Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?

Paul R Johnson · November 21st, 2020, 01:41 AM

We are slowly getting there. You were asked for things you thought good, you provided them. That’s good. Now your job is to forget music for now.

Does guy in his videos even use the word samples? I don’t think he does when describing sounds. I’ve got things that just have descriptive names. Swarms, ethereal, world, etc etc. Does your composer need more? Yes. Always a growing collection because you always need more. The difficulty is in remembering where certain sound are!

Ryan Elder · November 21st, 2020, 01:49 AM

Oh okay, why is the difficulty remembering where certain sound are?

Paul R Johnson · November 21st, 2020, 02:10 AM

Because writing down wonderful things you discover never works. When I want say, the sound of space, I go to absynth, ethereal world and a few others but there are thousands of sounds to audition. My best purchase was a kontakt S61 keyboard that has a built in browser and it stores a tiny bit of each sound you can listen to quickly. If you dial up program 445 it might take ten seconds to load in thousands of samples and the firs5 keyboard press says no, you you try 446 an d so on.the keyboard lets you pick an instrument group then a style then presents a list of every sound it thinks matches, and then you can quickly turn a knob and hear them one by one, and reject them so fast. If you search for flute, then evolving, then low, you might get one of the sounds you would like. Most of these sounds you will never even know you have. I’m now even starting my search at z and working back, because often I find a nice one beginning with b and never hear the others.

I’ve just bought a Ronin S, and searching for videos I came across a guy called Neil Fisher who makes really good videos and he lives in ............ Saskatoon!

Ryan Elder · November 21st, 2020, 11:23 AM

Oh okay, Neil Fisher sounds really familiar, and I think I worked with him before on someone else's project. Thanks!

How do you remember where certain sounds are if writing them down doesn't work? When you say does the guy in the video even use word samples, what do you mean by 'word samples', in this case?

Paul R Johnson · November 21st, 2020, 04:02 PM

If you have maybe 4 thousand instruments to choose from, writing things down is impossible, hence why I love the auditioning system. I could write down the names but finding the right sample is all about auditioning. Some of the VSTi instruments I have have page after page of sounds - maybe 8 or 9 hundred in total. Most are also editable - so you spend far too long looking and listening. On the word samples question, what I meant is that he does not use the word 'samples' - we talk about sounds, so if he needs strings he goes to violas - but he probably has maybe 40 good viola sounds to choose from, so will have favourites. My favourites change frequently. I bought the Abbey Rd package recently - I think three hundred pounds, and it's full of orchestral and precision sounds recorded in the famous Abbey Rd studios, but I think I like the Albion package better for what I do. What I know for certain is that I probably have the sound somewhere, finding it is crazily difficult. Every day, it seems, new package appear, and some offer very tempting offers from a few pounds to hundreds and if one turns up just when you are struggling for a sound, your credit card takes a hit. Sometimes you can spend hundreds to get one sound if it's important.

Ryan Elder · November 21st, 2020, 04:07 PM

Oh okay. Well in order to guide the composer in the right direction for sounds I want, would giving him temp track examples, help even more possibly then, because then maybe we can locate sounds similar to those of the instrument, in the temp tracks, rather than just tell him I like this instrument, etc?

Brian Drysdale · November 22nd, 2020, 02:00 AM

That makes more sense than what you've been arguing about.

Just give the composer the temp tracks and let them get on with their job.

Ryan Elder · November 22nd, 2020, 02:03 AM

Oh okay, but I thought that's what I was doing, but it was said on here before to explain to the composer what I want, because that's better than giving temp tracks.

Brian Drysdale · November 22nd, 2020, 02:10 AM

You've confused things, as per usual, by by thinking everything is a simple, single approach, There's no point in giving a list instruments and the composer not knowing how they're played and the other aspects required in a piece of music.

There is also a broad discussion with a composer regarding the music for a film.

Some composers don't like temp tracks, again you need to discuss that with the composer. With one such composer he watched the film once with the temp tracks, then I gave him a copy without any temp tracks.

Paul R Johnson · November 22nd, 2020, 03:26 AM

A steer is always good, instructions are not. Your orchestra list, for example, is pointless. It’s like your store cupboard of supplies in the kitchen. John williams probably has a list like that, but are you going to get the canteen bar song from the first Star Wars or Schindler’s List?

It’s the artist’s pallette. When he is writing it, and needs a B from the flute it cannot play, you stick in an alto flute. Only if this can’t play it would you try to find a bass flute. When notes get low of course, you might even be able to ditch the bass flute with a digeredoo.

Ryan Elder · November 22nd, 2020, 08:36 AM

Oh yeah, I wasn't going to just give him a list of instruments and that would be it. The temp tracks have the instruments in, and how I want them to be played and sound of course more so.

The list of instruments was just in case he didn't have any from the temp tracks I gave him, in which case we would get them.

Paul R Johnson · November 22nd, 2020, 09:39 AM

Danger Will Robinson - you're falling into the trap of prescription again. How you want them to be played and sound is a non-musical viewpoint again. The composer has the skills to make sounds blend, or not as they need - you don't.

Temp tracks set mood and maybe suggest feel - but they are not to mimic, copy or just re-arrange. They're about telling the composer this isn't a slow and smoochy scene but a punchy aggressive one. Maybe the sound makes you angry, sad, on edge - that kind of thing. You're not supposed to copy them literally.

For instance - why did you include come of those instruments? Do you need an electric guitar? If you were booking musicians to play them, if the composition didn't need them, that's a mistake. In the real world, if budgets are low, you create the music in a machine and there it stays. Sometimes you need real sounds, but sometimes when budgets allow, you get in musicians. A string patch saves perhaps 6 musicians - or maybe 30? So until you have the parts, how do you know how many real people you need. Frankly, to the smaller scale composer, real musicians are total pains in many cases. Sometimes, you just need them. Other times, you don't. Your composer is in control of this. If you want to help, you need to generate the funds he needs, or you MUST tell him he cannot have real players. Maybe your composer is at home with string quartets and wants to use his four friends - this may be perfect for the movie, but of course, you might struggle with budget. If you cannot afford four people, then he needs to know from the very start. Plenty for you to do setting the framework, organising the funding and gently suggesting style - then you go away and listen to the first version - then you agree on the number of revisions to stop you micromanaging and making the quality drop.

Ryan Elder · November 22nd, 2020, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Danger Will Robinson - you're falling into the trap of prescription again. How you want them to be played and sound is a non-musical viewpoint again. The composer has the skills to make sounds blend, or not as they need - you don't.

Temp tracks set mood and maybe suggest feel - but they are not to mimic, copy or just re-arrange. They're about telling the composer this isn't a slow and smoochy scene but a punchy aggressive one. Maybe the sound makes you angry, sad, on edge - that kind of thing. You're not supposed to copy them literally.

For instance - why did you include come of those instruments? Do you need an electric guitar? If you were booking musicians to play them, if the composition didn't need them, that's a mistake. In the real world, if budgets are low, you create the music in a machine and there it stays. Sometimes you need real sounds, but sometimes when budgets allow, you get in musicians. A string patch saves perhaps 6 musicians - or maybe 30? So until you have the parts, how do you know how many real people you need. Frankly, to the smaller scale composer, real musicians are total pains in many cases. Sometimes, you just need them. Other times, you don't. Your composer is in control of this. If you want to help, you need to generate the funds he needs, or you MUST tell him he cannot have real players. Maybe your composer is at home with string quartets and wants to use his four friends - this may be perfect for the movie, but of course, you might struggle with budget. If you cannot afford four people, then he needs to know from the very start. Plenty for you to do setting the framework, organising the funding and gently suggesting style - then you go away and listen to the first version - then you agree on the number of revisions to stop you micromanaging and making the quality drop.

Oh yeah, I know I am not suppose to copy them literally, but I don't want them to be so different that they are not remotely what I am looking for either though, of course.

Yes I am not going to book musicians and most of the sound is going to created in a machine. I chose the electric guitar because I wanted an electric distorted sound for some of the music in certain scenes, and since the composer can play the guitar and has one, I thought the electric guitar would work for that. I also thought the electric guitar would have a more romantic feel, for some of the earlier scenes as well. But the other instruments will be created in a machine though.

As for why I included the other instruments it's hard to put into words but I thought they would create the feel and mood I wanted for the scenes I had in mind for different ones. For example the cello has a more sad and dramatic sound, at least to me, so I thought it would be good for one of the instruments in a more sad and dramatic scene.

Paul R Johnson · November 22nd, 2020, 10:38 AM

Indeed it would - but the snag is getting from section to section in a cohesive way. Otherwise you end up with a mish-mash of clashing styles. You're still thinking like YOU are the composer. I can imagine some guitar sounds being romantic but others less so.

DO you have examples of the tracks you are thinking of using for his inspiration?

Ryan Elder · November 22nd, 2020, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

Indeed it would - but the snag is getting from section to section in a cohesive way. Otherwise you end up with a mish-mash of clashing styles. You're still thinking like YOU are the composer. I can imagine some guitar sounds being romantic but others less so.

DO you have examples of the tracks you are thinking of using for his inspiration?

Oh okay, thanks. I I don't want to be the composer of course, I just want to work with him correctly and communicate correctly with him. I'm still looking for one for the more romantic one, but so far, these two tracks are kind of what I was thinking:

But I am trying to find something a little different perhaps still.

For the more distorted electric guitar sound, I was thinking something more like this

Or maybe an electric cello would better for that more electric distorted sound but just guessing. But the composer does have an electric guitar though.

And there are these two temp tracks from before:

Here's some that were meant for dark comedy other another parts:

Here are some others so far for more serious or exciting moments:

November 21st, 2020, 01:41 AM	#76
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? We are slowly getting there. You were asked for things you thought good, you provided them. That’s good. Now your job is to forget music for now. Does guy in his videos even use the word samples? I don’t think he does when describing sounds. I’ve got things that just have descriptive names. Swarms, ethereal, world, etc etc. Does your composer need more? Yes. Always a growing collection because you always need more. The difficulty is in remembering where certain sound are!

November 21st, 2020, 01:49 AM	#77
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Oh okay, why is the difficulty remembering where certain sound are?

November 21st, 2020, 02:10 AM	#78
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Because writing down wonderful things you discover never works. When I want say, the sound of space, I go to absynth, ethereal world and a few others but there are thousands of sounds to audition. My best purchase was a kontakt S61 keyboard that has a built in browser and it stores a tiny bit of each sound you can listen to quickly. If you dial up program 445 it might take ten seconds to load in thousands of samples and the firs5 keyboard press says no, you you try 446 an d so on.the keyboard lets you pick an instrument group then a style then presents a list of every sound it thinks matches, and then you can quickly turn a knob and hear them one by one, and reject them so fast. If you search for flute, then evolving, then low, you might get one of the sounds you would like. Most of these sounds you will never even know you have. I’m now even starting my search at z and working back, because often I find a nice one beginning with b and never hear the others. I’ve just bought a Ronin S, and searching for videos I came across a guy called Neil Fisher who makes really good videos and he lives in ............ Saskatoon!

November 21st, 2020, 11:23 AM	#79
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Oh okay, Neil Fisher sounds really familiar, and I think I worked with him before on someone else's project. Thanks! How do you remember where certain sounds are if writing them down doesn't work? When you say does the guy in the video even use word samples, what do you mean by 'word samples', in this case?

November 21st, 2020, 04:02 PM	#80
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? If you have maybe 4 thousand instruments to choose from, writing things down is impossible, hence why I love the auditioning system. I could write down the names but finding the right sample is all about auditioning. Some of the VSTi instruments I have have page after page of sounds - maybe 8 or 9 hundred in total. Most are also editable - so you spend far too long looking and listening. On the word samples question, what I meant is that he does not use the word 'samples' - we talk about sounds, so if he needs strings he goes to violas - but he probably has maybe 40 good viola sounds to choose from, so will have favourites. My favourites change frequently. I bought the Abbey Rd package recently - I think three hundred pounds, and it's full of orchestral and precision sounds recorded in the famous Abbey Rd studios, but I think I like the Albion package better for what I do. What I know for certain is that I probably have the sound somewhere, finding it is crazily difficult. Every day, it seems, new package appear, and some offer very tempting offers from a few pounds to hundreds and if one turns up just when you are struggling for a sound, your credit card takes a hit. Sometimes you can spend hundreds to get one sound if it's important.

November 21st, 2020, 04:07 PM	#81
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Oh okay. Well in order to guide the composer in the right direction for sounds I want, would giving him temp track examples, help even more possibly then, because then maybe we can locate sounds similar to those of the instrument, in the temp tracks, rather than just tell him I like this instrument, etc?

November 22nd, 2020, 02:00 AM	#82
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? That makes more sense than what you've been arguing about. Just give the composer the temp tracks and let them get on with their job.

November 22nd, 2020, 02:03 AM	#83
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Oh okay, but I thought that's what I was doing, but it was said on here before to explain to the composer what I want, because that's better than giving temp tracks.

November 22nd, 2020, 02:10 AM	#84
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,143	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? You've confused things, as per usual, by by thinking everything is a simple, single approach, There's no point in giving a list instruments and the composer not knowing how they're played and the other aspects required in a piece of music. There is also a broad discussion with a composer regarding the music for a film. Some composers don't like temp tracks, again you need to discuss that with the composer. With one such composer he watched the film once with the temp tracks, then I gave him a copy without any temp tracks.

November 22nd, 2020, 03:26 AM	#85
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? A steer is always good, instructions are not. Your orchestra list, for example, is pointless. It’s like your store cupboard of supplies in the kitchen. John williams probably has a list like that, but are you going to get the canteen bar song from the first Star Wars or Schindler’s List? It’s the artist’s pallette. When he is writing it, and needs a B from the flute it cannot play, you stick in an alto flute. Only if this can’t play it would you try to find a bass flute. When notes get low of course, you might even be able to ditch the bass flute with a digeredoo.

November 22nd, 2020, 08:36 AM	#86
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,880	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Oh yeah, I wasn't going to just give him a list of instruments and that would be it. The temp tracks have the instruments in, and how I want them to be played and sound of course more so. The list of instruments was just in case he didn't have any from the temp tracks I gave him, in which case we would get them.

November 22nd, 2020, 09:39 AM	#87
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Danger Will Robinson - you're falling into the trap of prescription again. How you want them to be played and sound is a non-musical viewpoint again. The composer has the skills to make sounds blend, or not as they need - you don't. Temp tracks set mood and maybe suggest feel - but they are not to mimic, copy or just re-arrange. They're about telling the composer this isn't a slow and smoochy scene but a punchy aggressive one. Maybe the sound makes you angry, sad, on edge - that kind of thing. You're not supposed to copy them literally. For instance - why did you include come of those instruments? Do you need an electric guitar? If you were booking musicians to play them, if the composition didn't need them, that's a mistake. In the real world, if budgets are low, you create the music in a machine and there it stays. Sometimes you need real sounds, but sometimes when budgets allow, you get in musicians. A string patch saves perhaps 6 musicians - or maybe 30? So until you have the parts, how do you know how many real people you need. Frankly, to the smaller scale composer, real musicians are total pains in many cases. Sometimes, you just need them. Other times, you don't. Your composer is in control of this. If you want to help, you need to generate the funds he needs, or you MUST tell him he cannot have real players. Maybe your composer is at home with string quartets and wants to use his four friends - this may be perfect for the movie, but of course, you might struggle with budget. If you cannot afford four people, then he needs to know from the very start. Plenty for you to do setting the framework, organising the funding and gently suggesting style - then you go away and listen to the first version - then you agree on the number of revisions to stop you micromanaging and making the quality drop.

November 22nd, 2020, 10:38 AM	#89
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,015	Re: Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this? Indeed it would - but the snag is getting from section to section in a cohesive way. Otherwise you end up with a mish-mash of clashing styles. You're still thinking like YOU are the composer. I can imagine some guitar sounds being romantic but others less so. DO you have examples of the tracks you are thinking of using for his inspiration?