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June 12th, 2008, 10:01 AM
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#931 |
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Major Player
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium)
Posts: 735
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I've updated the chroma key sample with the 333. It's just a test, but I noticed a light line around the keyed figure, so I got rid of that and uploaded a less compressed file:
http://community.elphel.com/videos/chromakey.avi I'm wondering if there are still people out there/here with programmer skills who would be interested in this project. People where working on the hard disk recording (I have the HDD right here) but that stagnated somewhat. Recording directly to disk (on top of the camera) would be a great starting point to make the camera independent from a PC. Please email me if you're interested in the Elphel cinema project. |
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June 12th, 2008, 10:50 AM
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#932 |
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Major Player
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sevilla (Spain)
Posts: 439
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I've got another question...
What happened with the 353? It had (IMHO) the highest quality 2K capable low cost sensor available today (MT9P031 from Micron/Aptina). I know Altasens is better, but 25 euro is REALLY low cost. I'd also like to know if there're projects to change the compression quality to something that's really usable for serious filmmaking. I don't really care for the pc, because the Elphel needs relatively low processing power, so a 3.5" core duo board should do fine, but at least 2.40:1 2K and low compression would make this camera a real option to shoot digital cinema. |
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June 12th, 2008, 01:58 PM
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#933 |
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Major Player
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium)
Posts: 735
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Jose, actually, the hard-disk recording project was meant to lower the burden on the PC/laptop so it could use more of it's power for compression quality.
Daniel took up the project to help develop the interface of the software but unfortunately, for us, he's now working on the sumix camera. The software was never finished and I'm not a programmer, so I can't tell if it would work out. The aim would be to record at 90% compression quality at least. |
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June 12th, 2008, 04:57 PM
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#934 |
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Major Player
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sevilla (Spain)
Posts: 439
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You're right about the HDD recording. One more question: Is Ogg Theora a good codec for our purposes or we should start looking for other possible FPGA codec implementations?
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June 13th, 2008, 02:39 PM
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#935 |
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Major Player
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina
Posts: 444
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As I said long time ago: Elphel Camera, as Sumix, is not usefull for this kind of product in its actual configuration.May be it is good for some other things, but not for a HD shooting camera.
If you were going to use a Core 2 Duo what would be the point of doing processing inside the camera?. One of the Big Problems (fos us) of Elphel Cameras is their lack of a gigabit ethernet connection. 100 Mbit connection is too limited. |
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June 16th, 2008, 04:49 AM
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#936 | |
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Regular Crew
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 88
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Quote:
I'm not sure I agree with you...I for one wouldnt want to carry around a laptop anyways. Dont get me wrong gigabit would be cool...but its not on the top of my wishlist. currently there is the option to record directly to disk with a elphel camera zif harddisk. Andrey is currently working on a version that uses sata drives...and that version is also available with 12v, compactflash and USB. ..add to this the possibility to use a USB wifi dongle - I know there has been successful tests doing this but not sure what state it is in at the moment. I'll find out in a couple of weeks when I receive the new version. I hope to have a simple setup with the elphel + c mount lens + sata drive + 12v battery + usb wifi...and then control the camera from my wifi enabled phone via the phone browser and a piece of homegrown scripting. (elphel is open source so I can place this html/script on the camera and just point my phone to it) ..so - no laptop. This might sound cumbersome and weird to many as there will not be a real-time display just control functions...but hey - anyone who wants a full blown camera should buy the Scarlet camera released next year...3K usd...me I prefer this one as I enjoy the limitations/possibilities of this homegrown solution. Would be cool to hear what you think! :) //O. |
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June 16th, 2008, 05:18 AM
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#937 |
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Major Player
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium)
Posts: 735
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Odd, have you read this wiki page: http://wiki.elphel.com/index.php?title=Camogm about the software to control the HDD recording?
They are working on a new version (see Camogm2) that also records audio files. The main thing for us now is to have a front-end/interface for this software. Daniel was working on it before. I have no programing skills myself unfortunately. I'll put together my 353 and the HDD this week, so I can start testing again. I've also never really tested the optical viewfinder I've made. |
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June 16th, 2008, 08:42 AM
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#938 |
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Regular Crew
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 88
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Hi Oscar,
Yeah I've been following that page for quite some time - exciting stuff!! I do programming in flash/html/scripting and I intend to do a customized web interface for capturing...once I have the 12v version of the 353 with the new 10369 board and possibly even get wifi to work I'll be making a small screen interface to control the camera. I'll probably also do a laptop sized interface. I'll let you know when that happens!! (and of course release anything I do open source ;) |
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June 17th, 2008, 02:29 PM
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#939 |
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Major Player
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina
Posts: 444
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The problem I see is it seems we have different points of view.
I was one of the firsts to shoot HDCAM Cinealta in South America back in 2000/2001, so my experience comes mostly from a professional perspective. The setup you are describing loks to me like a, you said it, cumbersome consumer "camcorder". I don't think SI-2K is the same like carrying a laptop, despite it has a Core 2 Duo inside. The problem, for me, with having just 100 Mbit interface, is that you really need to compress things a lot to get way down the less than 10 Mbytes limit.That is too much because of two things: More compression means (usually lower quality) and more compression means higher processing requirementes to compres/decompress and higher power requeriments (watts). Anyway, Scarlet is exactly the best option as a replacement to exactly the setup you were describing. I'm looking for something completly different. PD: BTW, I have some aplications where I can use an Elphel Camera and I even asked Andrey about some things, the point is it is not suitable for shooting stuff, besides some "hobby" workflow. |
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June 17th, 2008, 03:55 PM
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#940 | |||||
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Regular Crew
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 88
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Quote:
Quote:
Its a "HD capable open source camera" that is adaptable to all sorts of use...something quite different from a closed consumer grade camera. (read: scripting the camera, custom gui, custom framesize and frame speed and so on) Quote:
By recording to an in-camera drive the only limiting speed is the processing speed of the camera, bus speed and harddrive - no slow external linkage. That means very high datarates. Second, you don't need a laptop. Quote:
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..so yes I really do agree this is not your standard "pick up and shoot" cam!! :) There are a lot of different needs/uses out there and I feel Elphel has a bright future. |
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June 17th, 2008, 04:22 PM
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#941 |
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Major Player
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium)
Posts: 735
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One thing Juan forgets... Elphel is a continuously developing project. We have seen a big development from the first version to the one we have now. The captain of this is a very intuitively working man, Andrey Filippov, who's always looking at the newest (possible) solutions.
This means that when you don't see this thing as a growing project, you will only see its shortcomings as it is at the moment. You'll definitely don't see the last version of the Elphel camera right now. |
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June 17th, 2008, 05:13 PM
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#942 |
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Major Player
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina
Posts: 444
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Ok, I see I touched some strong feeling about the Elphel camera.
Anyway, here I go again: I understand there are many more needs outside from the classic point and shoot, which is not what I use to do anyway. I'm also a post guy, and post/FX is INDEED the niche I see for Elphel. Time lapse, I would rather use a Canon camera. Some strange shots, maybe inside a pipe? I could use the 353, but probably without a harddrive if the pipe is small. I never attacked Andrey, he has his own way of doing things, and btw is the only guy I know who has made a full camera and make it Open Source. Nobody is perfect, nor Steve Jobs, nor me, not Andrey.Not even any of you. So, I think It would be a nice thing to accept that we all can be wrong.We will never know it. It took a couple of years for SI to understand what they needed to know to get what they wanted and what needed to be done even if it was against their own way of thinking, after gathering a lot of information from Obin Olson's testing (if anybody here remember him), then came Jason and me.The final stuff was guided by Jason Rodriguez till the final product. Sumix doesn't seem to be able to learn from SI past experience.They started the same route SI made many years ago.They are basically repeating most of the old mistakes. Elphel is something different, I know it and accept it.It is just that I feel that the secret lyes in the details, and there are a couple of "details" that somewhat limit its openness. I mean, it is really open, and you gonna tell me that if I think it is the right thing, why I just don't get one and modify it to get what I think is better. Problem is life is only one, and I don't have time to become myself a whole team of programmer, engineer, technician, cameraman, Colorist,etc,etc,etc. If it only had a higher bandwidth interface and some "independent" module where you could play with compression you could do a lot more things with it.I guess this two things should be easier to get than the whole HDD recording,etc,etc, but as I said before, I'm probably wrong. Hope somebody understands what I'm trying to say.Sorry if I sounded rude and hurt anybody's feelings. PD; Thinking about it I guess someone here should make some kind of "Hall of Fame" and put Obin's name in it, because from what I remember he was/is indeed one of the founders/original contributor of the whole thing that gave rise to SI-2K and RED camera. He was investing money and testing/trying to use crappy cameras back in 2003/4 and posting results here, at DVinfo. I really feel he deserves some credit. |
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June 17th, 2008, 06:45 PM
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#943 |
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Major Player
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium)
Posts: 735
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Juan, Obin is high regarded on this forum by a lot of people including me. All your work and comments are much appreciated too. I remember reading Obin's first discussions, regarding it as 'unreachable' for someone like me.
Your comments were not touching feelings.. I was just pointing to the fact that this is a developing thing. You can't tell how things will be in a year or two. And I think it's too easy (for me anyway) to sit and wait till other people do it for you. It's needed for such a project to steer it in the right direction. People are now working on audio recording through usb sound cards connected to the usb board on the Elphel. Months ago I was recording and syching minidisc recordings to the footage. Of course I knew this wasn't the way to go, but it was needed to get this thing going. Last edited by Oscar Spierenburg; June 17th, 2008 at 07:16 PM. |
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June 18th, 2008, 05:16 AM
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#944 | ||||
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Regular Crew
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 88
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Quote:
There are now solutions however that put serious cracks in that monopoly... www.RED.com is one huge reason :) With regards to elphel, anything extendable that can output imagery with no or little compression and quality enough to use for pro work - is a pro tool...I think. Quote:
To focus on one thing and make that good instead of spreading thin. This is why the elphel...or any homegrown project really, is for someone interested in the building process, not just the final camera...or one would probably be better off just getting some extra work and save up for a RED one or scarlet. Quote:
But I like the process of building it so it's alright to fail...I'll just try again. (good way to learn) Also I have trust in Andrey and his excellent work. Quote:
I like elphel because to me its not just using it...its also the journey to create it. |
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June 19th, 2008, 05:38 AM
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#945 |
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Regular Crew
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 88
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..that said - once we get that direct to harddrive (or CF) to work, along with a Wifi connection - it will rock in a big way!! :D
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