edius Pro7 and used Lancsoz 3 for downconversion. Even at 21db it will provide a nice image better than the CX700 or the NX30 for the same scene which they would be at between 15db and 18db. ( dark stage set with few actors ) I had hoped to use the FDR-AX1 in 4K mode so that I could later crop in to HD but for dark scenes the noise then is too much. In good light this works and for minor cropping works great. For my uses as an unattended full stage camera it works but will look forward to a larger sensor version in the future. Even though it does not have the fancy iAuto modes of the consumer cameras just using AE shift at -1EV it has worked well on the 3 shows I have tested it with. All dark or flashing lights with most of the time it hovering at 21db gain but with the camera fixed and not moving of course !!! Maybe a camera with the sensor/lens from the RX10 with 10 or 12x zoom !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

There's the new Sony HXR-NX3 with three larger 1/2.8" sensors, 20x zoom, and IMO, an excellent price at $3,500.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Yes but its not 4K its really the replacement for the AX2000/NX5U with new sensors and different recording options like AVCHD 2.0 and just memory cards no FMU128 option. etc Nice camera but not enough for me to change my NX5U.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Just a general question ... when is this camera going to get its own sub forum, now that units are shipping ?

But a more specific question to current owners ....

[1] Is this camera worth buying as a replacement and upgrade to the NX5U? i.e Are you super happy with your purchase ? ** The samples on the net have underwhelmed me but again, 4K is not meant for a HD screen or YT.

[2] Is this camera just a waypoint to a better option 4K soon (maybe another brand), hence making this a poor investment. Any guesses ?

I am looking to possibly pick one up in the USA when I pass through in January, because what I want is better resolution, better data rate, better colour sampling (without a Ninja) in the same R&G form factor and 20X lens as my NX5U. Just looking for some comfort before dropping 6K.

[3] Which retailer currently has best price ? USA or Canada

Thanks in advance

Justin.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

The Z100 will not be as good in low light. The pixels are much smaller compared to the NX5U. We are a DVINFO sponsor, have the camera in stock and have some footage from the media card that you can download and import into your edit system:

Omega - Sales - PXW-Z100

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I have the FDR-AX1 and an NX5U and I do not think either of these 4K cameras are a replacement for the NX5U for a number of reasons. They are maybe 2 stops slower so if you work in a low light environment they will not be good for you as your main camera. Although switch layout is much same as the NX5U they do not have smooth gain switching. Expected on the FDR-AX1 like the AX2000 and NX5U differences I expected this feature to be on the PXW-Z100 but I cannot find in the manual so a major omission if it really isn't there. In good light in a semi auto mode the FDR-AX1 produces a beautiful image much better than the NX5U. PXW-Z100 with 10bit XAVC codec should have an even better image but will use memory at a fast rate !!! Just not viable for long form recording which is why I got the FDR-AX1.

Edited in Edius and downconverted to 1920x1080 with Lanczos3 the images are lovely even in low light and are better than the CX700/NX30U for example in similar light conditions with just a little more noise since it is about a stop slower than these cameras. Downconverted this way there is definitely more resolution in the image compared to the NX5U or the CX700/NX30U I use though .

I will wait to replace my NX5U until there is a larger sensor model to give better low light. Dream is a camcorder with the 1" sensor in the RX10. Not too big so that I can get good larger depth of field but big enough to have good low light performance.

Looking at examples on the WEB may not do justice to these camera as one has no idea how the video was prepared for the site. I find also that in camera downconvert is not as good as software downconvert using Lanczos3, another parameter that may degrade the images one sees on the internet.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I almost see this camera as a direct descendent of the Sony Z1 in a lot of ways.

When the Z1 dropped, we were used to the low light performance of the PD150/170 and the Z1 certainly was a light pig compared to those. The HD footage was decent - not great, but decent - but where it shone was downcoverted footage to SD.

I shot two international docs for broadcast on the Z1 - one in Germany and one on the Tamil Nadu coast of India. I LOVE the way the footage looks in SD. The HD? Well...

Then not all THAT long after, the EX1 rears it's head. We initially didn't embrace it, despite the leap forward in image quality and low light performance, due to the media cost.

I think we are again at THAT time in camera development where everyone is scurrying around to produce the best 4k camera they can at a price point that will actually get folks to spring for them, knowing full well that whatever decision they make will be obsolete in a year. Because frankly if 4k doesn't catch on and sell some units, there is no impetus to make cameras.

The answer to the age old question of "Do I buy?" is "Can I make money on it RIGHT NOW?"

I'm in the market for a 4k solution right now. I prefer the look of the footage coming out of the JVC but don't want to be tied to 4 SD cards mainly due to the fact I'm a run-and-gun videographer, not a filmmaker so media management scares me a little around multiple cards as a solo shooter. The Z100 footage seems underwhelming. The F55 would be an option if I had that sort of cash. I don't want a RAW workflow so RED is out...

It is a complicated market for sure. Some WANT RAW, some want an easily editable but decent codec. At the same time, everyone wants long run times and cheap media.

I'm just thankful I remember the days of BetaSP 30 minute loads at $30 per tape. Keeps things in perspective for me.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Manufacturers skipped 1080p60. Why ? The jump from 480i60 to 720p60 was enough to sell HD over NTSC/DVD since just about every cable TV channel is 720p60, including the best-looking channels such as NatGeo. Why wouldn't it be the same with 1080p60 on larger 75+ " displays ?

1080p60 wouldn't be any more of a light hog than 720p60 since most full-raster 1920x1080 sensors are down sampled to 720p60.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

It's more like broadcast standards skipped 1080p60. They're going straight to 4K60 or 4K120.

If they do choose 4K120 for broadcast, the F5 and F55 are already obsolete.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

4K120 WILL NOT happen as a broadcast standard.

No chance.

8k will happen first.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

RE: At the same time, everyone wants long run times and cheap media.

Agree Shaun. The most concerning issue with the Z100 right now is the record time of 4K onto the QXD cards. For quite expensive media, the record time is very short; too short to be practical.

I was not aware of the JVC at the time of posting my original questions, but having looked up the specifications I can see their 4 SDXC cards is an interesting approach and offers better record times, but buying 4 of those cards at a decent size starts to add up too, especially if you factor in the breakage rate of those cards is high. (the read/write switch has always been a weak point).
** The 10x optical zoom is also a deal breaker, with the JVC as I manly shoot outdoors.

The Z100 will get a long GOP option if Sony keep their promise to release a firmware update (the Nx5U did not get much post release love...); but by Q2 there is likely to be other 4K options around.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Agreed. Some people proposed 120 Hz as some new, unifying frame rate. I don't know what they were thinking. 120 Hz isn't a multiple of 50 and it's too fast for shooting under fluorescent lights in 50 Hz countries. A 1/100 shutter and 100 Hz frame rate is as fast as you can go under those conditions. 300 Hz could be a unifying standard for 50 and 60 Hz video systems but that's too many bits and too much of a lighting demand for too little gain.

Certainly, people are looking at fast frame rates for sports, but there are practical issues to be considered. Higher resolution is much easier to solve.

The more immediate question is whether we should do away with the 1/1.001 frame rates (23.976, 29.97...) and go to integer rates (24, 30...) Sounds good on paper but how do you intercut legacy content while avoiding all potential glitches and errors?

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I'm thinking it would be digital cinema that would use 120 first to divide to future HFR frame rates. Broadcast would still be 4K60p.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

The math would be in the neighbourhood of 8x the potential bandwidth (before considering increased efficiencies due to duplicate pixels or suppressible detail and whatever is gained by h.265) in a jump from a maximum of 1080P30 to UHD/4kP60...

Not for a while...

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I'm really not convinced that we will see 4k 60p any time soon. We could right now convert much more easily from current 25/30fps HD to 50/60fps HD, but it's not happening and I don't think it ever will.

In my opinion and from what I'm hearing from broadcasters etc there will be an increase in the use and distribution of 4K at 24/25/30fps first. Later there may be some higher frame rate usage, but broadcasters and production companies etc are pretty scared of the massive files that this would involve for production and distribution. Heck most of them are scared of 24p 4K.

HEVC looks like it will offer similar bandwidth for 4K as for current HD. Higher frame rates means more bandwidth and where that would come from for traditional broadcasting no-one knows. Web distribution is a possibility.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

4K at 24, 25 or 30 will start on the web first, as Netflix is experimenting with that at the moment. Web is not the domain for 50p or 60p, so that's where everything's gonna start.

I will say that the F5, F55 and even this camera with 50p and 60p lays the foundation for that for broadcast. I do think H.265/HEVC will be in the next broadcast standard to deliver 50p and 60p.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I really do not like the slow frame rates so we will miss the nice smooth motion of interlace if we cannot get 60P. Personally I would prefer 60 interlace to 30P. I shot a few clips at 30P on my FDR-AX1 for a piece for final output to Youtube but nothing was really moving so it was fine !!!

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I too hope 50p and 60p come, and I bet when proper HDMI 2.0 comes that it will be possible, just not at 4:4:4.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

For broadcast, I don't think you are going to see 4:2:2 4k right out of the gate either... any bits they can throw away without the end user complaining will be discarded... 4:2:0 at 24/25/30 is my early prediction with 60 as a possibility...

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

I understand Ron's want for 60 frames as an option for motion smoothness but I think we have seen the last of interlacing... interlacing was designed for the hardware of the time. Current panels are exclusively progressive scan.

Yes... I PERSONALLY want UHD at 60 fps at 4:2:2 but if that is IP delivery and clogs the entire internet... well...

I'm quite prepared to be realistic and pragmatic... roll out what you can as you can and build infrastructure for scalable roll-out as technology and infrastructure allows.

Heck, even downsampled 4k/6k to 2k/HD looks better than most HD sourced material...

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

My hopes for 4:4:4 4K 60p are more for computer monitors than broadcast, but for sure we are using 4:2:0 for any type of delivery in the near future.

However, the expectations of Rec. 2020 and Deep Color can't be met with 8bit 4:2:0. Closest thing is the F55 or F65 to capture color close to the Rec. 2020 space.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

People are increasingly watching content on mobile... the set-top box in the living room is on life support.

The iPod generation wants to CARRY their content, not watch it in stunning quality.

DVD Audio never caught on because MP3s meant you could carry your entire catalog of music on something SMALLER than a deck of playing cards...

Video streaming is the next logical step.

Not saying I LIKE that... just saying it is a reality that is working AGAINST us ever seeing 8kp240 4:4:4 at 12 bits on-demand in stunning quality...

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

To those thinking 30p can't handle motion, try using 1/40th shutter. It's fluid, natural without the soap opera effect.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Mobile streaming is currently near-impossible in HD due to ridiculously low bandwidth caps. (at least in Canada)

This is the same argument with Rolling Shutters moving from CCDs to CMOS.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

What ever the shutter speed the slow frame rates all have the same problems with panning the camera. Judder in the backgrounds or in the subject if moving fast and zoomed in too close. Only higher frame rates can resolve these issues. If the camera is stationary then they capture motion acceptably.

Ron Evans

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

That is only at all true at the acquisition stage, even then it's far from all the story. (Even in an I-frame only system you can apply higher compression ratios to higher resolution frames.)

Move to long-GOP (which transmission etc will almost certainly be) and it's nowhere near the case for framerates. Comparing (say) 30p to 60p, the idea is to keep the same time interval between I-frames (say, every 1/2 second) and just double the number of difference frames. Since the bulk of the datarate is in the I-frames, and there's less difference between frames 1/60sec apart than 1/30, then 60p transmission needn't involve a much higher datarate than 30p. Similar story for 120p - for transmission.

It would be pointless to formulate a 4K transmission standard that is limited to 30p - the standard should allow for up to 120p. (But at least 60p.)

And just because that's what the standard says, doesn't mean that is what everything has to be. As example, if you have a 720p/50 standard, it doesn't preclude 25p transmissions of cinema films etc. A 4K120p standard would still allow for lower framerate transmissions - 30, 60p or whatever.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

They want to carry their content AND watch it in stunning quality haha

Codecs will shape everything. RED is using their codec to stream 4k @ under 2.5MB/s to their REDRAY but obviously they won't be the ones to change that on the broadcast end. The other concern is how hardcore of a compression are they using for H265. It will require a lot of power to just unpack and that could make streaming to some modern devices in 4k very difficult or ridiculously resource consuming.

But again, not like any tech company is complaining, another thing to market, and we will be the ones feeding the frenzy.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Tom, what is the magic formula behind it? I'm asking out of curiosity, but also because I'd like to try adapt it to my 25p video...

Cheers

Piotr

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Hi Piotr,
The idea is to strike the right balance between staccato like motion and smearing. That balance should attempt to smooth stuttery, strobing frames and replace them with natural motion that doesn't go too far toward smearing or ghost trails. It's just an artistic preference, try it! As you know, faster shutter sharpens frames, but a certain amount of blur during motion or panning looks natural, cinematic. Too slow with the shutter speed blurs too much, causing ghosting trails or smear. 1/40th is just right, works for handheld as well as tripod.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Fair enough; so it's a matter of experimentation rather than a strict formula to derive the best shutter speed for smear-strobe balance.

Considering there is a limited set of shutter speeds, I guess one should look for similar results with 25p at 1/60th, right? Of course not in 60 Hz countries...

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Not speaking for all cameras but Sony has ECS mode (extended clear scan) on the EX1, PMW350 and others, that allows you to set a shutter frequency inbetween the normal choices of 1/24, 1/30, 1/60th etc.

Re: Sony launches PXW-Z100 4K Handheld XDCAM
 

Took delivery on Friday…shot full-tilt 4k 60p in my sunny back yard and was a little underwhelmed. Not sure why but even at 0 gain, the image was rather noisy. Did a lecture video (1080 30p) indoors with the usual terrible light and needed +18 gain. Shot some interviews at 1080 30p with lighting and 0 gain and then tested my green screen studio which I could achieve proper levels with 0 gain and 180 deg shutter.
None of these were critical projects and I shot b-cam with my 1Dx which rules in low light so it was my unofficial "real world" test of the camera. Having done similar shoots the week before with my XF300 I must say I'm not impressed. I was expecting a significant improvement in IQ with good lighting but knew the low light would be the weak point. Not sure at this point…

Anyhow, other things I miss from the Canon…WFM, face-detect AF, and an LCD that can flip to right or left side, ability to choose Kelvin numbers for WB.

Some things I really like about the Z100, zoom controls are super smooth and variable top rocker is nice. On-off switch (compared to the Canon slider), Lens variable aperture with zoom not as extreme as Canon, no lens cap to lose, 3 lens rings, much better color rendering than the XF.

With the beast of a codec and the 4K sensor it sure seemed like a good idea on paper…gonna give it a little more time. I'm hoping I am screwing something up somewhere! And just to clarify my reason for wanting 4K…I am generally a 1-man-band. Shooting at 4K then "pan and scan" in post would be very useful for the type of work I do. I also do a ton of green screen work and the added resolution should result in cleaner keys…the XF was quite amazing…just looking for the next level. We'll see!