PDX10 -- various questions

Boyd Ostroff · April 20th, 2007, 06:16 PM

Visit this index page on Sony's Business Solutions and Systems site: http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...et_10014.shtml and scroll down to the DVCAM link....

Although the PDX-10 is no longer made, it has now become the icon for the Sony DVCAM system :-)

Reese Leysen · June 14th, 2007, 04:00 AM

When you shoot with a shutter speed of 1/25, it seems to affect image quality but it doesn't seem to cut the resolution in half. If I just set the camera on a tripod and shoot something at 1/60 and then go to 1/25 I see only an extremely subtle loss in detail. There seems to be more loss when there are more vibrant colors and when there's more motion.

What exactly happens here? Does this have something to do with the PDX10P's high-res CCD chips? Do they somehow compensate partially for the loss in resolution?

Boyd Ostroff · June 14th, 2007, 08:29 AM

I think you just get field doubling when setting the shutter at 1/25 (assuming you have a PAL camera). Theoretically it should cut vertical resolution in half, but in reality it isn't that bad. This is due to the fact that the PDX-10 (and all interlaced cameras AFAIK) don't ever provide the full vertical resolution. Imagine a horizontal liine running from left to right which is only 1 pixel wide. With an interlaced camera, that line would be captured in only one of the two interlaced fields, and when viewed on the screen it would flicker on and off every 1/50 second. To avoid problems like this, the camera does some blending of the two fields. I'm not sure how this is accomplished, but it means you aren't getting the full 576 lines to start with.

As far as colors and motion making a difference, I never noticed that myself so I'm not sure what might be happening.

Reese Leysen · June 15th, 2007, 03:54 AM

I'm not 100% sure if it's the colors and the motion that does it but what I do know is that I see little difference right away when I switch from 1/25 to 1/60 but I often see huge differences in quality at certain moments when comparing 1/25 footage to 1/60 footage. May also depend on the amount of light. 1/25 allows more low-light conditions but not without a price it seems.

Reese Leysen · June 16th, 2007, 05:18 PM

Anyway, just felt I needed to add I've now decided to definitely not shoot at 1/25, the quality trade-off is huge. I didn't realize what it was for a long time, it didn't occur to me that the shutter speed could have this effect, but for a long time I've been thinking about why I'm not getting a nice crispy clear image at times. Now I've decided to go back to 1/60 and make it look film-like in post and goddamn, I feel like I'm working with high-def material here! :)

Paula DiSante · June 18th, 2007, 09:21 PM

Hello, all.

I'm new to the dvinfo.net forum, but have been here off and on for a while, just reading and absorbing.

I've just purchased a used Sony PDX10. However, it did not come with the XLR block or a mic.

So, should I spring for the XLR block made by Sony for this cam (to the tune of $260 just for the block), or should I get something like a Beachtek XLR adapter and a non-Sony mic (maybe a Sennheiser)?

I like the idea of being able attach the XLR block to the camera itself, on the top, rather beneath it, like with the Beachtek. Is there a way to attach third party XLR adapters to the "intelligent accessory" shoe of the PDX10? And how is the quality, if I do that, when the connector is a mini jack, rather than the proprietary connector with the Sony-built XLR accessory?

Also, since I don't want to use my camera as a deck, should I purchase, say, an inexpensive one-chip camera and use that to transfer my PDX10 footage to my computer? Or is there a better method?

I'm sure I'm going to have other questions, but I think I've asked enough for the moment.

Thanks all very much!

Sincerely,

Paula DiSante

Boyd Ostroff · June 18th, 2007, 09:54 PM

Welcome Paula!

I'm sure a Beachtek would do most of what you want... I always laughed that Beachtek shows the DXA-6 on a PDX-10 in fact. If you get one, your camera will look like this:

http://www.beachtek.com/dxa6_inside.html

But I don't know if the quality is the same when going through the miniplug. I have one of the passive Beachtek boxes for my VX-2000 and I know it requires you to set the mini-plug for microphone level and I always wondered if this introduced more noise than a line level connection would.

Ideally I would want the XLR block if it were my camera. I don't think anyone else makes a box which works with the "smart shoe", and without it you would lose some of the menu controls. But whether it's worth $260 to add an accessory to a used camcorder is another issue. Perhaps you can buy and inexpensive used Beachtek and see if it meets your needs?

Paula DiSante · June 19th, 2007, 08:01 PM

Thank you very much for your welcome, Boyd. And thanks especially for the advice.

[b]>>Ideally I would want the XLR block if it were my camera. I don't think anyone else makes a box which works with the "smart shoe", and without it you would lose some of the menu controls. But whether it's worth $260 to add an accessory to a used camcorder is another issue. Perhaps you can buy and inexpensive used Beachtek and see if it meets your needs?[b/]

I have a bit to consider, it seems. Part of me says "go with the manufacturer's accessory made specifically for this camera!" Another part says "pick up a decent Beachtek on eBay!" I'll have to think about this for a while.

If anyone else knows the answer to Boyd's question as to whether or not using a mini jack could possibly introduce line noise, I'd love to hear about it!

This camera is not my dream camera, but it's going to take a while to save for different equipment. I bought this in the meantime so I could help teach my nephews how to make movies, since they have expressed an interest in it. Its small size will make things a lot easier, at least starting out.

Thanks all again very much.

Jon Downs · July 2nd, 2007, 10:27 AM

occasionally, the video from my pdx10 appears a bit scrambled.
everything will look great, and then little scrambled blips pop up for
a few seconds at a time...they usually appear in a line from the top
of the screen to the bottom.

i tried cleaning the heads with a sony miniDV head cleaner tape, and
it seemed to get better...but it still happens occasionally. i've
since used the head cleaner many times, and it now rarely
happens...but it still happens (maybe two or three times per 40 minute
DVCAM tape). any advice is appreciated.

Steve Roffler · July 9th, 2007, 06:48 PM

Anyone know if the pdx10 can do DV to analog passthrough?

I use Vegas 7 for editing and want to set up an external monitor. I want to do this by: computer -- firewire -- pdx10 -- s-video -- TV. But I can not figure out how to do this with the pdx10. I am starting to suspect the pdx10 does not have this function since I can not find anything about it in the manual. (I know it does analog to DV, but I want to go the other way).

Anyone know if it is possible to do DV to analog on the pdx10?

Thanks.

Boyd Ostroff · July 9th, 2007, 08:28 PM

I don't think you need to do anything special to the PDX-10 in order to get what you want. The default menu settings should allow it. If not, then I believe there's a menu called AV/DV IN. Try changing that setting and see if it helps. Or try resetting the camera and that should restore the default settings. Also confirm that your computer is set correctly by trying another camera.

Sorry, I gave my PDX-10 to a friend so I can't check it myself.

(note: I moved this thread to our PDX-10 forum from the VX-2100/PD-170 forum)

Steve Roffler · July 9th, 2007, 11:26 PM

For the record, the pdx10 does do DV to analog pass-through.

My problem was related to improper setup of some of the options in my editing program.

Thanks!

Michael Jouravlev · September 24th, 2007, 07:24 PM

Hello from a new forum user,

I am thinking about buying a used PDX10 and I have some questions.

- I've read that it is not possible to adjust exposure and shutter speed simultaneously. I hope this means that I can adjust them separately and have both adjusted to custom values AT THE SAME TIME? Meaning, that PDX10 does not provide simple Aperture Priority and Shutter Priority modes, but indeed provides full manual mode (well, within limitations of auto gain and auto ND filters) ?

- Is it possible to display datacode -- or at least shutter/aperture info -- during recording? I've read recommendations on using ND4 in daylight, but how can one use two-stop filter blindly without knowing whether the gain has turned on or not? Say, if I wanted to use the shallowest DOF possible, I would want wide iris, but I would want no gain if lightning allows, so I don't want to induce gain by putting a filter. Any way to monitor this? I am ok with stupid "exposure" control instead of normal aperture control if I can read actual aperture info back. My current Canon Elura 100 works the same way: the Exposure control actually operates on aperture/gain with shutter speed locked, and I can read current shutter/aperture settings by half-pressing Photo button.

- I've read that camera tends to stay above (numerically below) f/5.6 which works for shallow DOF. What if I want to shoot a panorama far away? I need long DOF in this case, therefore I need small iris and no ND filters. How this can be achieved?

- Does it still makes sense to buy a used PDX10 for say $1000 without XLR/mic? Yes, it has a metal body and has DVCAM, but isn't HV20 a better camera for the same $1000, new? Hasn't it time gone?

Thanks.

Jim Ohair · October 30th, 2007, 10:23 PM

Boyd Ostroff
is who you need to talk to on this forum he really knows the pdx10.
the pdx has 18 db of gain that can be turned off in custom presets.
I am also curious about its time being passed but i still don't have an hd tv so no hurry for me.

Boyd Ostroff · October 31st, 2007, 01:33 PM

Hi Michael,

Yes you have full control over both shutter speed and iris, but there's just one limitation. In full manual mode, when you change the shutter speed, the current value of the iris will change to compensate for the new shutter speed. However you can then go back into the iris mode and change its setting as often as you like while retaining the shutter speed you just chose. So in other words, be sure to choose your shutter speed FIRST, then adjust the iris afterwards. This is the exact same behavior which you will see on the VX-2000.

Yes, you can show all the settings in the viewfinder while shooting in manual mode. Again, it behaves just like the VX-2000. Simple rule to remember: if you don't see the value in the viewfinder then that parameter is under auto control. Gain can be manually controlled as well. As you open the iris, when you reach the full opening then each successive click of the wheel will add another 3 dB of gain, up to a max of 18dB.

The camera tries to keep your iris in the "sweet spot" as you noted, and it will automatically drop internal ND filters into the optical train as needed. Unfortunately this is not documented and the camera doesn't tell you when it's doing this. So forcing a wide open iris is best acheived using an external ND filter so that the camera has no choice but to open the iris all the way.

Not sure about your panorama question. You can always focus the camera anywhere you like, and that's not the same as depth of field. Depth of field relates to the full range of distance in which all objects will remain in focus. F5.6 will actually provide quite a large depth of field; in other words, objects in the foreground and background will all be in focus. I don't think you will find many situations where you want MORE depth of field on the PDX-10.

Obviously the PDX-10 is a standard definition camcorder. I think it was a great value in its day, and it was selling for around $1,300 shortly before it was discontinued IIRC. $1,000 sounds a little high to me for a camera without the XLR or microphone, maybe you should make a lower offer and see what the seller says? If you want high definition then you shouldn't even be looking at the PDX-10, so I don't see how a comparison with the HV20 is particularly relevant personally.

We actually have a separate sub-forum dedicated to the PDX-10 here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=43

I'm moving this thread there. You might want to browse back a bit through that forum, you'll find lots of good info there. I gave my PDX-10 to a friend last year, and it's having a great time in its new home in Greece :-)

April 20th, 2007, 06:16 PM	#301
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	The PDX-10 lives on Visit this index page on Sony's Business Solutions and Systems site: http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...et_10014.shtml and scroll down to the DVCAM link.... Although the PDX-10 is no longer made, it has now become the icon for the Sony DVCAM system :-)

June 14th, 2007, 04:00 AM	#302
Reese Leysen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 114	What happens when PDX10P goes 1/25? When you shoot with a shutter speed of 1/25, it seems to affect image quality but it doesn't seem to cut the resolution in half. If I just set the camera on a tripod and shoot something at 1/60 and then go to 1/25 I see only an extremely subtle loss in detail. There seems to be more loss when there are more vibrant colors and when there's more motion. What exactly happens here? Does this have something to do with the PDX10P's high-res CCD chips? Do they somehow compensate partially for the loss in resolution?

June 18th, 2007, 09:21 PM	#306
Paula DiSante Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI Posts: 31	Need PDX10 expert opinions Hello, all. I'm new to the dvinfo.net forum, but have been here off and on for a while, just reading and absorbing. I've just purchased a used Sony PDX10. However, it did not come with the XLR block or a mic. So, should I spring for the XLR block made by Sony for this cam (to the tune of $260 just for the block), or should I get something like a Beachtek XLR adapter and a non-Sony mic (maybe a Sennheiser)? I like the idea of being able attach the XLR block to the camera itself, on the top, rather beneath it, like with the Beachtek. Is there a way to attach third party XLR adapters to the "intelligent accessory" shoe of the PDX10? And how is the quality, if I do that, when the connector is a mini jack, rather than the proprietary connector with the Sony-built XLR accessory? Also, since I don't want to use my camera as a deck, should I purchase, say, an inexpensive one-chip camera and use that to transfer my PDX10 footage to my computer? Or is there a better method? I'm sure I'm going to have other questions, but I think I've asked enough for the moment. Thanks all very much! Sincerely, Paula DiSante

June 19th, 2007, 08:01 PM	#308
Paula DiSante Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI Posts: 31	Thanks for welcome Thank you very much for your welcome, Boyd. And thanks especially for the advice. [b]>>Ideally I would want the XLR block if it were my camera. I don't think anyone else makes a box which works with the "smart shoe", and without it you would lose some of the menu controls. But whether it's worth $260 to add an accessory to a used camcorder is another issue. Perhaps you can buy and inexpensive used Beachtek and see if it meets your needs?[b/] I have a bit to consider, it seems. Part of me says "go with the manufacturer's accessory made specifically for this camera!" Another part says "pick up a decent Beachtek on eBay!" I'll have to think about this for a while. If anyone else knows the answer to Boyd's question as to whether or not using a mini jack could possibly introduce line noise, I'd love to hear about it! This camera is not my dream camera, but it's going to take a while to save for different equipment. I bought this in the meantime so I could help teach my nephews how to make movies, since they have expressed an interest in it. Its small size will make things a lot easier, at least starting out. Thanks all again very much.

July 2nd, 2007, 10:27 AM	#309
Jon Downs Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Providence, RI Posts: 63	Sony PDX10 Scrambled Image Occasionally occasionally, the video from my pdx10 appears a bit scrambled. everything will look great, and then little scrambled blips pop up for a few seconds at a time...they usually appear in a line from the top of the screen to the bottom. i tried cleaning the heads with a sony miniDV head cleaner tape, and it seemed to get better...but it still happens occasionally. i've since used the head cleaner many times, and it now rarely happens...but it still happens (maybe two or three times per 40 minute DVCAM tape). any advice is appreciated.

June 14th, 2007, 08:29 AM	#303
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	I think you just get field doubling when setting the shutter at 1/25 (assuming you have a PAL camera). Theoretically it should cut vertical resolution in half, but in reality it isn't that bad. This is due to the fact that the PDX-10 (and all interlaced cameras AFAIK) don't ever provide the full vertical resolution. Imagine a horizontal liine running from left to right which is only 1 pixel wide. With an interlaced camera, that line would be captured in only one of the two interlaced fields, and when viewed on the screen it would flicker on and off every 1/50 second. To avoid problems like this, the camera does some blending of the two fields. I'm not sure how this is accomplished, but it means you aren't getting the full 576 lines to start with. As far as colors and motion making a difference, I never noticed that myself so I'm not sure what might be happening.

June 15th, 2007, 03:54 AM	#304
Reese Leysen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 114	I'm not 100% sure if it's the colors and the motion that does it but what I do know is that I see little difference right away when I switch from 1/25 to 1/60 but I often see huge differences in quality at certain moments when comparing 1/25 footage to 1/60 footage. May also depend on the amount of light. 1/25 allows more low-light conditions but not without a price it seems.

June 16th, 2007, 05:18 PM	#305
Reese Leysen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 114	Anyway, just felt I needed to add I've now decided to definitely not shoot at 1/25, the quality trade-off is huge. I didn't realize what it was for a long time, it didn't occur to me that the shutter speed could have this effect, but for a long time I've been thinking about why I'm not getting a nice crispy clear image at times. Now I've decided to go back to 1/60 and make it look film-like in post and goddamn, I feel like I'm working with high-def material here! :)

June 18th, 2007, 09:54 PM	#307
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Welcome Paula! I'm sure a Beachtek would do most of what you want... I always laughed that Beachtek shows the DXA-6 on a PDX-10 in fact. If you get one, your camera will look like this: http://www.beachtek.com/dxa6_inside.html But I don't know if the quality is the same when going through the miniplug. I have one of the passive Beachtek boxes for my VX-2000 and I know it requires you to set the mini-plug for microphone level and I always wondered if this introduced more noise than a line level connection would. Ideally I would want the XLR block if it were my camera. I don't think anyone else makes a box which works with the "smart shoe", and without it you would lose some of the menu controls. But whether it's worth $260 to add an accessory to a used camcorder is another issue. Perhaps you can buy and inexpensive used Beachtek and see if it meets your needs?

July 9th, 2007, 06:48 PM	#310
Steve Roffler Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Taipei, Taiwan Posts: 100	pdx10 DV to analog passthrough? Anyone know if the pdx10 can do DV to analog passthrough? I use Vegas 7 for editing and want to set up an external monitor. I want to do this by: computer -- firewire -- pdx10 -- s-video -- TV. But I can not figure out how to do this with the pdx10. I am starting to suspect the pdx10 does not have this function since I can not find anything about it in the manual. (I know it does analog to DV, but I want to go the other way). Anyone know if it is possible to do DV to analog on the pdx10? Thanks. __________________ Steve pdx10, EOS10D

July 9th, 2007, 08:28 PM	#311
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	I don't think you need to do anything special to the PDX-10 in order to get what you want. The default menu settings should allow it. If not, then I believe there's a menu called AV/DV IN. Try changing that setting and see if it helps. Or try resetting the camera and that should restore the default settings. Also confirm that your computer is set correctly by trying another camera. Sorry, I gave my PDX-10 to a friend so I can't check it myself. (note: I moved this thread to our PDX-10 forum from the VX-2100/PD-170 forum)

July 9th, 2007, 11:26 PM	#312
Steve Roffler Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Taipei, Taiwan Posts: 100	For the record, the pdx10 does do DV to analog pass-through. My problem was related to improper setup of some of the options in my editing program. Thanks! __________________ Steve pdx10, EOS10D

September 24th, 2007, 07:24 PM	#313
Michael Jouravlev Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: San Diego Posts: 209	Considering buying a used PDX10 Hello from a new forum user, I am thinking about buying a used PDX10 and I have some questions. - I've read that it is not possible to adjust exposure and shutter speed simultaneously. I hope this means that I can adjust them separately and have both adjusted to custom values AT THE SAME TIME? Meaning, that PDX10 does not provide simple Aperture Priority and Shutter Priority modes, but indeed provides full manual mode (well, within limitations of auto gain and auto ND filters) ? - Is it possible to display datacode -- or at least shutter/aperture info -- during recording? I've read recommendations on using ND4 in daylight, but how can one use two-stop filter blindly without knowing whether the gain has turned on or not? Say, if I wanted to use the shallowest DOF possible, I would want wide iris, but I would want no gain if lightning allows, so I don't want to induce gain by putting a filter. Any way to monitor this? I am ok with stupid "exposure" control instead of normal aperture control if I can read actual aperture info back. My current Canon Elura 100 works the same way: the Exposure control actually operates on aperture/gain with shutter speed locked, and I can read current shutter/aperture settings by half-pressing Photo button. - I've read that camera tends to stay above (numerically below) f/5.6 which works for shallow DOF. What if I want to shoot a panorama far away? I need long DOF in this case, therefore I need small iris and no ND filters. How this can be achieved? - Does it still makes sense to buy a used PDX10 for say $1000 without XLR/mic? Yes, it has a metal body and has DVCAM, but isn't HV20 a better camera for the same $1000, new? Hasn't it time gone? Thanks. Last edited by Michael Jouravlev; September 25th, 2007 at 09:35 AM.

October 30th, 2007, 10:23 PM	#314
Jim Ohair Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Laguna Niguel, California Posts: 62	Boyd Ostroff is who you need to talk to on this forum he really knows the pdx10. the pdx has 18 db of gain that can be turned off in custom presets. I am also curious about its time being passed but i still don't have an hd tv so no hurry for me.

October 31st, 2007, 01:33 PM	#315
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	Hi Michael, Yes you have full control over both shutter speed and iris, but there's just one limitation. In full manual mode, when you change the shutter speed, the current value of the iris will change to compensate for the new shutter speed. However you can then go back into the iris mode and change its setting as often as you like while retaining the shutter speed you just chose. So in other words, be sure to choose your shutter speed FIRST, then adjust the iris afterwards. This is the exact same behavior which you will see on the VX-2000. Yes, you can show all the settings in the viewfinder while shooting in manual mode. Again, it behaves just like the VX-2000. Simple rule to remember: if you don't see the value in the viewfinder then that parameter is under auto control. Gain can be manually controlled as well. As you open the iris, when you reach the full opening then each successive click of the wheel will add another 3 dB of gain, up to a max of 18dB. The camera tries to keep your iris in the "sweet spot" as you noted, and it will automatically drop internal ND filters into the optical train as needed. Unfortunately this is not documented and the camera doesn't tell you when it's doing this. So forcing a wide open iris is best acheived using an external ND filter so that the camera has no choice but to open the iris all the way. Not sure about your panorama question. You can always focus the camera anywhere you like, and that's not the same as depth of field. Depth of field relates to the full range of distance in which all objects will remain in focus. F5.6 will actually provide quite a large depth of field; in other words, objects in the foreground and background will all be in focus. I don't think you will find many situations where you want MORE depth of field on the PDX-10. Obviously the PDX-10 is a standard definition camcorder. I think it was a great value in its day, and it was selling for around $1,300 shortly before it was discontinued IIRC. $1,000 sounds a little high to me for a camera without the XLR or microphone, maybe you should make a lower offer and see what the seller says? If you want high definition then you shouldn't even be looking at the PDX-10, so I don't see how a comparison with the HV20 is particularly relevant personally. We actually have a separate sub-forum dedicated to the PDX-10 here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=43 I'm moving this thread there. You might want to browse back a bit through that forum, you'll find lots of good info there. I gave my PDX-10 to a friend last year, and it's having a great time in its new home in Greece :-)