What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading?

Ryan Elder · March 2nd, 2020, 07:05 PM

For sure, yes I know I can only open up to f2.8, but even with that, I still only have about less than 3 inches of focus, on a telephoto, according to my calculations. So even that is not much focus room at f2.8, and is still very shallow, if that's okay.

Pete Cofrancesco · March 2nd, 2020, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay, well I was thinking I would get 2 lenses. A 24mm, a 50mm, and one that can zoom into 300mm around for certain shots here and there, where I want high compression.

MFT have a 2x crop so the lenses you mention would be equivalent to a normal (24=48mm) and telephoto (50=100mm). You would need an ultra wide to get an equivalent wide.

There is very little need for a super-telephoto. These lenses are made primarily for people who can't get close to their subjects like nature, sports, and event photographers. But you can because when shooting a movie at any time you can yell cut and reposition the camera as close as you need.You like to go on about compression, a normal telephoto is fine, and at your current level, no one is going to care about compression. This is film school kind of stuff. It's not like it doesn't matter but just like grading it isn't essential to the success of the film.

Like Brian is saying fast lenses don't need to to be shot wide open but its nice to have when needed. Lighting is difficult and expensive. One of the most useful tools to combat low light is a fast lens. MFT are not good low light performers to begin with and stick a slow lens on it...

The MFT dof is huge compared to FF. People who use the G5 for weddings have 2 complaints its not great in low light and its difficult to get a shallow dof.

One of the main reasons people get the Black Magic Pocket cameras is that they can mount manual focus lens that you can pull focus. You still haven't said how you intend to pull focus with the fly by wire lenses you have.

Ryan Elder · March 2nd, 2020, 08:11 PM

But the Tamron 18-400mm isn't fly-by-wire though. It has hard stops and I can pull focus with it therefore. Unless I missed something?

The reason why I want a telephoto lens is because of shots where I want high compression. I tried faking compression with wider lenses and getting closer, but it didn't work. People could tell the compression was fake. Here are some examples, of a telephoto lens with real compression, vs. a 50mm lens, with fake compression:

I was told that faking the compression with a 50mm does not work, and I need a telephoto lens to get compression. That is why I wanted one was for those types of shots, such as an OTS shot, where the actors are really closer together, or where I want the gun to be really close to the face.

Another reason for a telephoto lens, is cause in the chase scenes, where a character is running from another, I can pan the camera for a longer along with the actor for a long amount of time compared to a wider lens. Here is a testI did with a telephoto:

So these types of shots, as well as high compression shots, where I want actors to appear closer together in an OTS, or where I want a gun to look close to the face, are the reasons why I wanted a telephoto lens for those shots. Does that make sense, or can these shots be done with a wider lens? Now I could say nevermind those types of shots, but I feel I should be able to direct the shots my way to what I feel is best to tell the story, shouldn't I?

Another thing is, is that long lenses make things like punches look more convincing, cause it looks like the actors are actually hitting the other person compared to wider lenses of course. So if I do not have telephoto lenses will I still be able to sell the effect?

But also, if shooting on a fast telephoto lens is best, with a shallow DOF is best, than what I if I just did that then?

Brian Drysdale · March 3rd, 2020, 02:06 AM

Regarding fake hitting, the actors meed to have good timing and the camera has to be in the right position to hide that the blow isn't connecting. That combined with the right sound effect gives the impression that the blow has connected without telephoto lenses, which aren't the most dynamic looking lenses for a fight scene..

I suspect your problem is that the first two factors aren't correct. Any fight scene needs a lot of rehearsing and choregraphing, they can spend days putting rehearsing these scenes. Professional wrestlers pull it off without telephoto lenses in front of a live audience. A fight arranger would be worth hiring, if you've got the funds.

Why not use a profile shot for the gun stuck into someone's face? it looks a lot nastier than a frontal shot or even how the nose cut in Chinatown, which doesn't use long lenses. You seem to be trying to get the lens to do what the actors should be delivering. .

Ryan Elder · March 3rd, 2020, 02:20 AM

Oh okay thanks, I thought that telephoto lenses would be safer for the actors, cause they don't have to get as close to punch then, compared to professional wrestlers.

What about the other shots though where I would want a telephoto lens? When you say show a profile shot of a gun in someone's face, well in my scenario, the shooter is further away and not up close like that, but I also want to show an extreme face close up of the shooter to gauge their emotional point of view. For example let's say for one shot I want to have an extreme close up of an actors face while he shoots someone. With a telephoto, you can get an extreme close up of an actor's face with the gun looking very close to the face. What if I shot it instead, where the camera is close and moved past the gun for an extreme close up of the face.

So you get an extreme close up of the face, but without a gun in front of it, cause the camera is past the gun. Would that work just as well then?

Brian Drysdale · March 3rd, 2020, 02:28 AM

Are they just pointing a gun or sticking it into someone's face? Consider faking the gun into the shot, if the camera is closer, than the reality. .

Let the actors practice the fight scene, they can work out their timings. Trained professional actors are taught how to do fight scenes for their stage work, if you're doing serious fight scenes, get a fight arranger.

Ryan Elder · March 3rd, 2020, 02:30 AM

Oh okay as long as the training and timing is enough and I do not need compression to sell the hits.

The actor is suppose to be pointing a gun and aiming at someone further away. Like in the test clip I showed before at the beginning of the video:

That's the kind of shot I want, or at least a close up of the shooter's face, as he shoots someone. When you say consider faking the gun into the shot, what do you mean by 'faking'? How would I do that?

Brian Drysdale · March 3rd, 2020, 02:44 AM

Unfortunately, those shots look flat and rather boring, I would think again.

Pete Cofrancesco · March 3rd, 2020, 06:40 AM

Ryan you keeping posting that clip to prove your point about compression but I think it does the opposite. I couldn’t say which angle of view was better and neither would an average viewer. I agree with Brian seems flat and unappealing. Learn to trust what you see rather than trying to impose rules.

You seem to be stuck on this compression thing and are misusing it. Like others pointed out many of your examples like the gun could be filmed a different way. Profile of the gun would work better. Knowing you, you’ve lifted it from a movie and locked into one way to film it. You remind me of inexperienced students who construct an over thought explanation to defend why it “should” work.

Using compression to try to cover up people who can’t pull off a proper fight scene...

Like I said before start by getting the 3 standard primes (wide, medium, long) and forget about these odd scenarios you’ve convinced yourself you need a super telephoto.

Ryan Elder · March 3rd, 2020, 11:17 AM

Oh well the reason I wanted to show the face from in front during the gunshots is because profile is more from the side, and you get a different type of emotion with profile from the side more compared to the front. The front you get a different perspective of the character which I am going for and feel that would be better.

For the OTS shot, I want two characters to be really close and intimate and a longer lens will bring them really close and intimate in an OTS perpective. If I use a wider lens for the OTS shot, it will make them further apart, and less intimate.

Brian Drysdale · March 3rd, 2020, 11:24 AM

You don't need a long lens for the shot to be intimate, unfortunately, the current long lens idea creates the opposite impression, because you can sense the camera is distant to the participants.

Ryan Elder · March 3rd, 2020, 11:26 AM

What I mean is, is that the characters look closer together, which is more important intimacy wise, than how far back the camera is. But I still need to be zoomed in close, to not only have them closer together, but to see their face emotion more.

I'm just trying to use my own instincts, when coming up with the shots, as to what I feel is best, and I should do that, right? I mean it was said on here that I should make my own decisions sometimes, so isn't it good that I am calling the shots, on the shotlist?

But I did suggest alternative ideas before, if I am not to use the telephoto lens. What about those alternatives? For example, what if I showed the front of the face during the gunshot, without showing the gun, cause the gun would be past the camera in that case? Would that work, if I don't use a telephoto?

Or what about faking the compression during the OTS shot?

Pete Cofrancesco · March 3rd, 2020, 12:34 PM

There are many factors in a scene that are going to effect the how the audience will feel. You’ve taken one factor, angle of view, more specifically compression, inferred it creates intimacy, when I’m not convinced it does, and raised this expected effect far beyond that is reasonable.

Maybe you should research all the factors that create intimacy. You might be surprised to find out compression isn’t one of them. Did it ever occur to you position the actors closer together?

Ryan Elder · March 3rd, 2020, 12:39 PM

Oh okay, I mean I am describing the shot out of context, so maybe it context of the movie it would make more sense.

Yes, it occurred to me to move the actors closer. What about on the example video I posted, where I tried to move the actors closer together and cheat it? Should I just do that instead?

Brian Drysdale · March 3rd, 2020, 01:00 PM

Unless the scene is intrinsically intimate, though the closeness of the characters and their relationship for good or bad, a lens isn't going imply anything. Bear in mind that the audience is also part of this and need to sense their intimacy with the characters, perhaps to the point of discomfort and not wanting to be there.

Long lenses can give a sub conscious sense of voyeurism unless you're careful.

March 2nd, 2020, 07:05 PM	#316
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? For sure, yes I know I can only open up to f2.8, but even with that, I still only have about less than 3 inches of focus, on a telephoto, according to my calculations. So even that is not much focus room at f2.8, and is still very shallow, if that's okay.

March 2nd, 2020, 08:11 PM	#318
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? But the Tamron 18-400mm isn't fly-by-wire though. It has hard stops and I can pull focus with it therefore. Unless I missed something? The reason why I want a telephoto lens is because of shots where I want high compression. I tried faking compression with wider lenses and getting closer, but it didn't work. People could tell the compression was fake. Here are some examples, of a telephoto lens with real compression, vs. a 50mm lens, with fake compression: compression tests - YouTube I was told that faking the compression with a 50mm does not work, and I need a telephoto lens to get compression. That is why I wanted one was for those types of shots, such as an OTS shot, where the actors are really closer together, or where I want the gun to be really close to the face. Another reason for a telephoto lens, is cause in the chase scenes, where a character is running from another, I can pan the camera for a longer along with the actor for a long amount of time compared to a wider lens. Here is a testI did with a telephoto: lens running test 2 - YouTube So these types of shots, as well as high compression shots, where I want actors to appear closer together in an OTS, or where I want a gun to look close to the face, are the reasons why I wanted a telephoto lens for those shots. Does that make sense, or can these shots be done with a wider lens? Now I could say nevermind those types of shots, but I feel I should be able to direct the shots my way to what I feel is best to tell the story, shouldn't I? Another thing is, is that long lenses make things like punches look more convincing, cause it looks like the actors are actually hitting the other person compared to wider lenses of course. So if I do not have telephoto lenses will I still be able to sell the effect? But also, if shooting on a fast telephoto lens is best, with a shallow DOF is best, than what I if I just did that then? Last edited by Ryan Elder; March 3rd, 2020 at 02:31 AM.

March 3rd, 2020, 02:06 AM	#319
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Regarding fake hitting, the actors meed to have good timing and the camera has to be in the right position to hide that the blow isn't connecting. That combined with the right sound effect gives the impression that the blow has connected without telephoto lenses, which aren't the most dynamic looking lenses for a fight scene.. I suspect your problem is that the first two factors aren't correct. Any fight scene needs a lot of rehearsing and choregraphing, they can spend days putting rehearsing these scenes. Professional wrestlers pull it off without telephoto lenses in front of a live audience. A fight arranger would be worth hiring, if you've got the funds. Why not use a profile shot for the gun stuck into someone's face? it looks a lot nastier than a frontal shot or even how the nose cut in Chinatown, which doesn't use long lenses. You seem to be trying to get the lens to do what the actors should be delivering. . Roman Polanski cuts Jack Nicholson's nose - YouTube

March 3rd, 2020, 02:20 AM	#320
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Oh okay thanks, I thought that telephoto lenses would be safer for the actors, cause they don't have to get as close to punch then, compared to professional wrestlers. What about the other shots though where I would want a telephoto lens? When you say show a profile shot of a gun in someone's face, well in my scenario, the shooter is further away and not up close like that, but I also want to show an extreme face close up of the shooter to gauge their emotional point of view. For example let's say for one shot I want to have an extreme close up of an actors face while he shoots someone. With a telephoto, you can get an extreme close up of an actor's face with the gun looking very close to the face. What if I shot it instead, where the camera is close and moved past the gun for an extreme close up of the face. So you get an extreme close up of the face, but without a gun in front of it, cause the camera is past the gun. Would that work just as well then?

March 3rd, 2020, 02:28 AM	#321
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Are they just pointing a gun or sticking it into someone's face? Consider faking the gun into the shot, if the camera is closer, than the reality. . Let the actors practice the fight scene, they can work out their timings. Trained professional actors are taught how to do fight scenes for their stage work, if you're doing serious fight scenes, get a fight arranger.

March 3rd, 2020, 02:30 AM	#322
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Oh okay as long as the training and timing is enough and I do not need compression to sell the hits. The actor is suppose to be pointing a gun and aiming at someone further away. Like in the test clip I showed before at the beginning of the video: compression tests - YouTube That's the kind of shot I want, or at least a close up of the shooter's face, as he shoots someone. When you say consider faking the gun into the shot, what do you mean by 'faking'? How would I do that?

March 3rd, 2020, 02:44 AM	#323
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Unfortunately, those shots look flat and rather boring, I would think again.

March 3rd, 2020, 06:40 AM	#324
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,997	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Ryan you keeping posting that clip to prove your point about compression but I think it does the opposite. I couldn’t say which angle of view was better and neither would an average viewer. I agree with Brian seems flat and unappealing. Learn to trust what you see rather than trying to impose rules. You seem to be stuck on this compression thing and are misusing it. Like others pointed out many of your examples like the gun could be filmed a different way. Profile of the gun would work better. Knowing you, you’ve lifted it from a movie and locked into one way to film it. You remind me of inexperienced students who construct an over thought explanation to defend why it “should” work. Using compression to try to cover up people who can’t pull off a proper fight scene... Like I said before start by getting the 3 standard primes (wide, medium, long) and forget about these odd scenarios you’ve convinced yourself you need a super telephoto. Last edited by Pete Cofrancesco; March 3rd, 2020 at 09:37 AM.

March 3rd, 2020, 11:17 AM	#325
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Oh well the reason I wanted to show the face from in front during the gunshots is because profile is more from the side, and you get a different type of emotion with profile from the side more compared to the front. The front you get a different perspective of the character which I am going for and feel that would be better. For the OTS shot, I want two characters to be really close and intimate and a longer lens will bring them really close and intimate in an OTS perpective. If I use a wider lens for the OTS shot, it will make them further apart, and less intimate.

March 3rd, 2020, 11:24 AM	#326
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? You don't need a long lens for the shot to be intimate, unfortunately, the current long lens idea creates the opposite impression, because you can sense the camera is distant to the participants.

March 3rd, 2020, 11:26 AM	#327
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? What I mean is, is that the characters look closer together, which is more important intimacy wise, than how far back the camera is. But I still need to be zoomed in close, to not only have them closer together, but to see their face emotion more. I'm just trying to use my own instincts, when coming up with the shots, as to what I feel is best, and I should do that, right? I mean it was said on here that I should make my own decisions sometimes, so isn't it good that I am calling the shots, on the shotlist? But I did suggest alternative ideas before, if I am not to use the telephoto lens. What about those alternatives? For example, what if I showed the front of the face during the gunshot, without showing the gun, cause the gun would be past the camera in that case? Would that work, if I don't use a telephoto? Or what about faking the compression during the OTS shot?

March 3rd, 2020, 12:34 PM	#328
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,997	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? There are many factors in a scene that are going to effect the how the audience will feel. You’ve taken one factor, angle of view, more specifically compression, inferred it creates intimacy, when I’m not convinced it does, and raised this expected effect far beyond that is reasonable. Maybe you should research all the factors that create intimacy. You might be surprised to find out compression isn’t one of them. Did it ever occur to you position the actors closer together?

March 3rd, 2020, 12:39 PM	#329
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Oh okay, I mean I am describing the shot out of context, so maybe it context of the movie it would make more sense. Yes, it occurred to me to move the actors closer. What about on the example video I posted, where I tried to move the actors closer together and cheat it? Should I just do that instead?

March 3rd, 2020, 01:00 PM	#330
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: What camera would be best for me when it comes to color grading? Unless the scene is intrinsically intimate, though the closeness of the characters and their relationship for good or bad, a lens isn't going imply anything. Bear in mind that the audience is also part of this and need to sense their intimacy with the characters, perhaps to the point of discomfort and not wanting to be there. Long lenses can give a sub conscious sense of voyeurism unless you're careful.