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-   -   Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/techniques-independent-production/537015-frameforge-worth-buying-storyboarding.html)

Paul R Johnson November 11th, 2019 01:37 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Not a new story, but personally I'd run a mile from it. Have you any experience of this subject? I find it difficult to understand how you think this will work. Finding the actor and actress to do the rape scenes will be tricky. Those that can do it will not want to do it with a novice director. I'm not actually sure I could do a decent job - despite having some experience with people who have been raped. Maybe this means I would be unable to do a good job. Looking at the people who work for me regularly, quite a few would probably become busy quickly and not want to do it either. Your friends seem to be interested in making movies for fun, rather than as a career role - this one doesn't sound fun at all.

Ryan Elder November 11th, 2019 02:09 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Well it's just I wanted to make a movie that left a more lasting impression in people, cause if I do light and comedic films which the filmmakers I worked for, are use to, than I feel it will just be a forgotten low budget indie, rather than wanting to make something serious, that will stick in people's heads more after, hopefully.

Paul R Johnson November 11th, 2019 02:34 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I'd rather be known for making good light hearted movies people wanted to watch. Hard and dark subject matter limits the audience, limits the crew willing to work on it. It's really, really not the kind of movie a beginner should make because very, very hard to do.

Brian Drysdale November 11th, 2019 02:42 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It difficult to make a film that will stick people's minds. You need to be totally original and have great luck with your cast to pull that off with a first film and so far you don't seem to be showing the raw drive to make such a film.

This is Martin Scorsese entering the area of rape and its effect in his first feature.


You will get larger audiences with a lighter film, however, a good comedy isn't easy and requires a lot of work to get right.

Ryan Elder November 11th, 2019 02:46 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Well it's just more people in the indie filmmaking world are more open to making these kind of movies. There are more darker and controversial movies that are indie films out there, compared to more mainstream. So I think it's a matter of getting people to be more open to it maybe.

But every time I see a lighthearted and safe movie made by an indie filmmaker, I think to myself that perhaps the reason why people forgot about it later on, is because it's been there seen that, where as I thought I would have a better shot, if I brought something to the table that people are not use to seeing near as often. But of course I still want to make the movie as mainstream as possible, but with a darker premise than usual. I thought that would be the best way to play, take a dark premise, but try to make it as mainstream as possible for people.

Brian Drysdale November 11th, 2019 02:59 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Bear in mind that nearly every indie film doesn't have any marketing, so very few people know anything about it. To progress further it needs to stand out in the film festivals and from your pitch here, so far, it doesn't seem to have that stand out quality.

Ryan Elder November 11th, 2019 03:05 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yeah, perhaps I need to work on my pitch then.

Pete Cofrancesco November 11th, 2019 07:06 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1954748)
That's just it, I don't know, what is so much about mine. It's about a group of serial rapist/killers going around committing crimes, and one of the victims wants revenge, and investigates to find out more about the mystery villain, but this has been kind of controversy has been done before, and I didn't think I was going too over the top with it at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson (Post 1954749)
Not a new story, but personally I'd run a mile from it. Have you any experience of this subject? I find it difficult to understand how you think this will work. Finding the actor and actress to do the rape scenes will be tricky. Those that can do it will not want to do it with a novice director. I'm not actually sure I could do a decent job - despite having some experience with people who have been raped. Maybe this means I would be unable to do a good job. Looking at the people who work for me regularly, quite a few would probably become busy quickly and not want to do it either. Your friends seem to be interested in making movies for fun, rather than as a career role - this one doesn't sound fun at all.

I hate to be negative but Ryan I've never met a person with worse instincts and judgement. I keep saying to myself this has got to be someone trolling because I've never heard anything so outlandish.

Ryan Elder November 11th, 2019 07:23 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Why what's wrong? I seriously don't mean to troll, I am actually just trying to do the best I can. What's so outlandish?

Brian Drysdale November 12th, 2019 02:38 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
At the moment you seem to be making a rape revenge movie, which is a police procedural. Who is the protagonist in this film, the cops or the rape victim wanting revenge? It all seems unclear.

Ryan Elder November 12th, 2019 06:42 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
The victim is the main character, but the police investigation also plays a part, and the victim uses the investigation as part of the revenge plan. It's also there to give the protagonist and villains, more obstacles and challenges in the plot. Perhaps police procedural or rape revenge film are not the correct genre terms, and I could just say it's a thriller, or maybe it's all those combined...

Josh Bass November 12th, 2019 01:25 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
In poor Ryans defense, Law & Order SVU has been on for approximately one billion years and is entirely focused on sex crimes, and Criminal Minds has been on for about 750 million years and often does as well. So theres obviously an audience for that material. Id say its all how you handle it. Yes, 10 minute scenes showing the actual assaults will probably turn many people off, but if you focus on the cat and mouse aspect of the story, the mystery, the hunt, the chase, etc. it could be much more palatable.

Brian Drysdale November 12th, 2019 02:46 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
There's a number of ways to handle the subject matter, it doesn't be pure exploitation in nature, although many low budget indie films tend to go that direction for the sales.

Ryan Elder November 12th, 2019 06:27 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yep I definitely don't want it to be exploitative and pictured it something more like Law and Order, accept characters break the law in it to get justice more.

However, the filmmakers I worked with before really, don't want to be part of it, and keep saying I should find some other script to direct. However, I was also told that I would probably do a better job as a director, if I chose the script I like the most, because then you are more passionate about the story and your heart's into it more. So should I choose this one and see who else is up for wanting to make it as well, in the sense that I am more passionate about it, compared to other scripts I have access to?

Pete Cofrancesco November 12th, 2019 09:33 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass (Post 1954781)
In poor Ryan’s defense, Law & Order SVU has been on for approximately one billion years and is entirely focused on sex crimes, and Criminal Minds has been on for about 750 million years and often does as well. So there’s obviously an audience for that material. I’d say it’s all how you handle it. Yes, 10 minute scenes showing the actual assaults will probably turn many people off, but if you focus on the cat and mouse aspect of the story, the mystery, the hunt, the chase, etc. it could be much more palatable.

He actually had a thread taken down by the moderator months back on this subject. And of course he wanted to film the rape scene in graphic detail. Ryan is always trying to run before learning to walk. And yes the whole judgement thing...

Josh Bass November 12th, 2019 09:37 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
My bad. Somehow I missed that one. And Ive been following The Chronicles of Elder for at LEAST six months. I thought Id seen every episode.

Pete Cofrancesco November 12th, 2019 10:07 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass (Post 1954792)
My bad. Somehow I missed that one. And Ive been following The Chronicles of Elder for at LEAST six months. I thought Id seen every episode.

Thread wasnt up very long, I just happened to catch it before it was deleted.

Normally for a film festival you should be trying to show ones creativity. In Ryan case I think his goal should be scaled back to just a movie that proves he can execute something that works plain and simple. He doesnt need to reinvent the wheel just something that is competent.

Ryan Elder November 12th, 2019 10:45 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh was my thread before taken down? I didn't notice it was taken down before. Sorry if I was out of line before, or now. I apologize and mean no disrespect.

And no I am not trying to re-invent the wheel, am I?

Paul R Johnson November 13th, 2019 01:07 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
No, but it's a foolish project for an inexperienced director, because of the subject matter. Done well, these movies work, maybe, but done badly you get every pressure group chasing you, and negative comments that do an aspiring new director no good whatsoever. A genre hard to do well, and easy to do very, very badly.

It seems that it's many steps too far, too early.

Brian Drysdale November 13th, 2019 02:23 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It's a subject that requires great acting from the cast for it to work, At the moment, the film seems to have a car shoot out and various other scenes that will eat up your budget, plus a short schedule. It's all pretty demanding stuff and from experience, unless you've got a production team back in the office, it's very hard to go beyond a week of filming without taking a break in the shoot to organize the next week's filming.

Ryan Elder November 13th, 2019 07:05 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yeah the car shoot out is tough to write around though, cause I am setting it in a setting where the police have guns, so the villains will have to bring equal firepower, if they are to get away temporarily until the end.

I could take breaks for sure, if that's better. The shoots I've worked on before shot all their days in a row, more often, but is there a reason for that as oppose to taking breaks?

Brian Drysdale November 13th, 2019 07:49 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It really depends how complex your film is and how many people you've got in the production office arranging stuff and fire fighting the issues that come up. It's generally not a good idea to shoot for more than 6 days in a row, because the crew needs rest and to do domestic stuff.

On a low budget film it also depends on people's availability, if they've got other jobs they may only be available at the weekends.

This was done that way:


Pete Cofrancesco November 13th, 2019 10:41 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1954794)
Oh was my thread before taken down? I didn't notice it was taken down before. Sorry if I was out of line before, or now. I apologize and mean no disrespect.

And no I am not trying to re-invent the wheel, am I?

You don't need to apologize to me, this is another example of a lack of understanding, judgement, whatever word you want to use.

A key problem is you don't film what you know and you don't comprehend the proper scope and purpose of your movie. You are not filming a major motion picture and yet that's your primary source of your ideas. In this example seems like you are trying to recreate your version of the movie Seven. You should be writing an original script, that takes into account your limited budget, and it should be based on things you know.

Take for example the movie Clerks. It is limited in scope and scale and is based on a subject, setting, topic, and situation Kevin Smith knows. His film has inspired many small independent film makers.

And before you can jump to the wrong conclusion. I'm not suggesting you remake Clerks or do a comedy. I'm suggestion you read about the making of that film to understand a good approach for a young film maker such as yourself.

Josh Bass November 13th, 2019 10:55 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
But not the part where he maxed out like ten credit cards he didnt plan on paying off.

Pete Cofrancesco November 13th, 2019 11:20 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass (Post 1954807)
But not the part where he maxed out like ten credit cards he didnt plan on paying off.

LOL. Yeah even that should be an eye opener to Ryan the cost to make a proper film that is so small and limited in scope and scale with no special effects, car chases, or gun fights.

All of this should be common sense.

Josh Bass November 13th, 2019 12:40 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
To be fair things were a little different in 1994 (I think that was Clerks’s release year). That guy had to shoot on frikkin film and even if he could edit digitally it wouldnt have been on a $300 piece of software back then.

Ryan Elder November 13th, 2019 05:14 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay thanks! As for shooting an original script, I thought the script was original, or at least I wasn't trying to rip any movies off.

When I said the Seven look, I was just inspired by the look, not the script so much. Should I come up with my own original look though for a DP or should I show them other movie references to get an idea?

Brian Drysdale November 14th, 2019 02:11 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
You can use whatever visual references you like, paintings and photographs are good as well. One DP has a file full of visual images and they ask the director which ones describe their film. The images they select can cover a range, but it's a starting point for discussions.

Ryan Elder November 14th, 2019 03:44 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Okay thanks. Do you think it's bad of me to not film what I know, as mentioned before?

Paul R Johnson November 14th, 2019 03:56 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Sorry Ryan - I don't know what you mean?

Josh Bass November 14th, 2019 04:17 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
He means should he stick with subject matter he knows

Ryan Elder November 14th, 2019 06:16 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yeah that's what I meant to ask. It's just that the subject matters that I know I think are probably quite boring for movie entertainment so I thought I would direct a story with subject matter that goes beyond that.

Josh Bass November 14th, 2019 07:29 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
If youve had a difficult or traumatic experience in your own life that would be something familiar and personal to you

Ryan Elder November 14th, 2019 07:35 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yeah I've had a couple of those, but I'm not really comfortable writing about that, compared to a story, that is not based of any personal experiences.

Pete Cofrancesco November 14th, 2019 09:40 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It doesn't have to be traumatic. I've watched many interesting documentary shorts on PBS Independent Lens.

So for you clearly your life revolves around film making and trying to break into the industry. One approach is to do a video diary of your journey over a year period trying to make an independent film. It could include interviews of your friends and family about their feelings. Clearly this would also resonate with film festival judges who most likely understand the trials and tribulations. It would also give outsiders a glimpse of that world. Yes it would be hard and you'd have to be brave enough to reveal the good and bad times of your life. This has potential to be powerful, unique and engaging.

Another variation is to create a fictional story based on people you've met in and around indie film making. The underlying theme of both is the struggle of making it in film. There are probably infinite variations or perspective that could be taken.

You can make a thriller but its been done a million times before better than you could do. In my opinion film festival movies are different from mainstream movies and trying to emulate a big motion picture isn't playing to your strengths. There is a risk reward ratio. Things that are safe are not going to stand out. Reminds me of art school that students would often latch on to the first idea that popped into their head, or have very shallow one dimensional thoughts. Spend the time and truly explore and develop good ideas don't recycle popular culture garbage that is feed to you on a daily basis.

Ryan Elder November 14th, 2019 09:54 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, I didn't think of it as trying to emulate a big motion picture. What would be some movies that would be non-big would you say, then?

I guess I thought, well if I didn't get this script right and cannot generate interest in it, perhaps I should look to direct a script written by someone else then, instead of trying to write another one maybe. Plus I don't think my times trying to break into the industry have a enough material in for a compelling beginning, middle and end. I think you may be seeing my life a lot more interesting than it is, unless I'm missing something :).

Josh Bass November 15th, 2019 12:25 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I would echo what Pete said and add that taking one of those painful experiences, fictionalizing it (narrative about someone made up going through it, not you), could make for a very personal film that feels real that other people might relate to. Of course you change details, make things up, etc. in the name of artistic license and a better dramatic arc, but if the heart of it is based around something you have real experience with it could still feel very genuine.

Furthermore something that (unless its really exotic like your arm was eaten by a polar bear) would probably be be much more feasible on your tiny budget than a movie with car chases, gun fights, etc.

Ryan Elder November 15th, 2019 12:37 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Perhaps, but I don't think I am able to make a movie based on personal experience. I think those thngs that are really personal are off limits. I can think about it, but I am really leaning towards no. Plus it might not be good for my reputation, cause you know how nosey people can be if your movie becomes successful, and then you are looked at under a microscope more so. So I thought therefore, maybe I should pick a subject that has nothing to do with me... I can think about it.

But as for things like gun fights, what about the gun shot effects in this film riot video:


Do the gunshots look convincing enough with proper editing? In fact, even in Hollywood movies, they are opting for CGI gun effects in newer movies, and are not using blanks as much anymore I've noticed.

Brian Drysdale November 15th, 2019 02:00 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
If you look under the hood, all the best films or books are based on personal experience to some extent. That's where saying, "if you want to be a good writer, have a bad childhood" comes from. You change the names and create composite characters, even James Bond comes from the personal experiences of Ian Fleming.

Picking open personal emotional scars is what writers do.

Blanks can be dangerous, so you have be careful where you point the gun. so health and safety can be an issue, plus, unless it's in low light, you don't always get much of a flash, you get the smoke. If you're using guns, you should have a qualified armourer to look after them and ensure their safe use. Once guns come out people can go a bit crazy. especially if they're firing blanks.

Much of a gun shot in a film is the sound, so they don't use the real sound, it's a composite effect.

Paul R Johnson November 15th, 2019 10:44 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Brian's forgotten that from what I know, the US and Canada have a somewhat different attitude on firearms.

I'm the holder of an Explosives Licence, issued to me personally by the Police Service of Northern Ireland - a quite tough to get document that allows me to possess, store and fire small pyrotechnics. Small puffs and bangs. Any use of firearms, real, imitation and even things like starting pistols is rigidly controlled and monitored. The advice he gave to use a proper armourer in a production absolutely essential here. In the US, you can buy a gun with your supermarket shopping with real bullets - which scares the hell out of us.

My own experience with blanks was quite an eye opener. I really didn't think anything came out of them, but it does. I did not know this. They also need to work in the case of automatics, don't they - to load the next blank. Not being remotely gun savvy, in that clip I found them quite believable - no idea if they were real or toys with good CGI, but I didn't laugh - which I normally do with bad CGI.

Guns still scare me though! Having armourers, sword fight instructors and flight scenes always brings me out in a rash of paperwork - hate it!


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