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-   -   Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/techniques-independent-production/537015-frameforge-worth-buying-storyboarding.html)

Paul R Johnson September 28th, 2019 06:16 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Frustration is creeping in - we're all saying exactly the same things, but Ryan = you must stop treating telling stories like some kind of prescription. If you cut, and do a cutaway then return and people have moved, this is first week edit class stuff - if you cannot see this, and seek some kind of 'it's ok when X does Y' - its not going to work. This is why script work is so important. The editor is not making up the story/narrative, the writer does this. The editor makes the idea work. Every shot needs planning. You were going on about how the storyboard was so vital, yet have missed it seems, the entire point of doing one!!

You MUST get a grip on this. The briefing scene sounds a complete train wreck - it hardly moves the story on, apart from in new style. This is just getting really silly.

Dave Baker September 28th, 2019 07:37 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I'm just wondering. If this movie is finally made, will there be credits for the advisors here? E.g. Director of photography Paul R. Johnson, script consultant Brian Drysdale etc., etc. Just a thought.

Ryan Elder September 28th, 2019 12:04 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh ok if the briefing scene seems bad, what would be a better way to convey the information to the audience then?

Also, if it's the writers job to make sure the script is written so it doesn't need any cutting of dialogue in editing later, how is it that several movies can kind of lines and still remain continuous though?

Sorry, I don't mean to cause frustration, it's just whenever I do things my way, that I came up with myself, others say that's not the way to do it, and I should do this instead. And that leads me to think that there are other movies that to do it the same way as mine, but instead of using other movie examples, should I just best try to do it my way and explain why, my way?

Brian Drysdale September 28th, 2019 01:09 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It's for you to discover other ways to reveal the information required by the audience.

Scripts can be slightly over length, it's not unusual, the film will go through a "rewrite" during the editing, what works on paper doesn't always work in the final piece. The actors' performances can add a lot and has to be taken into consideration during the editing. You have to be open.

Rewrites are always required during the writing stage, it's your job to explore better ways of doing things. Don't copy other films, find a new way or a twist in doing things. You may have to throw out many of your original ideas, that's normal. Let the characters in your story drive what's going on, not going your way,but following on their coat tails as they struggle and the vistas will open up.

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

Ryan Elder September 28th, 2019 01:34 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay. You mentioned how the case can be talked about in other rooms such as the firing range or the coffee room, it's just I don't see how changing the room makes it better, since it's the same conversation still.

Brian Drysdale September 28th, 2019 02:02 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It allows you to bury the exposition more, it's not just a talk, plus other locations allow sub text about the character's world and his relationships with other people, The words are only 7% of the information.

Ryan Elder September 28th, 2019 02:04 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, but this is also a high profile media case, where the mayor is involved as well, so I thought the mayor could come in on the briefing or a scene like that. The mayor would not be hanging around the gun range or a coffee machine, right?

Also, what is it about another room that would bury the exposition exactly? If the conversation is the same, how is the room burying it? I thought I already have enough other scenes where it shows relationships and subtext, so I thought if I have it in this scene as well, I wouldn't be adding anything that is not already added in other scenes, that already have it.

Josh Bass September 28th, 2019 03:51 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Theyre saying you scrap briefing as currently written and make it a bantery conversation between core characters that lasts like a minute instead of 3.

Brian Drysdale September 28th, 2019 04:06 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
The inspector not wanting the mayor anywhere near the case would be more interesting. Use that to bury the exposition.

Ryan Elder September 28th, 2019 04:24 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bass (Post 1953618)
Theyre saying you scrap briefing as currently written and make it a bantery conversation between core characters that lasts like a minute instead of 3.

Oh okay, well I already have scenes like this afterwards so I thought I was covered there. I just wanted the mayor to be in on it, since this high profile media case, is also the cities problem. I suppose I could write it so they don't want the mayor near it but I the mayor is still going to arrange a meeting with them anyway, I would think. I thought it would be more entertaining to see the mayor putting pressure on the police in person, rather than them just talking about it, and telling and not showing.

Brian Drysdale September 28th, 2019 05:33 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Given that they seem to be discussing the interrogation of a prisoner, the mayor is an unlikely person to have present at such a briefing.

Having the mayor getting too involved in police work might be a way to give the information as part of an argument between the inspector and the mayor. The mayor being concerned about his personal/town's image, while the inspector has little respect for him, but has to tolerate him.

Ryan Elder September 28th, 2019 05:52 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh ok, but there is no prisoner being interrogated in this scene, they are just going over the case and evidence.

Brian Drysdale September 29th, 2019 12:59 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
From what you've said already, I assume how the prisoner is going to be interrogated is part of the briefing.

"Just going over the case and evidence" isn't dramatic, the scene has to be about more.


Ryan Elder September 29th, 2019 01:31 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, well I still have to present the evidence to the audience in some way, so they know where the plot is at, don't I?

As for how the prisoner is going to be interrogated, the prisoner has exercised his right to remain silent, so he's not talking, which they mention when going over the situation as well.

Brian Drysdale September 29th, 2019 02:27 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
There are lots of ways you can present the evidence to an audience in a film, having a talking head giving out information about the evidence to a group of people, possibly sitting around in stairs, is the least interesting or dramatic way of doing it.

Ryan Elder September 29th, 2019 02:41 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay. Well the crime is a kidnapping and the kidnappers sent in a video with their demands. I thought they would watch the video on a projector and talk about this as well, but should they watch it around a coffee machine or at a desk or something instead?

Brian Drysdale September 29th, 2019 03:24 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It's not the location, it's how you dramatically show a video and how the conflicts that result from it are revealed. If you show the video being recorded, you don't need to show all of it again, you need the differing demands of relatives, politicians, the media as relayed through the inspector's boss or in person and adding pressure onto the inspector during the scene and using the evidence to apply the pressure on him.


The first viewing of the video by the inspector and his team would make more sense, so you can get their first reactions, rather than a briefing when these have cooled down.

It's all pretty standard stuff in a film in this genre.

In the end, all this points out is that it's pointless asking people on a forum to supply.confirm a suitable shot list to cover a scene, since there are so many unknown variables that have an impact on how the scene is covered.

Ryan Elder September 29th, 2019 12:30 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, well even though some of the officers have seen the video before, other major characters in the scene have not, so it's their first time, so I thought that was important. It is also still the audience's first time seeing it through the eyes of the characters seen it for the first time.

However, perhaps I could write it so that every character in the room is seeing it for the first time, but then I don't know how to get all those characters in the same room then, since I think at least a couple of them would have seen it before inviting everyone else to watch it. Or I could shoot individual scenes of these characters all seeing it for the first time, for each of them, but then that would mean more scenes to shoot, to get their first reactions, as oppose to shooting one scene, where they are all invited to watch it the same room.

But one thing that concerns me in terms of coverage, is if I decide to cut out a line of dialogue in post, how do you that still have continuity, if a character has now moved from here to there. Sure you have coverage from other angles, but if they do it in each shot, how do you have continuity if you want to cut a line.

You see lines cut from movies in TV all the time, so how do they do it, and still have continuity, if the blocking is the same in each shot?

Brian Drysdale September 29th, 2019 01:01 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It's not the other characters who are important, if the audience has seen it in earlier scenes, don't repeat the video again, come in near the end of the video or as late as possible if you really need this briefing scene

You'll have to work out the rest for yourself, there's enough information in this thread to solve all your problems. Think horizontally, not vertically, which seems to be what you're doing. If you don't understand that and it's use in scriptwriting , check it out online.

Ryan Elder September 29th, 2019 01:07 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, I can try to work it out. And yes, this is the first time the audience sees the video.

Paul R Johnson September 30th, 2019 05:44 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
What you could do, if you can, is let us have a page of the script for this scene so we can read it and get a snap judgement on how the words flow and the scene works.

I work an awful lot in theatre land, and have suffered, rather than enjoyed an enormous amount of dreadful scripts. The Directors in theatre (or at least the good ones) are not precious about their words, and when the leading actor says "you know Tim, I don't think my character would say that - how about I say this....?" usually the director seriously listens and then says yes, change it. I'd say that mismatched dialogue in Theatre, TV and movies is the worst thing for actors to deliver. They have an assumed persona, but the words are just not right.

I wrote a musical once, and while not Cameron Macintosh/Andrew Lloyd Webber, I thought not pretty good, until a good friend said "you know that crap musical you wrote about ten years ago, what was the song where the girl had lost her job?" To be honest, I was gutted - 'the crap musical'? the thing I thought was OK? I assumed because I've done lots and experienced much, I'd know when my own was rubbish, and the fact I didn't hurt!

Ryan Elder September 30th, 2019 06:49 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay thanks. I'm actually rewriting the scene now. I can post it after, but when I post pages from my script on sites before, the format gets messed up. I can try again.

I am open to actors changing their lines. However, when I did some acting on other director's projects, they really don't like if you ask to change the lines, and I was told in acting courses, not to change them, if that's true. But I'm open to it when directing.

Brian Drysdale September 30th, 2019 08:00 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Actors being allowed to improvise or change lines depends on the actor and the director and their relationship. Some classic lines were ones that actors came up with, but not all actors are Orson Welles or Rutger Hauer.

Josh Bass September 30th, 2019 10:56 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I believe in you Paul. Your musical was probably ok. I’m an “artist” and as such I can tell you we’re all judgmental a-holes who secretly hate each other’s work.

Paul R Johnson September 30th, 2019 01:55 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I suspect I'd not have wanted to change an orson well's line, but equally, I bet most directors would have listened to Sir Laurance Olivier?

Bryan will get this, but place, location and language can mean a script written by one person can be difficult for an actor of a different background to do, and is usually because they understand the audience better.

Very few, for example can write at the correct level and style for children if they are grown up. The best children's movies are written by those clever enough to be able to do kids level - and it's reversed too - the hardest thing for a young actor to do is speak and act like an older person.

In Ryan's movie, I wonder if his Police, and other officials will be able to act in the authoritative style these professions always seem to have. This is where the script AND the actor need to be in harmony.

Ryan Elder September 30th, 2019 05:15 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, well I was thinking about what was said about possibly 5 minutes being too long for such a scene, but I thought it's probably a good idea, to not use a lot of locations when making movie. Some movies have scenes that go on for a much longer amount of time in the same location, so I thought that for a microbudget movie, perhaps telling a certain amount of the story in the same room, with all the characters together, to save on budget, would be a good thing?

Paul R Johnson October 1st, 2019 12:12 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Would it not also be a copout? Cheaper, easier and boring?

Josh Bass October 1st, 2019 12:48 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yes. I refer you again to my friend Mr. Roberts in this masterpiece:


Brian Drysdale October 1st, 2019 01:32 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1953672)
Oh okay, well I was thinking about what was said about possibly 5 minutes being too long for such a scene, but I thought it's probably a good idea, to not use a lot of locations when making movie. Some movies have scenes that go on for a much longer amount of time in the same location, so I thought that for a microbudget movie, perhaps telling a certain amount of the story in the same room, with all the characters together, to save on budget, would be a good thing?

I did that to a certain extent on a short, which was in for a short film production scheme, I was asked to make it less expositional by the Head of BBC NI Drama. So I did a rewrite, it wasn't selected on the final round, but was a near miss. It got made in the end using other funders and was screened in 37 film festivals, together with sales to a number of TV broadcasters.

Scenes can go on longer if if there's rich dramatic content, but if it's just expositional the scene will become boring. Unless the participants are arguing their corners in this briefing, make it short or do it another way. The audience won't make any allowances for your budget if they're bored.

Ryan Elder October 1st, 2019 06:57 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Okay thanks. I went over it again, and cut out some of it, to try to make it a bit tighter. What does that Eric Roberts movie have to do compared to mine?

Josh Bass October 1st, 2019 07:28 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
dangers of doing too much in one location. Im told most of that movie is people talking to each other on screens.

Pete Cofrancesco October 1st, 2019 09:06 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
There are movies like Reservoir Dogs or 12 Angry Men that come to mind but these movies depend on great performances, smartly written dialogue and interesting characters. Many tv sitcoms in the past have been shot in one location but they have a team of full time writers coming up with interesting situations and dialogue. Will that work for the genre of movie your doing without becoming boring...

Ryan Elder October 1st, 2019 05:32 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay well I am trying to get creative and double locations, so I can lesser than number of them, but at the same time, still keep the plot interesting.

For example, For example, there is a scene I have now, where I want a witness being interviewed by the police in a police station interview room. Now normally the interview is observed from the observation room. However, in order to avoid another location, what if I wrote it so that the prosecutor is watching the witness being interviewed from his computer, in his office.

But would audiences believe, that the police station interview room has a camera, that has a feed, that can go all the way to the prosecutions office, so he can watch it on his computer?

Pete Cofrancesco October 1st, 2019 06:45 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
We can appreciate the difficulty of your situation, but for the most part there isn’t a lot we can say or do. It reminds me of art school where you’d get up in front of the class to present your project. It either was a success or it wasn’t and no amount of explanation would alter that result.

“Why is your Irish Pub ad half green and pink? Well you see I ran out of green paint and when I got to the art store they were closed and all I had was pink...”

Sometimes when you’re in a tough position all you have available are varying degrees of less bad options. So in this case the consensus is that this scene should be shorter but you say it’s got to be longer because you’re limited to locations.

Ryan Elder October 1st, 2019 08:37 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, well I could move some of the scene into another room, I just didn't think that another room, made much of a difference though.

Pete Cofrancesco October 1st, 2019 10:20 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
No the point I believe others were making was the pacing is too slow and things shouldn’t be explained to the viewer, we should be thrown into the action learning as we go along. For this genre there always a time element, a race to solve the case.

Ryan Elder October 1st, 2019 10:46 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, but I felt some things should be explained verbally though. For example, when someone is arrested and they want to know their criminal history, something like that, should be explained in dialogue, rather than action, shouldn't it?

Paul R Johnson October 2nd, 2019 12:14 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
We don't know Ryan. We really don't because we don't use rules like you do, we go with our guts, so it's based on experience, and a good understanding of context. Court room dramas are good examples to consider. You can have a movie with virtually nothing except e dialogue in a room with mostly identical repeated shots and have it a real gripper. A poorer script would die, wouldn't it? If you want to explain with words in a realistic manner, and that is absolutely vital, then go for it. We're just warning you it sounds dull, very, very dull.

Brian Drysdale October 2nd, 2019 12:59 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
In films or even TV drama they won't give a full criminal record in the dialogue, they'll use short cuts like "he's got form" or "just out after 8 years for armed robbery" "a busy boy this, highlight was the Brink-Mat gold job at Heathrow". Just throwing a thick file onto a table can say all you need,

You may create the criminal record as part of your character profile as a writer, but you don't have to use every detail in the script.

Having been at a few briefings, I can tell you that they are mostly pretty dull affairs, unless the person giving them is a bit of a character who knowingly or unknowingly injects some humour into it.

As Kubrick used to say *It might be real, but is it interesting?"

Here's a real life bond hearing, how much of this is about the non verbal communication?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/miami-j...-dade-florida/

Ryan Elder October 2nd, 2019 06:39 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay thanks. One example, when it comes to how much information to convey to the audience, there is a scene in my script, where the main character cop, wants to talk a witness into testifying. The scene starts out in a pub, where she is hanging out with her friends, and he buys her a drink and wants to talk to her about the case, why he feels she should testify.

Some readers didn't like this, cause they thought, why would a cop buy her an alcoholic drink, when they are not allowed to do that, when talking to witnesses?

So I wrote it so she specifically asks why he chose to buy her a non-alcoholic one. But then after I wrote it that way, some readers asked why I bothered to mention that the drink was non-alcoholic, as it seems like unnecessary information.

So do you give the readers those details, because some of them can be real sticklers for little details on why a cop would do this in the line of duty, etc, or do you only feed the reader the details that are absolutely more necessary and vital to the plot?

I guess my gut tells me that if a good amount of readers were bothered by the drink being presumably alcohol, then I should mention that it's not, if it's a problem with some then. But that is what my gut tells me more. I guess I listen to the people who have a problem with something rather than the ones who don't.

But that is why I also have background information in the briefing of the case. When readers ask things like why didn't they search the suspect's trash, I feel that maybe I should mention it, because they are thinking the police are not doing everything then?


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