Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?

[Brian Drysdale]

Some of the music you're using as temp tracks are written by such composers, film music being one of the areas that composers from a classical background work. Jerry Goldsmith has film pieces inspired by Penderecki.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. Sure I am open to it, if I like the music, but I would be worried if it would come off as cliched, or unoriginal, if i use someone else's music, that's already out there.

[Brian Drysdale]

there's a lot of music that an audience will be unaware of.

[Ryan Elder]

That's true. And I am open to using it, depending on what it is, and if it works. However, it was said before that I should get my compose to do something more original, rather than write something inspired by temp tracks. So if I ask the composer to recompose symphonies exactly, then wouldn't that be asking him to something even more unoriginal of him then?

[Brian Drysdale]

Your temp track selection seemed to be very well known, so I'm not sure that argument hold up. The composer will come up with something that isn't precisely the same as the temp tracks. The main problem is usually the director and others failing for the temp tracks, rather than the composed tracks.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay, what do you mean the director fails for the temp tracks exactly?

But also, if I ask the composer to recompose a piece of music, wouldn't they rather just compose something of their own creation even if it's inspired by music I wanted to be inspired by? I thought the argument is, is that recomposing a piece of music exactly, is worse than being inspired by one, than doing something somewhat similar but different. If a person recognizes a piece of classical music, they will immediately recognize it as that and say something like "Hey that's Mozart!", etc. But you don't often hear people say "Hey that kind of sounds like it could have been inspired by The Replacement Killers", for example?

[Josh Bass]

he meant “FALLING for the temp track”. It was a typo. in other words director falls in love with temp music theyve been listening to repeatedly for months edited into a certain scene and then when they hear the composed music they dont like it cause theyre used to the temp track

[Paul R Johnson]

The trouble is you just don't understand music, Ryan. Music rarely inspires in a movie, that's not what it does, so using more well known music is risky, because then the music becomes a tune, or a song. It's perfectly possible to use a more well known song when the choice is right. Tubular Bells in the Exorcist, for example - and in the war movies we get Ride of the Valkyries or Barber's Adagio. 2001 gave us a Strauss Waltz and of course Also Sprach Zarathustra. The failures are songs that didn't really find a proper home.

The worst thing to do is choose a song or piece of music that you like. If you think a song fitted a movie really well, then it won't work for a different movie. If your composer writes the music, then you have to ask if you should remove the possibility of a really good piece of music, written by a competent person that fits the visuals in favour of a musically less competent persons advice that "I think it would sound great with a bass zither" I'd never dream of giving a choreographer a steer because I have zero talent in that areas. I'm incompetent to give advice.

There is scope for composition in the style of. In our industry it removes all the copyright trouble, but also enables a flavour of a style to be appreciated without the clever ones identifying it.

Here's another link to one I did - Eric Satie - I just copied his style and technique, and called it Gymnopedie No. 4 (his stopped at No.3)

YouTube (Short URL)

The trouble is that it can still backfire and people start to think about the music - this sounds familiar, what is it? They should be watching the movie.

You've also missed the differences in the music type - underscoring, or themes. From what I read about your movies, you could be talking both. Maybe a Miami Vice style punchy, pacy theme - but for lots of your movie, the underscore has no real melody - it's not a song, just texture. Your bass flute is texture. You also have harmony and dissonance to consider - one creates tension and one releases it.

I'll ask again - have you watched the Guy Michelmore videos yet on YouTube - you will learn a great deal fro them and also, watch the Spitfire audio demos of how they compose for Film and TV - watch how they do it. Stop taking advice from people who haven't got a clue, and follow your instinct, NOT other people's products. Stop looking through YouTube videos that support your fixed view. Be willing to trust others.

Last question Ryan - what DAW does your composer use.

Try this latest Guy Michelmore video

YouTube (Short URL)

[Brian Drysdale]

Yes it's "fall".

Most people won't recognize Penderecki or the other classical composers you're likely to use on a thriller. Although, one of the funders on a short I made did recognize Penderecki, but she came from an arts background.

BTW She asked for a video of the film with the temp tracks, rather than the final composed music, so it's not just the director who falls for the temp music.

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

The trouble is you just don't understand music, Ryan. Music rarely inspires in a movie, that's not what it does, so using more well known music is risky, because then the music becomes a tune, or a song. It's perfectly possible to use a more well known song when the choice is right. Tubular Bells in the Exorcist, for example - and in the war movies we get Ride of the Valkyries or Barber's Adagio. 2001 gave us a Strauss Waltz and of course Also Sprach Zarathustra. The failures are songs that didn't really find a proper home.

The worst thing to do is choose a song or piece of music that you like. If you think a song fitted a movie really well, then it won't work for a different movie. If your composer writes the music, then you have to ask if you should remove the possibility of a really good piece of music, written by a competent person that fits the visuals in favour of a musically less competent persons advice that "I think it would sound great with a bass zither" I'd never dream of giving a choreographer a steer because I have zero talent in that areas. I'm incompetent to give advice.

There is scope for composition in the style of. In our industry it removes all the copyright trouble, but also enables a flavour of a style to be appreciated without the clever ones identifying it.

Here's another link to one I did - Eric Satie - I just copied his style and technique, and called it Gymnopedie No. 4 (his stopped at No.3) https://youtu.be/2YuhRskFj78

The trouble is that it can still backfire and people start to think about the music - this sounds familiar, what is it? They should be watching the movie.

You've also missed the differences in the music type - underscoring, or themes. From what I read about your movies, you could be talking both. Maybe a Miami Vice style punchy, pacy theme - but for lots of your movie, the underscore has no real melody - it's not a song, just texture. Your bass flute is texture. You also have harmony and dissonance to consider - one creates tension and one releases it.

I'll ask again - have you watched the Guy Michelmore videos yet on YouTube - you will learn a great deal fro them and also, watch the Spitfire audio demos of how they compose for Film and TV - watch how they do it. Stop taking advice from people who haven't got a clue, and follow your instinct, NOT other people's products. Stop looking through YouTube videos that support your fixed view. Be willing to trust others.

Last question Ryan - what DAW does your composer use.

Try this latest Guy Michelmore video
https://youtu.be/1fpxr0wCErU

Oh okay thanks. I haven been working lately so I haven't watched his videos yet since I just got the message about the videos from you this morning, in the earlier post but I will watch it. Thanks. Also, when you say that the flute is just texture, is that a bad thing of the flute is texture? I thought that was okay.

Also, I could just have the composer do it all without giving him any examples, of what I was thinking, but what if what he comes up with is too different than what I was envisioning? He could surprise and I would like it, but what if I did not, and it was too different for me? Wouldn't it save time to give him some examples, to give him an idea of what I was thinking?

Classical type music can work for some parts, but not for all scenes I don't think. I would have to listen and see what's out there more, since most classical I know of, may not be what I was envisioning.

And I don't want to have music in the movie I don't feel it fits the scene. I wouldn't pick music just because I like it only. in fact, I don't even like the harmonica or saxophone really, I just picked them because I thought they would fit the particular context of the movie.

[Paul R Johnson]

How good do you think your judgement actually is, without prompting? A good thing we did with students was give them a movie but no soundtrack, and get them to do a music sketch of what they felt the music should be like. It was NEVER like the original. I'm not sure why you already have these ideas before you even shoot? Surely the first time music even gets considered is when you see the rushes for the first time and see what it looks like? I can't write music for something I have not seen. The pace, the feel, the circumstances and the timing would be guesswork, and some advance compositions would just be thrown away. Your ideas for low breathy sounds might work perfectly - but they might not, and you cannot tell till you see the images. I bet Morricone didn't write a note till he saw those big vistas and the empty frames with the space and the actors doing nothing. If those scenes had busy dialogue, then they would have been different. Music supports the edit.

The clip to Guy shows how strange rhythmic bangs and thuds, which seem so out of place with the footage, evolve into something huge - he didn't start with anything but a new sample package - so he used all sorts of sounds - and there's a very useful bit of chat about copyright. This is where he does a live stream of him working, complete with questions and rambling!

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

The trouble is you just don't understand music, Ryan. Music rarely inspires in a movie, that's not what it does, so using more well known music is risky, because then the music becomes a tune, or a song. It's perfectly possible to use a more well known song when the choice is right. Tubular Bells in the Exorcist, for example - and in the war movies we get Ride of the Valkyries or Barber's Adagio. 2001 gave us a Strauss Waltz and of course Also Sprach Zarathustra. The failures are songs that didn't really find a proper home.

The worst thing to do is choose a song or piece of music that you like. If you think a song fitted a movie really well, then it won't work for a different movie. If your composer writes the music, then you have to ask if you should remove the possibility of a really good piece of music, written by a competent person that fits the visuals in favour of a musically less competent persons advice that "I think it would sound great with a bass zither" I'd never dream of giving a choreographer a steer because I have zero talent in that areas. I'm incompetent to give advice.

There is scope for composition in the style of. In our industry it removes all the copyright trouble, but also enables a flavour of a style to be appreciated without the clever ones identifying it.

Here's another link to one I did - Eric Satie - I just copied his style and technique, and called it Gymnopedie No. 4 (his stopped at No.3) https://youtu.be/2YuhRskFj78

The trouble is that it can still backfire and people start to think about the music - this sounds familiar, what is it? They should be watching the movie.

You've also missed the differences in the music type - underscoring, or themes. From what I read about your movies, you could be talking both. Maybe a Miami Vice style punchy, pacy theme - but for lots of your movie, the underscore has no real melody - it's not a song, just texture. Your bass flute is texture. You also have harmony and dissonance to consider - one creates tension and one releases it.

I'll ask again - have you watched the Guy Michelmore videos yet on YouTube - you will learn a great deal fro them and also, watch the Spitfire audio demos of how they compose for Film and TV - watch how they do it. Stop taking advice from people who haven't got a clue, and follow your instinct, NOT other people's products. Stop looking through YouTube videos that support your fixed view. Be willing to trust others.

Last question Ryan - what DAW does your composer use.

Try this latest Guy Michelmore video
https://youtu.be/1fpxr0wCErU

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

How good do you think your judgement actually is, without prompting? A good thing we did with students was give them a movie but no soundtrack, and get them to do a music sketch of what they felt the music should be like. It was NEVER like the original. I'm not sure why you already have these ideas before you even shoot? Surely the first time music even gets considered is when you see the rushes for the first time and see what it looks like? I can't write music for something I have not seen. The pace, the feel, the circumstances and the timing would be guesswork, and some advance compositions would just be thrown away. Your ideas for low breathy sounds might work perfectly - but they might not, and you cannot tell till you see the images. I bet Morricone didn't write a note till he saw those big vistas and the empty frames with the space and the actors doing nothing. If those scenes had busy dialogue, then they would have been different. Music supports the edit.

The clip to Guy shows how strange rhythmic bangs and thuds, which seem so out of place with the footage, evolve into something huge - he didn't start with anything but a new sample package - so he used all sorts of sounds - and there's a very useful bit of chat about copyright. This is where he does a live stream of him working, complete with questions and rambling!

I think my judgment of what the music should be is pretty good. When you say without prompting, is prompting bad? It's just with covid now, I thought I would get some other things done for the project while I wait, and felt I could feel the scenes better even, with directing them, if I had rough drafts of what the music would be at this point as well.

[Brian Drysdale]

You can have thoughts about the music, you can use music to help you visualize the film when writing the script, but don't get too close to it, otherwise you'll end up falling for the temp tracks.

[Paul R Johnson]

What I mean Ryan is that sometimes your thought processes are very, very strange. I was looking at your past decisions and often you change your mind, or you are fixed and based on people's comments you move the goalposts. You get prompted frequently and so many things people tell you, you should have already considered. You then ask if it's bad? you do this questioning so often, it's predictable. You have the most odd way of working. You plan and plan and plan, and now your production phase has been put on hold, you've now gone into planning overdrive.

We try so hard to help, advise and guide and you totally ignore so much of it and come back with the usual "I've been told ...." by somebody with the opposite viewpoint that supports your viewpoint. It would be so easy to just say - yes Ryan, you're absolutely right, and let you wreck the few good ideas you have.

This topic started out with you not understanding how to make instruments sound natural - and you have refused and avoided explaining how you are creating your music. You talk about the samples being poor, but musically, I've tried to explain musicians do not work with single samples, but huge packages of sounds. You won't reveal any details of how the composer works, so how on earth can you guide him if you don't understand what he does?

You have wasted so much energy on one tiny aspect of the music. Chances are your composer will listen to it, and find something better.

I'm beginning to feel that there simply is no point trying to help you because you talk but never listen - why ask questions if all you really want is "great idea Ryan, go for it, you're 100% right - samples are terrible, but your orchestra you have booked will be fine."

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

What I mean Ryan is that sometimes your thought processes are very, very strange. I was looking at your past decisions and often you change your mind, or you are fixed and based on people's comments you move the goalposts. You get prompted frequently and so many things people tell you, you should have already considered. You then ask if it's bad? you do this questioning so often, it's predictable. You have the most odd way of working. You plan and plan and plan, and now your production phase has been put on hold, you've now gone into planning overdrive.

We try so hard to help, advise and guide and you totally ignore so much of it and come back with the usual "I've been told ...." by somebody with the opposite viewpoint that supports your viewpoint. It would be so easy to just say - yes Ryan, you're absolutely right, and let you wreck the few good ideas you have.

This topic started out with you not understanding how to make instruments sound natural - and you have refused and avoided explaining how you are creating your music. You talk about the samples being poor, but musically, I've tried to explain musicians do not work with single samples, but huge packages of sounds. You won't reveal any details of how the composer works, so how on earth can you guide him if you don't understand what he does?

You have wasted so much energy on one tiny aspect of the music. Chances are your composer will listen to it, and find something better.

I'm beginning to feel that there simply is no point trying to help you because you talk but never listen - why ask questions if all you really want is "great idea Ryan, go for it, you're 100% right - samples are terrible, but your orchestra you have booked will be fine."

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I was not taking advice. I do take in and consider all the advice on here, and a lot of it has been very helpfull. I am really appreciating of it. Thank you. I'm apologize for giving the wrong impression.

I don't mean for my thought process to be strange.

And I know that musicians work with huge packages of sound, but what are you trying to say, when you say that? Are you saying that we haven't picked enough instrument samples? Or are you saying he should have more to pick from?

As for details on how the composer works... Well I don't have a DAW for music but he does. He asks me for what kind of music I am going for and if I have any examples, and what kind of tone overall I am going for so far. Is there anything else I can answer about the composer's way of working specifically, that I haven't thought of perhaps?