Question about a field recorder works in this case.

Richard Crowley · January 17th, 2020, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder

Oh okay, well if the circuit is not being broken then, then why does it need batteries at all then, if I am using a plug in power source?

Many pieces of portable, battery-operated gear actually use the batteries as a layer of power supply filtering. Instead of having big capacitors inside the gear, they use the batteries for an extra stage of filtering so that if there is any mains ripple (which you would hear as "hum"), the batteries will smooth the voltage to make the audio circuits happy and quiet.

Any of us who use lots of electronic gear should have at least a basic DMM (Digital Multi-Meter) in our tool kit. Even if it is just a $20 generic gadget from Canadian Tire, etc. You could at least check the voltage coming out of the power supply to confirm that it is within spec. If not, then a replacement power supply would be the most likely solution.

Other potential issues could be that your electric utility power mains voltage is low. Again, even a basic DMM would be suitable for measuring the mains voltage (set for AC volts and the appropriate voltage range. I believe you have 115V nominal domestic voltage in Canadia?)

Or it could be that the recorder itself has an internal problem with the voltage sensing circuit and needs repair/replacement. It is certainly an annoying problem. Hopefully the recorder itself isn't the source of the problem.

Greg Miller · January 18th, 2020, 12:35 AM

First question: is the AC adapter that you are now using (when trouble occurs) the same one you have always used (before the trouble started)?

Second question: Is it the factory original AC adapter, or an after-market affair?

Third question: What kind of batteries are you using? Alkaline? LiIon? NiMH? Are they the same type that you were using before the trouble started? Does the recorder have different settings for different types of batteries?

Fourth question: With no batteries, and only the AC adapter, you said "nothing" happens. Do you mean the recorder does not power up at all? Or do you mean "nothing out of the ordinary" happens (i.e. it works as it should)?

I pretty much agree with everyone else. Without more data, voltage readings, maybe a look at the schematic, we do not have enough data to say for sure why this problem occurs.

If you clearly answer the above four questions, that might get us a little closer to knowing why. But we're still in the realm of speculation until the problem is solved, or until we have a lot more data.

If you buy a new AC adapter and that solves the problem, that will tell us why.

Be absolutely sure the one you buy is electrically equivalent to the OEM adapter. Otherwise you may cause some serious damage. I have seen adapters labeled "12V" that actually put out more than 16V no load, and around 14V with one particular load. I have seen more than one device killed because of this. You do not want to fry your recorder. If you can't get adequate and accurate specs for the OEM adapter, then consider buying an OEM adapter. Better safe than sorry.

I'm always curious about problems like this. I have also learned (over the past 50 years) that guessing at an answer is not the same as logically knowing the answer. You need more data. Stop wasting time speculating. Get a new AC adapter of the correct type. Try it and see what happens. If you can't afford $20 - $30 (the cost of the dinner special at a cheap chain restaurant) for a new adapter, then you shouldn't be doing sound work.

P.S.: Two demerits if your reply begins "Oh, OK." Three demerits if it begins "Yes, but ..."

Pete Cofrancesco · January 22nd, 2020, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

P.S.: Two demerits if your reply begins "Oh, OK." Three demerits if it begins "Yes, but ..."

LOL

If I thought he had the aptitude for this type of work and could get paid gigs I’d recommend investing in more professional equipment.

Ryan Elder · January 30th, 2020, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Miller

First question: is the AC adapter that you are now using (when trouble occurs) the same one you have always used (before the trouble started)?

Second question: Is it the factory original AC adapter, or an after-market affair?

Third question: What kind of batteries are you using? Alkaline? LiIon? NiMH? Are they the same type that you were using before the trouble started? Does the recorder have different settings for different types of batteries?

Fourth question: With no batteries, and only the AC adapter, you said "nothing" happens. Do you mean the recorder does not power up at all? Or do you mean "nothing out of the ordinary" happens (i.e. it works as it should)?

I pretty much agree with everyone else. Without more data, voltage readings, maybe a look at the schematic, we do not have enough data to say for sure why this problem occurs.

If you clearly answer the above four questions, that might get us a little closer to knowing why. But we're still in the realm of speculation until the problem is solved, or until we have a lot more data.

If you buy a new AC adapter and that solves the problem, that will tell us why.

Be absolutely sure the one you buy is electrically equivalent to the OEM adapter. Otherwise you may cause some serious damage. I have seen adapters labeled "12V" that actually put out more than 16V no load, and around 14V with one particular load. I have seen more than one device killed because of this. You do not want to fry your recorder. If you can't get adequate and accurate specs for the OEM adapter, then consider buying an OEM adapter. Better safe than sorry.

I'm always curious about problems like this. I have also learned (over the past 50 years) that guessing at an answer is not the same as logically knowing the answer. You need more data. Stop wasting time speculating. Get a new AC adapter of the correct type. Try it and see what happens. If you can't afford $20 - $30 (the cost of the dinner special at a cheap chain restaurant) for a new adapter, then you shouldn't be doing sound work.

P.S.: Two demerits if your reply begins "Oh, OK." Three demerits if it begins "Yes, but ..."

Okay thanks. No I am using a different adapter now, cause the original went missing a few years ago.

The new one has been working fine over the years until now. I am using the same type of batteries before the trouble started I think. I took a break in between shoots before it started. I think the batteries are the same brand name I had before, I am pretty sure. They are just the double AA Kirkland brand you can buy. No the recorder does not seem to have different settings for different batteries.

Sorry for not being more specific. When I said nothing happens, I meant the recorder has no power at all if I remove the batteries and plug it in. It has to have batteries to have power, while plugged in.

Greg Miller · January 30th, 2020, 03:22 PM

Ryan,

You're welcome. No demerits. ;-)

With the info you provided today, we can safely conclude the following.

IMHO the problem might be:
a.) the AC adapter (including its AC line plug and its DC output connector),
b.) the recorder's connector that the AC adapter plugs into,
c.) circuitry within the recorder that is [electrically] located between connector (b.) and the recorder's logic and audio circuitry.
(In other words, it's not the fault of the batteries, but otherwise we haven't narrowed it down too much. We pretty much knew this already.)

If I were facing this situation, I'd start by checking the adapter with a multimeter. I have a meter and I know what to look for. But IIRC you don't. You could get an appropriate meter at your local Harbor Freight for $2.95 (literally). And I could try to explain the procedure by way of written dialog. That would be very time consuming for both of us. And unless I could actually see what you're doing, there's a chance for miscommunication and some resulting damage, to the meter or to the adapter. I don't want to be involved in that. If you *really* want to start using a meter, your quickest learning curve is to find someone local who can show you how. Otherwise I'm sure there are a gazillion ewe-toob videos covering the subject.

Alternatively, I can only repeat what I (and several other folks) said previously: try a new AC adapter. That's the most expeditious course of action. Again, if you know how to use a meter and you know a bit about how power supplies work, you could choose and test a third-party adapter to be sure it wouldn't damage the recorder. Otherwise, look into getting an OEM adapter that's known to work with this particular recorder. If you have Amazon prime and you can buy the adapter from them, there's a no-questions return policy if it doesn't solve the problem.

Ryan Elder · January 31st, 2020, 02:14 AM

Oh okay thanks. I have a friend who has a multimeter I think, I will ask him. I will also get my hands on a new adapter and check this out and get back to you on here. Thanks.

Ryan Elder · February 8th, 2020, 02:06 AM

Well I tried a new adapter. Instead of the battery indicator going empty, like the old adapter, the battery indicator is now half full. But that's strange cause of the adapter is not plugged in and it's running off just the batteries, the batteries are full according to the indicator. But when I plug in the new adapter, now the power is half full. Any reason why that could be? But still half full is better than empty and therefore no power, with the adapter plugged in.

Pete Cofrancesco · February 8th, 2020, 08:30 AM

It’s old gear as long as it works with the new adapter is all that matters

Ryan Elder · February 8th, 2020, 11:54 AM

Yes that's true, thanks. Do you think I should replace the field recorder with something more new? I was talking to a friend about it's problem I was having and he said that since the FR2-LE is old now, that audio technology has probably improved since then and I should get something of better quality. But has it improved a lot, that it's worth it?

Paul R Johnson · February 8th, 2020, 12:12 PM

You really need to get better qualified friends Ryan. Audio quality has been pretty stagnant. This is what, m 10 years old and still records in formats we use now regularly. It interfaces to things with USB - you can still get CF cards and the preamps are decent enough. The facilities it has are still found in new ones. It can manage 192KHz rates and I'd rather like one. I still have my portable HHB MD recorders from probably 20 years ago, and they too sound just as good as contemporary recorders. What significant improvements are you thinking of? What would be better quality? If it works, and the batteries are now charging fine - put the money into your new camera. I did think about offering you silly money to take the terrible thing off your hands, but I don't have the heart. Seriously, these idiots who advise you on everything sound like well meaning novices who just talk rubbish!

Pete Cofrancesco · February 8th, 2020, 01:33 PM

For what you're using it for it's fine. Over the past 10 years there hasn't been a lot of change in audio recorders. The newer recorders are smaller or offer more features. Recently they have combined the mixer and recorder into one unit, which is a matter of convenience. If you're not making money you should stick with what you have.

Ryan Elder · February 8th, 2020, 01:54 PM

Okay thanks, I didn't think there was much change but one friend who works in audio feels that you have to turn the fader up quite high, where as on the Zoom F8, which I have also used once, you don't have to, and you have a lot more room to turn it up. Does that mean you can record more quiet sound with the F8, with less noise floor, compared to the FR2-LE?

Brian Drysdale · February 8th, 2020, 02:17 PM

That would depend on the noise level of the recorder and specification of the mic. If you can't hear the noise in the headphones it's probably not going to be a factor, it's something you can check with a few practical tests. Since you're doing dramas, this shouldn't be an issue because the reverb will become a factor if the mic is too far away.

Don Palomaki · February 8th, 2020, 04:37 PM

IMO: Buy a new recorder only if:
- you are worried about the reliability
- it is missing some feature ie enhancement you really need
- you are not satisfied wit the recordings you get
- you want a recorder with a warranty (and perhaps factory support) still in effect

Paul R Johnson · February 8th, 2020, 04:50 PM

For goodness sake! It's your recorder - are you happy with the performance? If you are happy, then put two fingers up and tell your friend he is talking out of his rear end!

Who cares what the fader position is? The question is does it do the job, the way you need it doing?

If an audio device has a gain control and a channel fader, the fader position can be changed. If you like to work with enough gain available so for the occasional quiet bit you know is coming can be captured simply by raising the channel fader. OR you could have the channel fader working nearer the top and then kick yourself when you shove it and it hits the end stop. How you arrange your gain staging is up to you, and usually you experiment and work out how much gain can be applied before the noise starts to increase - for convenience with multiple inputs I run with channel faders at the same point for equal volume, however, the gain on some will be higher because either the person speaks quieter, or the mic is further away, or because that mic is a bit deafer. I know the point the preamp noise becomes a problem.

Old kit is rarely bad kit. When did the CD first burst onto the scene? Audio has been good for a long time now.

January 18th, 2020, 12:35 AM	#17
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,786	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. First question: is the AC adapter that you are now using (when trouble occurs) the same one you have always used (before the trouble started)? Second question: Is it the factory original AC adapter, or an after-market affair? Third question: What kind of batteries are you using? Alkaline? LiIon? NiMH? Are they the same type that you were using before the trouble started? Does the recorder have different settings for different types of batteries? Fourth question: With no batteries, and only the AC adapter, you said "nothing" happens. Do you mean the recorder does not power up at all? Or do you mean "nothing out of the ordinary" happens (i.e. it works as it should)? I pretty much agree with everyone else. Without more data, voltage readings, maybe a look at the schematic, we do not have enough data to say for sure why this problem occurs. If you clearly answer the above four questions, that might get us a little closer to knowing why. But we're still in the realm of speculation until the problem is solved, or until we have a lot more data. If you buy a new AC adapter and that solves the problem, that will tell us why. Be absolutely sure the one you buy is electrically equivalent to the OEM adapter. Otherwise you may cause some serious damage. I have seen adapters labeled "12V" that actually put out more than 16V no load, and around 14V with one particular load. I have seen more than one device killed because of this. You do not want to fry your recorder. If you can't get adequate and accurate specs for the OEM adapter, then consider buying an OEM adapter. Better safe than sorry. I'm always curious about problems like this. I have also learned (over the past 50 years) that guessing at an answer is not the same as logically knowing the answer. You need more data. Stop wasting time speculating. Get a new AC adapter of the correct type. Try it and see what happens. If you can't afford $20 - $30 (the cost of the dinner special at a cheap chain restaurant) for a new adapter, then you shouldn't be doing sound work. P.S.: Two demerits if your reply begins "Oh, OK." Three demerits if it begins "Yes, but ..."

January 30th, 2020, 03:22 PM	#20
Greg Miller Trustee Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,786	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. Ryan, You're welcome. No demerits. ;-) With the info you provided today, we can safely conclude the following. IMHO the problem might be: a.) the AC adapter (including its AC line plug and its DC output connector), b.) the recorder's connector that the AC adapter plugs into, c.) circuitry within the recorder that is [electrically] located between connector (b.) and the recorder's logic and audio circuitry. (In other words, it's not the fault of the batteries, but otherwise we haven't narrowed it down too much. We pretty much knew this already.) If I were facing this situation, I'd start by checking the adapter with a multimeter. I have a meter and I know what to look for. But IIRC you don't. You could get an appropriate meter at your local Harbor Freight for $2.95 (literally). And I could try to explain the procedure by way of written dialog. That would be very time consuming for both of us. And unless I could actually see what you're doing, there's a chance for miscommunication and some resulting damage, to the meter or to the adapter. I don't want to be involved in that. If you really want to start using a meter, your quickest learning curve is to find someone local who can show you how. Otherwise I'm sure there are a gazillion ewe-toob videos covering the subject. Alternatively, I can only repeat what I (and several other folks) said previously: try a new AC adapter. That's the most expeditious course of action. Again, if you know how to use a meter and you know a bit about how power supplies work, you could choose and test a third-party adapter to be sure it wouldn't damage the recorder. Otherwise, look into getting an OEM adapter that's known to work with this particular recorder. If you have Amazon prime and you can buy the adapter from them, there's a no-questions return policy if it doesn't solve the problem.

January 31st, 2020, 02:14 AM	#21
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. Oh okay thanks. I have a friend who has a multimeter I think, I will ask him. I will also get my hands on a new adapter and check this out and get back to you on here. Thanks.

February 8th, 2020, 02:06 AM	#22
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. Well I tried a new adapter. Instead of the battery indicator going empty, like the old adapter, the battery indicator is now half full. But that's strange cause of the adapter is not plugged in and it's running off just the batteries, the batteries are full according to the indicator. But when I plug in the new adapter, now the power is half full. Any reason why that could be? But still half full is better than empty and therefore no power, with the adapter plugged in.

February 8th, 2020, 08:30 AM	#23
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,995	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. It’s old gear as long as it works with the new adapter is all that matters

February 8th, 2020, 11:54 AM	#24
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. Yes that's true, thanks. Do you think I should replace the field recorder with something more new? I was talking to a friend about it's problem I was having and he said that since the FR2-LE is old now, that audio technology has probably improved since then and I should get something of better quality. But has it improved a lot, that it's worth it?

February 8th, 2020, 12:12 PM	#25
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. You really need to get better qualified friends Ryan. Audio quality has been pretty stagnant. This is what, m 10 years old and still records in formats we use now regularly. It interfaces to things with USB - you can still get CF cards and the preamps are decent enough. The facilities it has are still found in new ones. It can manage 192KHz rates and I'd rather like one. I still have my portable HHB MD recorders from probably 20 years ago, and they too sound just as good as contemporary recorders. What significant improvements are you thinking of? What would be better quality? If it works, and the batteries are now charging fine - put the money into your new camera. I did think about offering you silly money to take the terrible thing off your hands, but I don't have the heart. Seriously, these idiots who advise you on everything sound like well meaning novices who just talk rubbish!

February 8th, 2020, 01:33 PM	#26
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,995	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. For what you're using it for it's fine. Over the past 10 years there hasn't been a lot of change in audio recorders. The newer recorders are smaller or offer more features. Recently they have combined the mixer and recorder into one unit, which is a matter of convenience. If you're not making money you should stick with what you have.

February 8th, 2020, 01:54 PM	#27
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. Okay thanks, I didn't think there was much change but one friend who works in audio feels that you have to turn the fader up quite high, where as on the Zoom F8, which I have also used once, you don't have to, and you have a lot more room to turn it up. Does that mean you can record more quiet sound with the F8, with less noise floor, compared to the FR2-LE?

February 8th, 2020, 02:17 PM	#28
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. That would depend on the noise level of the recorder and specification of the mic. If you can't hear the noise in the headphones it's probably not going to be a factor, it's something you can check with a few practical tests. Since you're doing dramas, this shouldn't be an issue because the reverb will become a factor if the mic is too far away.

February 8th, 2020, 04:37 PM	#29
Don Palomaki Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Northern VA Posts: 4,487	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. IMO: Buy a new recorder only if: - you are worried about the reliability - it is missing some feature ie enhancement you really need - you are not satisfied wit the recordings you get - you want a recorder with a warranty (and perhaps factory support) still in effect __________________ dpalomaki@dspalomaki.com

February 8th, 2020, 04:50 PM	#30
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Question about a field recorder works in this case. For goodness sake! It's your recorder - are you happy with the performance? If you are happy, then put two fingers up and tell your friend he is talking out of his rear end! Who cares what the fader position is? The question is does it do the job, the way you need it doing? If an audio device has a gain control and a channel fader, the fader position can be changed. If you like to work with enough gain available so for the occasional quiet bit you know is coming can be captured simply by raising the channel fader. OR you could have the channel fader working nearer the top and then kick yourself when you shove it and it hits the end stop. How you arrange your gain staging is up to you, and usually you experiment and work out how much gain can be applied before the noise starts to increase - for convenience with multiple inputs I run with channel faders at the same point for equal volume, however, the gain on some will be higher because either the person speaks quieter, or the mic is further away, or because that mic is a bit deafer. I know the point the preamp noise becomes a problem. Old kit is rarely bad kit. When did the CD first burst onto the scene? Audio has been good for a long time now.