Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?

[Paul R Johnson]

Eric Clapton - yes, I get this one, style wise. I can imagine this working for certain love scenes, or just thoughtful scenes. Best bit is it has no real melody - so nobody will be humming it.
TMNT - yep again, I can get this one - the precision (I've got loads of amazing bangs in some of my library)
The Morricone one with harmonica and delayed/reverby twangy guitar - a bit cliche, but a style I guess. Always makes me think cowboys and Arizona deserts with rocks.
The replacement killers is a collection of effects, sub bass for angst and a bit cliche ridden, but works as a style to work with.
Batman - no. 1950s/60s cartoon classics and just needs Mel Blanc's voice. It's a period style that doesn't;t relate to contemporary use of music in movies.
No idea about the Amusement piece. Totally out for me as it sounds locked in the 50s and jocular so OK for an Ealing Comedy, or cartoon, but it conjures up everything your movie doesn't for me.
Sin City - works for me except whatever that low reed is - which I personally hate and it gets in the way.
Spartan - works for me as it's moody and rhythmic but isn't memorable - which I think makes it better.
Blowout has great incidental music and again, does the job.
Incomprehensible captivity - not, in my view one of his better pieces, but it sets the scene and makes people uncomfortable, so probably out of context, is a good choice.
United 93 - another non-descript rhythmic piece - again, does what it is supposed to without going anywhere.

Red Heat just shows Horner can write noise too. Probably needs the scene for me to contextualise. The hotel is tricky for me, but the chase feel to bus station is typical, but of course cliche based.

I have seen one of those movies - just one!

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Eric Clapton - yes, I get this one, style wise. I can imagine this working for certain love scenes, or just thoughtful scenes. Best bit is it has no real melody - so nobody will be humming it.
TMNT - yep again, I can get this one - the precision (I've got loads of amazing bangs in some of my library)
The Morricone one with harmonica and delayed/reverby twangy guitar - a bit cliche, but a style I guess. Always makes me think cowboys and Arizona deserts with rocks.
The replacement killers is a collection of effects, sub bass for angst and a bit cliche ridden, but works as a style to work with.
Batman - no. 1950s/60s cartoon classics and just needs Mel Blanc's voice. It's a period style that doesn't;t relate to contemporary use of music in movies.
No idea about the Amusement piece. Totally out for me as it sounds locked in the 50s and jocular so OK for an Ealing Comedy, or cartoon, but it conjures up everything your movie doesn't for me.
Sin City - works for me except whatever that low reed is - which I personally hate and it gets in the way.
Spartan - works for me as it's moody and rhythmic but isn't memorable - which I think makes it better.
Blowout has great incidental music and again, does the job.
Incomprehensible captivity - not, in my view one of his better pieces, but it sets the scene and makes people uncomfortable, so probably out of context, is a good choice.
United 93 - another non-descript rhythmic piece - again, does what it is supposed to without going anywhere.

Red Heat just shows Horner can write noise too. Probably needs the scene for me to contextualise. The hotel is tricky for me, but the chase feel to bus station is typical, but of course cliche based.

I have seen one of those movies - just one!

Oh okay thanks. If no one will be humming that kind of guitar, is that bad?

I just want the harmonica from the Morricone track and not the twangy guitar. But I'll let the composer know that.

The Replacement Killers I wanted mainly for the low flute. I could do without sub bass unless I should have that as well.

The Batman music and the Amusement music were for a specific sequence where I wanted dark comedy music, and thought that that cartoony type music would add to it in a twisted way. But maybe something like this would be better instead?

Ennio Morricone - Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspicion - YouTube

To Die For: Main Titles - Danny Elfman's Music - YouTube

Because this is not as cartoony?

The King Kong one is one of the lesser ones for me as well, and we might not do something like that, as perhaps the United 93 and Blow Out tracks are enough for inspiration.

When you say the low reed in the Sin City track, do you mean the saxophone? That's what I thought was a bass sax, when I wrote bass sax on my list, but you said there is no such thing as a bass sax, right, so that might be a baritone then? Unless you mean a different reed?

I also posted some other temp tracks in the previous post, since.

[Paul R Johnson]

We always take a step forward then go back two.

I deliberately said low reed because you cannot tell with certainty. A Bass saxophone certainly exists, but needs two people to carry it, and is a rare and terribly expensive beast and very limited in what it can do. It could have been a baritone sax, or maybe a bassoon - who can tell? I thought we'd explained all this?

There's so little point posting all these examples without the context being stated. If you give an entire track to the composer because you like the bass flute, you're giving the composer such a hard job. They are also going to be very difficult to imagine in the same movie. If you take the music for an entire film, there are always repeated motifs, and variations of some components, but so much similarity. You cannot have a light section from one movie and and heavy section from another - it doesn't work.

When you write a theme, you want people to hum it. When you write a cue that makes people get on edge, and know something nasty is coming, the last thing you want is them humming it. Everyone can hum the der-der, der-der-der-der from Jaws, but most people could not hum the bit that follows it.

The sub bass adds to the unease - you feel it, but don't really hear it - so it's presence is good when it does a job.

There is funny music and there is odd music. Your choices were children's cartoon cliches - in what the music does and the style of recording. I get the sense that your steer to the composer is based on a very unsound base. If you put all these styles together it's very genre unfriendly. You're not giving the composer things he can work with. It's like you are collecting your favourite flavours and want the chef to use them all - irrespective of their origin. It's a confusing mess of disparate ideas. Every time I think I have a handle on what you want, you surprise me with more and more confusion.

You have the same way of dealing with script - plus the confusion in story telling we see in everything - and I'm sad to say a constant misunderstanding of everything we say. You want the harmonica, but not the tangy guitar? Weird - they worked together really well? It points the way to a musical mess.

EDIT
The Dirty Harry thing only really works in the context of the period and the jazz of the time which the composer took advantage of. I think it's not suitable for modern audiences now. That piano thing I felt was awful - I hated it, but maybe in the context of the movie it worked? I have no idea. The other was OK, but of course genre specific. Incidental music, of the Robocop ilk - as to it's style in your movie? I don't know.


Every Week Eric Matyas puts up links to his music - why don't you go through his stuff. The City material sounds far move Police detective story than all these movie clips, and he only wants donations and credit.

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

We always take a step forward then go back two.

I deliberately said low reed because you cannot tell with certainty. A Bass saxophone certainly exists, but needs two people to carry it, and is a rare and terribly expensive beast and very limited in what it can do. It could have been a baritone sax, or maybe a bassoon - who can tell? I thought we'd explained all this?

There's so little point posting all these examples without the context being stated. If you give an entire track to the composer because you like the bass flute, you're giving the composer such a hard job. They are also going to be very difficult to imagine in the same movie. If you take the music for an entire film, there are always repeated motifs, and variations of some components, but so much similarity. You cannot have a light section from one movie and and heavy section from another - it doesn't work.

When you write a theme, you want people to hum it. When you write a cue that makes people get on edge, and know something nasty is coming, the last thing you want is them humming it. Everyone can hum the der-der, der-der-der-der from Jaws, but most people could not hum the bit that follows it.

The sub bass adds to the unease - you feel it, but don't really hear it - so it's presence is good when it does a job.

There is funny music and there is odd music. Your choices were children's cartoon cliches - in what the music does and the style of recording. I get the sense that your steer to the composer is based on a very unsound base. If you put all these styles together it's very genre unfriendly. You're not giving the composer things he can work with. It's like you are collecting your favourite flavours and want the chef to use them all - irrespective of their origin. It's a confusing mess of disparate ideas. Every time I think I have a handle on what you want, you surprise me with more and more confusion.

You have the same way of dealing with script - plus the confusion in story telling we see in everything - and I'm sad to say a constant misunderstanding of everything we say. You want the harmonica, but not the tangy guitar? Weird - they worked together really well? It points the way to a musical mess.

EDIT
The Dirty Harry thing only really works in the context of the period and the jazz of the time which the composer took advantage of. I think it's not suitable for modern audiences now. That piano thing I felt was awful - I hated it, but maybe in the context of the movie it worked? I have no idea. The other was OK, but of course genre specific. Incidental music, of the Robocop ilk - as to it's style in your movie? I don't know.


Every Week Eric Matyas puts up links to his music - why don't you go through his stuff. The City material sounds far move Police detective story than all these movie clips, and he only wants donations and credit.

Oh okay thanks, I will check out his stuff.

The instrument sounds a lot more like a bass sax to me compared to a bassoon, but if it's a bassoon, then it's a bassoon. We can try either and see how it sounds.

But when I give the temp track to the composer, I do tell him what parts of it I like and to go for something in that inspiration. Do I have to like every single thing about the track then?

And if you say I shouldn't take tracks from other movies, because they are too different, I can't just give the composers temp tracks from all one movie, because then it feels like then you got all your inspiration all from one movie soundtrack. Unless that's good?

But the composer does have the script, and knows the contexts, so couldn't I just ask him to repeat motifs and blend?

[Brian Drysdale]

Usually a temp track works as whole, it's not usually a bit of works with the film because a section sounds good. More it works with the action and mood of the film and connects with it.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. I cannot find exact temp tracks as to what I want. So is it better than I just describe the sounds I want? For example for the temp track for The Replacement Killers, is it best instead of showing him the track, I just say I want a low bass flute sound of some sort, played in a mysterious suspenseful way, along with other instruments of course?

But as far as needing to use a whole temp track as inspiration, what if I do not like the whole track though? For example, here's one I like that I thought would fit some of my scenes, and I like the start of it:

To Die For: Main Titles - Danny Elfman's Music - YouTube

But at 1:04 into the track, it goes into heavy metal, and I do not want the heavy metal. I prefer everything before that though. So is so wrong to cut off the heavy metal part, if I give him a temp track of it? Why do we have to be inspired by the entire track?

[Brian Drysdale]

I think this was discussed before, you can edit music tracks assist the timing and to match the mood in the edit. However, there's no point in going over old ground, since you don't seem have the skill set to do this,

[Ryan Elder]

For sure, I can edit them to match the length of a sequence of how long I want it. If a temp track is too long though, I might have to repeat parts of it of course though.

But since it was said before that my temp tracks are too different, I don't know where to find temp tracks that would be similar enough to match each other, since I get the idea for tracks from different sources. How does one find temp tracks that are similar enough to each other?

[Paul R Johnson]

I think I might have realised the problem. We're talking blindly about 'temp tracks' with our understanding of them, and not realised Ryan may not have realised that temp tracks are not a defined, factual and quantifiable item, but a loose description of a problem solver. I looked back at my own temp track usage, in terms of ones I received, and ones I generated.

The critical thing I think, is that they are all designed for a purpose, and are a way that can often allow parallel development of the editing, sound, effects and process without everyone wasting time doing the wrong things, or working on assumptions later to be proven wrong.

A temporary audio track can provide the editor with the 'feel'. The context to allow editing to start. On the other hand, the visuals with the attached temporary audio track can then allow the composer to work properly - seeing hit points and the purpose of some of the audio cues that have to be built.

The director has a scene in his mind where the two characters enter the frame from the side, hold hands and slowly walk off into the distance. It even says that in the script. What it doesn't say is if it's a Brief Encounter style walk off, or something much lighter, maybe like singing in the rain? So are we talking about those rain scenes in my favourite, Blade Runner, or Gene Kelly jumping around, or something very personal and sad?

You find a nice audio track - preferably NOT from anything well known, but because that can come with the context from that movie. You want something emotive but anonymous. Something that can be faded out to match the length of the supplied video clip. The audio file without any video is pretty pointless. How does it help? You have one piece of music, and you're supposed to produce another???

If you do NOT have the visuals, you will perhaps have the visual version of the audio temp track? The storyboard, or at the very least a VERY detailed explanation of the scene, and it's placement in the entire movie, that itemises every scene, and how they lead into each other. This is critical for producing music that has a common anchor.

If you as Director, have particular wishes for the music - then ten seconds of a windy flute, or the screechy strings from Hitchcock movie will do the job - NOT the entire piece. If you envisage a strange droning sound to make the viewer feel melancholy when viewing a vista of a sand storm in a desert, find that sound and give them the sound - not the entire track. REMEMBER these soundtracks for the movie were written with the visuals in mind - the entire cue won't work out of context, but the sound you like might?

So the editor wants the feel for the scene, so much easier with a piece of music in their heads. The composer of the music needs the visuals. The trouble is there won't be the sound for the editor, or pictures for the composer - so temp tracks can induce the feel both need - BUT - they are a guide, NOT a prescription.

In Ryan's movie we don't even have the finished script, so we have no coherent story to follow. In this case, where the music has to be started early (far too early in my view at the moment - as if things get changed the music can be wrecked) then the only sensible way is a table showing the scenes, the action, the visuals and the sound, with some notes. Then the editor and composer have the same starting points.

Lets use this as an example.
SCENE 1 - BUSY 1980s CITY STREET - FAST, PACY, RHYTHMIC - Music needs to show how hectic and busy the scene is, with so many people rushing about going to work, getting on and off trams, taxi cabs rushing up to kerbs, people going in and out of slyscrapers

SCENE 2 - EMPTY VISTA OF A DESERT, CAMERA PANNING SLOWLY RIGHT TO LEFT, WITH TUMBLEWEED. - SLOW, UNCOMFORTABLE, DISSONANT, EMPTY, WAITING FOR SOMETHING TO HAPPEN - Music emphasises the contrast between the city, make the viewer wonder who or what is about to happen - ideally Wild West style harmonica, and maybe haunting fluttering from low flute type sound??

SCENE 2a - OLD DUSTY VEHICLE ENTERS THE SCENE ANDTRAVELS TOWARDS THE CAMERA. IT STOPS IN A CLOUD OF DUST AND OUR CHARACTER GETS OUT, WEARING CITY CLOTHES AND VAGUELY CLINT-EASTWOODESQUE. The music tells us something important is coming with a reveal, and needs to build to the climax of the car door opening and the character stepping out into the heat - ending with a pause as he looks around. Maybe a rattlesnake sound as he gets out of the vehicle?

SCENE 3 - POLICE STATION IN THE BUSY CITY - A LARGE OFFICE WITH BUSTLING PEOPLE - The music has elements of the original music in SC1 but is less overt, but similar - just calmed down a little. Maybe a rhythmic percussive feel?? (Example clip from 48 hours attached for the example of the rhythm)


That 48 hours clip would not be a temp track, but more of an example. If the composer got stuck, then he could ask for an example of what the director thought for the others.

They're tools to help editing and composition, not things to be copied.

Ryan seems to have got the process mixed up - I guess in reality, in this project, the sound needs to be set aside till something actually gets shot that can be worked to, or everyone will have to do things twice.

[Brian Drysdale]

Temp tracks don't need to be all the same, although they should reflect the mood and emotions of the scenes and give the film its feel.

Your composer will make it consistent throughout.

EDIT, I posted this after having written part of it, then doing some domestic stuff before finishing. it. As Paul says, you need to understand how temp tracks get used. An example where you can compere is 2001, which uses the temps tracks in the final soundtrack, but now you can buy Alex North's music for the film, so you can compare the music. Some classical composers did very well out of that soundtrack.especially György Ligeti and Richard Strauss..

2001 - A Space Odyssey - Alex North title - YouTube

Alex North's score is pretty standard Hollywood big epic, but you can hear how things change from "temp". He did the score to Spartacus, which may explain why Kubrick selected him.

[Paul R Johnson]

My preference is this version

YouTube (Short URL)

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay. Well as far as the composer is, at making things blend together, is it a difficult task to try to ask them to blend serious music in some tracks, with over the top dark comedy music in other tracks, as long as the context calls for that kind of shift?

I could give him temp tracks of each, and they do sound different, but I would just ask make something similar to both, but at the same time, make it feel like they are from the same movie, if that helps.

[Paul R Johnson]

It's the musical equivalent of having your granny write one the scenes in the script - you may well have the same characters and sets, but it doesn't blend.

Think about the entire music content of your movie as a classical work. They have a number of sections. You might have Vivace, then Allegretto, then Presto, followed by Allegro - all different tempos and content, BUT, all part of the same symphony.

If you have a piece simply slotted in because you want it, it's a musical mistake. Your composer will be choosing keys that fit together properly and genre typical differences. The slow scene, the romantic scene, the angry scene, the chase scene etc - I cannot imagine a 50s cartoon scene working with some of those other angry or lyrical scenes. They're musical opposites and I would have no idea how to flow cartoon comedy into rhythmic cinematic. It's going to be difficult enough with your bass flute and harmonica.

You have a movie with murders, violence, nudity and comedy? Seriously?

They MUST all have some elements in common - instrumentation, style, key, tempo. You are taking this too far again. You are intending micro managing the composer. It won't work. That I am sure of. Do you know any movies where the music selection is this random in nature. I'm thinking about the soundtrack albums available for most big movies. How many have these total changes in style apart from Jukebox movies.

If you went to see ZZ Top, how would the audience react if they played a slow gentle waltz in the middle or did a disco number? Metal Bands can do the occasional slow song, as long as it's a slow METAL song, and not Dolly Parton. She'd struggle if she had to sing the Ace of Spades?

[Ryan Elder]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

It's the musical equivalent of having your granny write one the scenes in the script - you may well have the same characters and sets, but it doesn't blend.

Think about the entire music content of your movie as a classical work. They have a number of sections. You might have Vivace, then Allegretto, then Presto, followed by Allegro - all different tempos and content, BUT, all part of the same symphony.

If you have a piece simply slotted in because you want it, it's a musical mistake. Your composer will be choosing keys that fit together properly and genre typical differences. The slow scene, the romantic scene, the angry scene, the chase scene etc - I cannot imagine a 50s cartoon scene working with some of those other angry or lyrical scenes. They're musical opposites and I would have no idea how to flow cartoon comedy into rhythmic cinematic. It's going to be difficult enough with your bass flute and harmonica.

You have a movie with murders, violence, nudity and comedy? Seriously?

They MUST all have some elements in common - instrumentation, style, key, tempo. You are taking this too far again. You are intending micro managing the composer. It won't work. That I am sure of. Do you know any movies where the music selection is this random in nature. I'm thinking about the soundtrack albums available for most big movies. How many have these total changes in style apart from Jukebox movies.

If you went to see ZZ Top, how would the audience react if they played a slow gentle waltz in the middle or did a disco number? Metal Bands can do the occasional slow song, as long as it's a slow METAL song, and not Dolly Parton. She'd struggle if she had to sing the Ace of Spades?

There is no nudity. I was told to put nudity in but I don't have any so far. I can try to think of movies that are serious but have dark comedy music in them as well. But let's say I want dark comedy music... where do you find tracks that would fit dark comedy, unless you go for music that is somewhat cartoony?

And why would it be difficult for a composer to work in a bass flute and harmonica? Other movie scores have had those, so I don't see why it's so difficult.

One movie that came to mind just now is Dick Tracy (1990). The music is mostly serious and exciting, but they do have moments of comedic music here and there, when they want to be more comedic. Another movie that also comes to mind is 15 Minutes (2001), which had dark comedy music in certain moments, and then serious music in the more serious moments. I guess Sin City (2005), might count as well?

[Brian Drysdale]

The music with those instruments may have musicians playing them and how the musicians perform them is important, as is the genre of music they're playing.

Larry Adler - Genevieve Waltz, from the Film ''Genevieve'' (Mouth Organ) (Mundharmonika) (MFP) - YouTube

Blues harmonica solo - YouTube

For a modern urban film, the type music you'd play will be different to that of an Italian western (or Once Upon A Time in America), which tends to be "operatic" in nature.

Since your film appears to be a police procedural, which different genre to the examples you've given

Dick Tracy is about a comic strip character, so having comedic sections can be appropriate, since he's not a dark character like Batman. Both used Danny Elfman at the time.

I think this whole instrumentation thing is being done too early in the process. You have to let a film breathe allowing it to have a life if its own, everything is getting too locked in for a film that, in the end, may work out differently to the way you imagine it.

Especially, since you seem worrying about allowing it to become a rape and revenge film..

One feature that the above mentioned films have is a sense of style, which your film doesn't currently seem to have. That's something that you personally have to put in and it won't come from listening on other people's opinions, either you have style sense or you don't.

,