High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

[Matteo Pozzi]

Hi to all yesterday I was looking through the web and I've seen this:
http://www.alt-vision.com/pdf/HanVis...O-14M%20DS.pdf
it use a foveon 4.5mp aps-c 3layer technology (14mp) and can produce 1280x720 at 19.2 frame at second so if we want to have a cinemascope 2.35:1
camera at 1280 x 545 we will have more or less 30frame /sec
I've seen the power and the limits of that sensor (I'm thinking to buy a new sigma DP1 camera http://www.sigma-dp1.com/) and the color rendition /dynamic range is amazing.... it will only need good light because it is not a bayer pattern cmos sensor and because the camera that use it with lens cost 800$ maybe it is not too expansive to adapt it for the elphel 353 that have all the power to use it at the max! here are some link of the video that the sigma dp1 p&s camera is able to do 320x240 :
http://www.rytterfalk.com/movie/4.AVI
http://www.rytterfalk.com/movie/1.AVI
http://www.rytterfalk.com/movie/2.AVI
http://www.rytterfalk.com/movie/3.AVI
http://www.rytterfalk.com/movie/5.AVI

[Jose A. Garcia]

I also love all Foveon sensors. They can produce amazing images full of colour and detail, but they have serious problems delivering enough fps for our purposes. You say it cannot give more than 19fps at 1280x720... Did you check if it can be rescaled to 1280x545 and if that resolution would actually give something close to 25 or 30fps? Because we're talking about the lower limits of HD here and when you go to foveon website and check the sensors specs it says 27fps at VGA res. That's quite small.

I wonder why CMOS developers don't create a cinema 35mm sized 1080p 30fps sensor (or even 720p). It wouldn't be hard to do at all. They're actually building them smaller, which is also harder to do. I mean, bigger pixel size would lead to more light and less noise, bigger sensors would lead to that DOF we're all looking for. But I guess they believe that kind of sensors have little or no market at all. Or maybe they'd be easier to build but also more expensive, because of the size.

Well... If Foveon released such sensor... Then it would be just perfect for all of us.

[Régine Weinberg]

so quiet now

[Régine Weinberg]

There is so much buzz in the Sumix thread,
but you have to have streampix running on Windows
and as compression is software you need a fast laptop,
a real fast one, you a nuclear power device to be
portable or a small robot aside to have all that batterie power
shooting in the real-world.

Ephel does all in silicon, for me she wins hands down
But why no new on her here.

With a lens with an viewfinder she could be fine,
some smallish 104 or whatever board some smallish disk
maybe running a fast Linux and some goodies, Colour balance etc et voila

[Jose A. Garcia]

I'm sorry to say it and the last thing I want is a fight between Elphel supporters and Sumix fans, but the Sumix cam has many advantages compared to the Elphel. First of all, it has GigE interface, so bandwidth is not a problem. It shoots uncompressed 12bit, uncompressed 8bit and lossless compressed 8bit (hardware compression) in FullHD up to 60p. You just need StreamPix if you want to record directly to Cineform and there are a few projects already running to create free software exclusively for filmmaking purposes. It also has a larger CMOS, so you don't need an adaptor to have a DOF close to 35mm film.

I've always been a supporter of the Elphel. It was the first affordable camera to offer a real solution for people who wanted something different and closer to film, but I have to say it needs a radical change if it wants to be able to compete with other (better) options.

From here I encourage the Elphel guys to improve their cam so it can really be a great option if you want to shoot digital cinema. The key?? FullHD, at least 30fps and the most important feature: 1" or 35mm sized sensor. Offer that camera below $3000 and you'll have a huge number of happy customers.

[Serge Victorovich]

Originally Posted by Jose A. Garcia

1" or 35mm sized sensor. Offer that camera below $3000 and you'll have a huge number of happy customers.

Your wish is outside of reality:) If i remember correctly Andrey said about 1" kodak sensor cost more than $3K.

My wish for Elphel camera same as 2 years ago:
CineformRAW in silicon and Altasens 2/3" at $3K :)

[Jose A. Garcia]

Are you sure it's not possible? I mean, I guess it wasn't possible 1 or 2 years ago, but new CMOS sensors are being developed and production costs are getting lower. If it's not possible now, it'll be in little time.

If you really want Cineform RAW and Altasens 2/3" at exactly $3K, buy the Sumix cam and StreamPix 3. Compression is made outside the camera, but you just need a core2duo 2,4Ghz laptop. You may think that's exactly the problem because you want hardware compression, but if you think about it you'll need even a faster computer if you want to edit 1080p RAW.

Anyway if you want to get rid of the computer you would need a viewfinder, internal software interface, internal HDD or Compact Flash slots, battery and many other things (a REC start/stop button, lol) and all those things would increase the price a lot. Why do you need internal cineform compression if you still need a computer for everything else?

Maybe your wish is more possible now in terms of hardware, but when it comes to money it seems you're asking for a camera between SI2KMini and SI2K for like $10,000 less than the Mini. That's quite unrealistic.

[Oscar Spierenburg]

Just a quick note from me.
I wish we could gather a little group with people who view these things as a continuously developing project. Andrey (from Elphel) is the impersonation of 'open source', so it's a unique opportunity to help develop this thing.
When we start making a list of what the camera it should be, you're not getting the point of an open source project. Help.... don't demand.
I know Andrey would encourage a group on this forum who want to push this thing forward. Unfortunately, I'm not a software developer, so I can only work on optics.
This camera has improved allot from the beginning, so don't think this'll be the last version you'll see.
I think the Sumix cameras should encourage this project, not discourage us.

[Régine Weinberg]

sounds great, sumix is not bad at all, but has no compression in silicon.
you need a power hungry laptop or micro motherboard box with windofs and streampix. grr Silicon is great but out of range cash wise
sorry a HL Canon is not so sexy but for film making not sooo bad
the ephel has great potential I guess

[Jose A. Garcia]

Again Ronald, the Sumix cam does lossless compression in silicon.

[Matteo Pozzi]

good point Oscar I'm not a software developer also but I can contribute on other side of the project. I haven't a lot of time in this period and this is the only reason I haven't already bought the camera! and also money :-) but I check once a week the progress on elphel wiki site and I've found that they have improved a lot (focus aid, faster recording speed and hd direct recording)

[Régine Weinberg]

Hi all the CCD cams beam somehow the image on three for each color.
To do it cheap and dirty split the picture on 4 CCD debayer and glue the quarters together, could be cheaper as one huge cmos, ccd or whatever.
Maybe a 4 k cam

[Odd Nydren]

Hi all Elphel users...

..anyone found a good way to battery power the Elphel 353 yet?

I'm found this the other day:
http://www.tessco.com/products/displ...95&eventPage=1

Battery powered POE port...sturdy built and not totally overpriced.

Suggestions - anyone?

[Oscar Spierenburg]

This thread has been far too quiet. Let me start with some chroma key footage (outdoors green screen) shot with the Elphel. I had to use the 333 model because the 353 I got doesn't seem to respond to the new software yet. And besides, I've taken it apart to attach a board with the separate hard disc, and didn't have the time to finish that.

This is just a test, the first shot isn't really focussed right. One of the disadvantages of an LCD screen in bright sunlight.
http://community.elphel.com/videos/chromakey.avi

I the mean time, Andrey (from Elphel) is working on some important improvements. He mentioned increasing about 3-5 times of the CMOS sensor dynamic range. Another guy at Elphel is working on audio recording.

[Matteo Pozzi]

cool news and video oscar
if only I've the time :-(