What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?

Ryan Elder · February 24th, 2020, 02:39 PM

Yes I remember how people told me about lens. I turned it off and it's all good since then.

I was using the martial arts footage to do color tests. It was not the video I gave them. I was using it as a location example, to do my own tests.

Well in the Resolve tutorials they say in order to get a look, where the background is a separate color, they say to use the qualifier effect in resolve to separate the skin tones from the background.

Now it was said on here to choose locations that look good in the first place, but I thought the qualifier could still help some.

I guess I just don't understand that if lighting is important, and to forget about color grading, than why do other movies bother to grade at all then, if it's all about the lighting and performances and story? Why do those movies bother to grade in post then if that doesn't matter and it's about story, lighting and performances? Doesn't grading in post help too?

What if I produced and directed a whole movie, with no grading, or at least no skin tone separation in post? If the story and acting was good enough, will it really not matter? If you want the movie to get into festivals and actually be worth the budget spent, will people look at it and feel that the lack of post grading is an issue, even if the story, acting, and lighting is good?

Brian Drysdale · February 24th, 2020, 02:56 PM

If you don't have the story, great acting, lighting, good camera work and sound you won't even get into festivals because no one goes to watch a movie for the grading effects, because that's what orange and teal is. You can have a well graded film with a tough look without going for an over used effect.

Ryan Elder · February 24th, 2020, 03:21 PM

Okay thanks. I just don't want to get everything else right, such as the story and acting, but then in post, have people say the color looks bad, cause I didn't care enough about it, or pay enough attention to it, compared to everything else.

Paul R Johnson · February 24th, 2020, 04:26 PM

Ryan - you just don't get it. Grading is done to as perfect a product as possible - like mastering in audio studios. Nobody would master a recording that contained wrong notes. get the basics right for goodness sake, then apply the tiny improvements. You have everything around the wrong way,

They're going to notice the stuff we do, but as EVERYONE has said - you MUST get the basics right or they won't even watch it. The public is not even supposed to know what grading even is!!!!

Pete Cofrancesco · February 24th, 2020, 04:40 PM

He’s still in the planning stage and he’s worried about the grading! The story is so salacious and unpalatable it got him banned from a writing forum.

Josh Bass · February 24th, 2020, 04:43 PM

That may have been the forum’s “diplomatic” reason. Seems weird...movies have been made with content like that before (whatever it was), dont know why that would get someone banned.

Ryan Elder · February 24th, 2020, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

He’s still in the planning stage and he’s worried about the grading! The story is so salacious and unpalatable it got him banned from a writing forum.

Well I thought I would plan it till post. What I can do is hire a DP and art director to help with the color and leave it to them then, and forget about grading in post, until then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass

That may have been the forum’s “diplomatic” reason. Seems weird...movies have been made with content like that before (whatever it was), dont know why that would get someone banned.

Well I posted some of the script to get opinions on it, and then after I did that, I got a message saying I was banned because of the content of the script. Maybe they just didn't like the type of material.

Ryan Elder · February 24th, 2020, 09:51 PM

Well I did a test with the car headlights in front of me. I can get my legs exposed enough for the camera, but not my face. The legs are good though, if I shoot at 1/50, f5.6, so the DOF is not too shallow and the ISO at 1600.

So that's the settings I need for my legs to be exposed, but my face is still too dark. For a master shot, where you see a whole character, the headlights will not work if they attached to a car perhaps, since the actors lower body will be lit a more than the upper body and face.

John Nantz · February 24th, 2020, 11:24 PM

Options:

#1. Run the car front wheels up on some blocks of wood and use high-beams

#2. If #1 isn't high enough, put front end on jack stands.

Block rear wheels of course.

Brian Drysdale · February 25th, 2020, 01:55 AM

Of course car headlights (if fitted to the car0 won't light faces, they designed for lighting the road. You're meant to be testing to see if the lights themselves are suitable. As mentioned earlier, you should've sat down for your face test, If suitable you should buy some headlights from a car breaker or check out if they sell sealed beam lamps at the auto part syore.

BTW you'll need some car batteries to run them, The breakers yard could be a cheap source.

However, unless the scene is short, I would tend towards power, other than batteries,

If there's no power available from nearby buildings, I would check out the generators, park it on the other side of a building, with a 100ft ((or longer if needed) cable run of heavy duty cable to the Lights, The larger towed generators used on building sites or outdoor events aren't that loud and if shielded behind buildings they may not be picked up on the sound, You can ask the plant hire company to run their kit as a test.

I would also check out audio software for removing any remaining generator sound in post, The sound recordist records a reference track for this software, so it knows what to remove. It's not my department, but a fussy professional recordist was happy doing it with a noisy small generator.

Ryan Elder · February 25th, 2020, 01:59 AM

Oh okay thanks. Yes I think the headlights will work, as long as they are not on the car yes. I think I would need a few of the on stands to light the actors evenly.

As for removing the sound in post, whenever I've tried doing that in the past with background noises, such as furnaces, not allowed to switch off, or things like that, a good portion of the audio quality in the dialogue went out with it. But as long as it will be acceptable still.

One thing I mentioned before though was using 1000 watt lights for lighting. A 1000 watt headlight is 8000 lumens. A car headlight is only 700 lumens. Wouldn't this mean that a 1000 watt light would be brighter than a car headlight or no?

Brian Drysdale · February 25th, 2020, 02:15 AM

Higher wattage mains lights will usually be brighter than car headlights. Since you've got the figures I'm not sure why you're asking the question.

There are a number of battery powered LED lights that you can hire from plant hire companies, they won't be designed for photographic work, but in the context of a thriller they could be interesting.

For example:

Paul R Johnson · February 25th, 2020, 08:13 AM

Remember that optics apply to lighting as well as lenses. If you look at at old fashioned arri Fresnel. The photometric data shows it is very bright when on narrow angle but quite dim on fully wide. The intensity of the actual light source can be quite meaningless if it’s an isotrophic point source. As soon as you concentrate output in one direction the figures change!

One thought on your script and the banning. Forums are wide and classless containing a huge variety of people. If your script content troubled them then would not your movie do so too? If subject matter limits audience groups is that good?

Ryan Elder · February 25th, 2020, 11:01 AM

Oh okay thanks. When I did the car headlight test, I stood in front of the car and tried to go at the distance, where the lights seem to be the brightest on me, unless that was the wrong angle to go?

Well I wanted to make a script that I found interesting, and struck a cord as well. Cause if I make a script that is too 'safe', I felt there is a good chance it would be forget-able, especially if it's a micro-budget indie film, from a newcomer.

So I thought if I produce and direct something that struck a cord, it would leave more of an impression after in comparison. But I've also been a fan of darker stories usually as well.

Brian Drysdale · February 25th, 2020, 11:27 AM

You have to know the audience that you're aiming for, so if you're going for festivals, you may be limited to those for a particular genre.

From what I've heard so far, it doesn't really leap out at you. I've caught a few minutes of a low budget revenge movie on the horror channel called "Nude Nuns with Big Guns" and it pretty much does what it says on the box, so leaps out at it's intended audience. I gather it was the subject of one of the largest copyright lawsuits in California. I didn't know there was a sub genre called nunsploitation, but think of priests as gangsters dealing in drugs and you get some sense of the film.

To stand out in that crowd you need a really strong one line hook and I'm not sure you've got that.

February 24th, 2020, 02:39 PM	#271
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Yes I remember how people told me about lens. I turned it off and it's all good since then. I was using the martial arts footage to do color tests. It was not the video I gave them. I was using it as a location example, to do my own tests. Well in the Resolve tutorials they say in order to get a look, where the background is a separate color, they say to use the qualifier effect in resolve to separate the skin tones from the background. Now it was said on here to choose locations that look good in the first place, but I thought the qualifier could still help some. I guess I just don't understand that if lighting is important, and to forget about color grading, than why do other movies bother to grade at all then, if it's all about the lighting and performances and story? Why do those movies bother to grade in post then if that doesn't matter and it's about story, lighting and performances? Doesn't grading in post help too? What if I produced and directed a whole movie, with no grading, or at least no skin tone separation in post? If the story and acting was good enough, will it really not matter? If you want the movie to get into festivals and actually be worth the budget spent, will people look at it and feel that the lack of post grading is an issue, even if the story, acting, and lighting is good?

February 24th, 2020, 02:56 PM	#272
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? If you don't have the story, great acting, lighting, good camera work and sound you won't even get into festivals because no one goes to watch a movie for the grading effects, because that's what orange and teal is. You can have a well graded film with a tough look without going for an over used effect.

February 24th, 2020, 03:21 PM	#273
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Okay thanks. I just don't want to get everything else right, such as the story and acting, but then in post, have people say the color looks bad, cause I didn't care enough about it, or pay enough attention to it, compared to everything else.

February 24th, 2020, 04:26 PM	#274
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Ryan - you just don't get it. Grading is done to as perfect a product as possible - like mastering in audio studios. Nobody would master a recording that contained wrong notes. get the basics right for goodness sake, then apply the tiny improvements. You have everything around the wrong way, They're going to notice the stuff we do, but as EVERYONE has said - you MUST get the basics right or they won't even watch it. The public is not even supposed to know what grading even is!!!!

February 24th, 2020, 04:40 PM	#275
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,997	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? He’s still in the planning stage and he’s worried about the grading! The story is so salacious and unpalatable it got him banned from a writing forum.

February 24th, 2020, 04:43 PM	#276
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? That may have been the forum’s “diplomatic” reason. Seems weird...movies have been made with content like that before (whatever it was), dont know why that would get someone banned. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

February 24th, 2020, 09:51 PM	#278
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Well I did a test with the car headlights in front of me. I can get my legs exposed enough for the camera, but not my face. The legs are good though, if I shoot at 1/50, f5.6, so the DOF is not too shallow and the ISO at 1600. So that's the settings I need for my legs to be exposed, but my face is still too dark. For a master shot, where you see a whole character, the headlights will not work if they attached to a car perhaps, since the actors lower body will be lit a more than the upper body and face.

February 24th, 2020, 11:24 PM	#279
John Nantz Trustee Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 1,252	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Options: #1. Run the car front wheels up on some blocks of wood and use high-beams #2. If #1 isn't high enough, put front end on jack stands. Block rear wheels of course.

February 25th, 2020, 01:55 AM	#280
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Of course car headlights (if fitted to the car0 won't light faces, they designed for lighting the road. You're meant to be testing to see if the lights themselves are suitable. As mentioned earlier, you should've sat down for your face test, If suitable you should buy some headlights from a car breaker or check out if they sell sealed beam lamps at the auto part syore. BTW you'll need some car batteries to run them, The breakers yard could be a cheap source. However, unless the scene is short, I would tend towards power, other than batteries, If there's no power available from nearby buildings, I would check out the generators, park it on the other side of a building, with a 100ft ((or longer if needed) cable run of heavy duty cable to the Lights, The larger towed generators used on building sites or outdoor events aren't that loud and if shielded behind buildings they may not be picked up on the sound, You can ask the plant hire company to run their kit as a test. I would also check out audio software for removing any remaining generator sound in post, The sound recordist records a reference track for this software, so it knows what to remove. It's not my department, but a fussy professional recordist was happy doing it with a noisy small generator.

February 25th, 2020, 01:59 AM	#281
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Oh okay thanks. Yes I think the headlights will work, as long as they are not on the car yes. I think I would need a few of the on stands to light the actors evenly. As for removing the sound in post, whenever I've tried doing that in the past with background noises, such as furnaces, not allowed to switch off, or things like that, a good portion of the audio quality in the dialogue went out with it. But as long as it will be acceptable still. One thing I mentioned before though was using 1000 watt lights for lighting. A 1000 watt headlight is 8000 lumens. A car headlight is only 700 lumens. Wouldn't this mean that a 1000 watt light would be brighter than a car headlight or no?

February 25th, 2020, 02:15 AM	#282
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Higher wattage mains lights will usually be brighter than car headlights. Since you've got the figures I'm not sure why you're asking the question. There are a number of battery powered LED lights that you can hire from plant hire companies, they won't be designed for photographic work, but in the context of a thriller they could be interesting. For example: Smith Light - YouTube Last edited by Brian Drysdale; February 25th, 2020 at 03:03 AM.

February 25th, 2020, 08:13 AM	#283
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,016	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Remember that optics apply to lighting as well as lenses. If you look at at old fashioned arri Fresnel. The photometric data shows it is very bright when on narrow angle but quite dim on fully wide. The intensity of the actual light source can be quite meaningless if it’s an isotrophic point source. As soon as you concentrate output in one direction the figures change! One thought on your script and the banning. Forums are wide and classless containing a huge variety of people. If your script content troubled them then would not your movie do so too? If subject matter limits audience groups is that good?

February 25th, 2020, 11:01 AM	#284
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Oh okay thanks. When I did the car headlight test, I stood in front of the car and tried to go at the distance, where the lights seem to be the brightest on me, unless that was the wrong angle to go? Well I wanted to make a script that I found interesting, and struck a cord as well. Cause if I make a script that is too 'safe', I felt there is a good chance it would be forget-able, especially if it's a micro-budget indie film, from a newcomer. So I thought if I produce and direct something that struck a cord, it would leave more of an impression after in comparison. But I've also been a fan of darker stories usually as well.

February 25th, 2020, 11:27 AM	#285
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? You have to know the audience that you're aiming for, so if you're going for festivals, you may be limited to those for a particular genre. From what I've heard so far, it doesn't really leap out at you. I've caught a few minutes of a low budget revenge movie on the horror channel called "Nude Nuns with Big Guns" and it pretty much does what it says on the box, so leaps out at it's intended audience. I gather it was the subject of one of the largest copyright lawsuits in California. I didn't know there was a sub genre called nunsploitation, but think of priests as gangsters dealing in drugs and you get some sense of the film. To stand out in that crowd you need a really strong one line hook and I'm not sure you've got that.