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-   -   Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/techniques-independent-production/537015-frameforge-worth-buying-storyboarding.html)

Paul R Johnson September 25th, 2019 03:13 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Ryan’s Rule #32
All movies with shots of hands are good. Beware of any storyboard without at least one shot of hand. This is a clear indication the movie is poor. Equally, adding at least one guaranteed success.

Pete Cofrancesco September 25th, 2019 06:07 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I haven’t been following this thread closely recently but in the other thread the general consensus was he should be using his own vision to make his movies instead of borrowing and combining ideas from hollywood movies.

I’m starting to be able to read between the lines. That if he studies award winning movies and replicates how they were shot his movie will be good too. This approach is both bad for the final result and for one’s development as a film maker. How can you think independently and have your own style if you’re reliant on other’s source material?

Brian Drysdale September 25th, 2019 06:55 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
To be worthwhile, any such reference to other films should fit within the context of you own film and work even if you're totally unaware of the other film, plus make these ideas your own. However, don't use other director's mistakes as a reason for repeating them - e,g. crossing the line.in error, rather than a deliberate and planned switch across the line.

A film reference in the middle of a gun fight


Switching across the line - going left field at dramatic points


Ryan Elder September 25th, 2019 07:00 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson (Post 1953543)
Ryan’s Rule #32
All movies with shots of hands are good. Beware of any storyboard without at least one shot of hand. This is a clear indication the movie is poor. Equally, adding at least one guaranteed success.

Oh okay, but there are lots of good movies without shots of hands though, that are considered classics. I mentioned High and Low before, or even the movie M (1931), which is considered a classic as well. I don't think 12 Angry Men (1957) had shots of hands either, accept for the part where they examine the knife, but you don't see shots of hands thrown in simply for coverage sake.

So I thought there were lots of movies without shots of hands that are not considered poor.

Brian Drysdale September 25th, 2019 07:07 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Shots of hands are a quick cutaways sometimes used in interviews, often used to shorten clips of the interview.. In dramas, best only used if they providing information to the audience that's key to the scene, otherwise best avoid them.

Pete Cofrancesco September 25th, 2019 07:52 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I guess it’s pointless to try to dissuade Ryan from reverse engineering his movies. Famous director did x in this film, I will do x. Really should be concentrating to mastering the basics and putting into practice the fundamentals of film making.

Brian Drysdale September 25th, 2019 08:19 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I suspect Ryan is taking Paul's rule #32 comment seriously.

Ryan Elder September 25th, 2019 10:13 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Well what about the shot list i posted before for the scene I storyboarded? Is that original enough, or is that copying too much from other movies?

Brian Drysdale September 25th, 2019 04:25 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
From what it says in the list, that wouldn't hold a 3 to 5 minute scene

Josh Bass September 25th, 2019 04:29 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Do you mean in the context of not enough variety/too boring/not holding audience interest?

Ryan Elder September 25th, 2019 05:00 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Well I'm trying to get the shoot done faster and more efficiently. Plus I feel that there really isn't much else to make a point about in the scene, I think everything point and emotion wise, is covered in those shots. Am I missing anything perhaps?

Josh Bass September 25th, 2019 05:11 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I think they're saying you're going to bore your audience with that amount of coverage for that long.

Brian Drysdale September 25th, 2019 05:11 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Unless something is unusual is happening, 3 to 5 minutes is too long for a police briefing in a film. It's pure exposition from the sounds of it, which is what you try to avoid in a film script The shot list doesn't suggest anything is happening other than a straight talk by the inspector.

Ryan Elder September 25th, 2019 05:35 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Perhaps it won't last 5 minutes, and maybe just three. It's three pages on the script, cause the inspector has to go over the case and the evidence they have so far, and what the next plan is. But it might only last 3 minutes maybe.

John Nantz September 25th, 2019 09:41 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
[edit: delayed post, wrote all this except the last paragraph after post #117]
It’s very interesting to read the posts on this subject area written by the pros in the business. Much of the DVinfo posts over time tended to be about technical things and this thread has drifted into a new area which is very interesting, for me at least. This is all about story telling and how one tells a story.

I’ve always considered that video is about story telling and every clip says something. With regard the part about what to shoot in the way of faces, hands, or anything else for that matter, it begs the question of why (whatever it is) it is being shot and included in the film/movie. What is being “said”? What is the connection to the previous clip and the following clip? If there is no “message” or reason for the linkage than why do it?

Anyway, connecting the rational for going from one clip to the next, If a movie was a book then clips would be like sentences, or perhaps a paragraph. Chapters in a book are often written with the ending paragraph or sentence that leads to the next chapter.

If one is making a shot of heads, hands, and things like that, what is the message or what is the story in that?

Case in point: In an official (not church) wedding I shot last year there was a singer that was singing to the the small (~ 40) group in attendance and the bride and groom were in the front row. It was a song about love and that love isn’t a game. At one point the bride reached over and clasped the grooms hand. Fortunately I had this on the wide 4K B-roll cam while shooting the singer. Haven’t finished the edit yet but instead of doing a cut to that I’ll probably do a fade overlay. This was very moving and that’s one place where cutting to hands would be telling, but just to shoot hands for shooting sake, I have a hard time with that.
[sorry for the delayed post]

Brian Drysdale September 26th, 2019 01:01 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
The longest briefing I can think of is in a film that in "Apocalypse Now", but there's more going on in that scene just the facts about Kurtz. also it's much longer film. They don't give everything, it's the bullet points, the rest is drip feed in sections through the film and they probably reveal as much about Willard (through his reactions) as Kurtz.

If it's 3 pages of script, be brutal and keep it to 3 minutes, ideally even shorter. You're making a genre film, so you don't want to take too long on the briefing. Come in late and get out as soon as possible, only give the information the audience requires, otherwise they'll forget the important stuff

Paying for a script report from a script reader/editor may be money well spent, although, you do need to interpret the feedback and make it your own. However, that will require work your part, since you can't ask them endless questions. This part of the process that feature films go through.

Ryan Elder September 26th, 2019 06:57 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Okay thanks, I was thinking of spending the money on that as well. The briefing scene was originally shorter, but some readers said there were unanswered questions, though, like why didn't they go over any dna here, why didn't they search the suspects trash, if they couldn't get a search warrant, etc.

I have scene movies with longer scenes that do not use a lot of shots. Kurosawa's types of shot set ups do that, but would today's audience think that is cheap, even for a microbudget thriller?

Brian Drysdale September 26th, 2019 08:18 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
If readers are asking these questions there may be something missing elsewhere in your script. You may need to check on the admissibility of evidence in Canadian law regarding searching the trash and the location of that trash. It might give you a funny line .

I assume something has happened before this briefing.

Pete Cofrancesco September 26th, 2019 08:38 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
While you should have an understanding of the process, it’s more important that the story be engaging and entertaining. I work in the legal field and I commonly see all sorts of disparities but it matters little if I like the movie/show. Do you know light sabers and traveling faster than the speed of light are physical impossibilities. Does that invalidate Star Wars? In film you have artistic license to do whatever necessary to concentrate on what matters most.

Paul R Johnson September 26th, 2019 09:59 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
briefing scene is always a copout - explaining stuff in a lecture style is so dull. The only briefing police scenes that worked were Hill street blues in the 70s. Short, precise and very well designed.

Brian Drysdale September 26th, 2019 10:22 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
A good briefing scene is always about more than the information about the case, if that's all that going on you should throw it away and think again. The other stiff can be more important in story terms and the characters can take the whole briefing off course because of the personalities involved and their flaws.

The main character in the French TV series "Spiral" is a female cop in Paris in charge of a small team of detectives: "she is known for her energy and tenacity but also for her tough and sometimes borderline methods. Devoted to her work, she is very attached to her men and would do anything to protect them when they make a mistake. Her private life is a mess and she seems unable to build a lasting relationship."

How would that affect your briefing and what happens in it?

Ryan Elder September 26th, 2019 12:18 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale (Post 1953565)
If readers are asking these questions there may be something missing elsewhere in your script. You may need to check on the admissibility of evidence in Canadian law regarding searching the trash and the location of that trash. It might give you a funny line .

I assume something has happened before this briefing.

Oh well this is the second sequence. The first sequence is a crime that happens, the this second one, the inspector is presenting what evidence they have so far, to the others.

Brian Drysdale September 26th, 2019 12:57 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I suspect you'll lose the audience, those cops have to visit the scene, not talk about it. Show don't say.

Ryan Elder September 26th, 2019 05:03 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
But I don't think the audience will get more information, if they visit the scene. I figure they would have less, because if I skip ahead till later, the cops have more to talk about now that information has been processed, compared to at the scene, where it is not so much.

Brian Drysdale September 27th, 2019 01:08 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
You're not giving a lecture, you're telling a story and by giving a briefing at this stage you're falling into the trap that scriptwriters should avoid - a scene that is nothing else but exposition. Have the cops struggle for this information, actively engage the audience and they won't be asking about the DNA and the trash.

In "Heat" they don't have a briefing about the robbery, Lieutenant Vincent Hanna arrives on the scene and has to make sense of it. The audience quickly sees if he's good or another Inspector Clouseau by his actions.

The nearest I can think of for a straight briefing of this length is in 2001, at which point in the movie the first time audience was probably wondering at this stage, what is this film about? It has a certain corporate formally, which would fit with the public's image of these people when the film was made. However, it's not a thriller.


Ryan Elder September 27th, 2019 06:34 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay. Well I feel that with Heat though, the way it is written that way, is because everything was able to be figured out on the scene that they wanted.

Where as with mine, they have to wait for forensic evidence to get back to them, and they cannot have forensics figure out everything on the scene, DNA wise, so they need to wait for the report, before revealing the information to the audience, don't they?

Brian Drysdale September 27th, 2019 07:01 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
They don't figure out everything at the scene in "Heat", they're just reading the scene, but there's still a long way to go finding suspects in the film and to prove the case.

You still need to find possible suspects for the DNA to be useful. Or the perpetrators were so good they didn't leave any DNA, .e.g. the escape vehicles were burnt together with the clothing, alternately they're not in the records. .

Ryan Elder September 27th, 2019 07:09 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yep in mine they don't leave DNA, but I thought that if I show a previous scene where the cops check out the place, and then show the briefing later, that I would just be going over the same information twice, only the second time with the answers, so I thought it would be best to kill two birds with one stone and just show the second scene. Plus if I were to show the scene of them at the crime, and then have the answers later at the briefing once the reports come in, wouldn't that feel like over explaining it, to have one scene follow the other like that?

I also wanted the script to be as short as it is now, and not add any scenes if possible, which means extra shooting of course. Perhaps I could have the police at the scene looking around, just not sure how to write it without it coming off as expository, if we get the same answers later.

Brian Drysdale September 27th, 2019 07:39 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Why do you need a briefing scene?

If it's just to say there's no DNA, that can be said anywhere.

Information can be given walking down the corridor in the police station, pouring coffee in the detective's office, at the shooting range, while in the middle of conversations about other things, buying fast food. The detectives may be working on other cases, so the info comes while on the other cases, plus it puts pressure on your characters. The inspector's boss wanting results, so a quick verbal report is given while trying to get him off the inspector's back.

Ryan Elder September 27th, 2019 04:22 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh they have more to go over besides lack of DNA. Who this suspect is, who this victim of the crime was, etc.

I just thought that a briefing scene would add a sense of urgency to it for the audience. Movies like The Departed (2006), The Hunt For Red October (1990), or The Battle of Algiers (1966) or even High and Low (1963), for example, all have briefing scenes, cause when they discuss it in that kind of environment, it adds a larger sense of urgency compared to by the coffee machine, or at the shooting range, or something like that. Isn't that why other movies have it in briefings to show that the police mean business on this case?

Josh Bass September 27th, 2019 04:25 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
As opposed to those murders the police just blow off?

Hopefully they mean business on every case and we dont need to be sold on that...

Ryan Elder September 27th, 2019 04:45 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, why do other movies have briefing scenes then, if that's not the best scene to set the information in?

Brian Drysdale September 27th, 2019 05:05 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
How do they know who the suspect is?

Why is the SWAT squat there?

You can have briefing scenes, but it doesn't have to be standing in a briefing room and just talking with no dramatic content.

There's more going on in Red October than just exposition, there's a debate with the generals and the information is being fired at them. It's not a straight talk, he's arguing his case


This poses moral questions about what a democratic country should do in a terrorist campaign. It's not straight exposition, it pushes the viewer to consider what is right or wrong.


Ryan Elder September 27th, 2019 05:16 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh well a suspect was caught fleeing from near the scene and fit a similar description. A cop arrested him who spot him. So they have a suspect in custody, who is not talking, but want more on the others, who got away.

What about a briefing scene, where they are talking about a case, and about the evidence, such as the one in The Departed:


Brian Drysdale September 27th, 2019 05:29 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
There's stuff going on the background with this scene, so it's not straight forward and it doesn't waste time, it only lasts a couple of minutes, not 3 to 5 minutes.

You can't use straight exposition, it has to have buried a dramatic tension. In the case the cop giving the briefing is pure bad cop in how he presents himself to the world.

Ryan Elder September 27th, 2019 05:39 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, well in my briefing, one of the cops is in on the crime, an inside man I guess you could say, and he is in the briefing listening to what they have so far. The audience would know this from the first sequence with him in at the crime as well. So I thought I had more going on than just exposition. But even though the inspector is talking about the case, doesn't the audience still want to hear what the police have so far, so they know where they are at? It might not take five minutes though, maybe just three, if that's better.

Paul R Johnson September 27th, 2019 10:48 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
In that case you have multiple contexts, so this creates the drama - the person doing the brief says something, your cutaways show how many understand it, however, the critical ones will be the responses of the inside man - his eye movements, his licking the lips, his give-away mannerisms, which will make this scene require a total rethink on how you shoot it. You've changed the entire meaning of the scene. It won't be a long lasting shot edit, but reactions to statements, so probably a much pacier edit.

Brian Drysdale September 28th, 2019 12:37 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
"The Departed" has a similar situation, but the audience knows this, so is aware of the fishing by the gang's cop in the inside for a possible undercover cop, it adds to the danger that the latter is in.

In your case, you'll have to work out how much the audience knows at this stage and if the briefing scene is a set up for the inside man being there or if it's part of the ongoing tension about how the case is going to be damaged by this cop..If it's going to be revealed later in the film you'll to play it either way, so that they do something that in hindsight is a set up.

You need to work out what the briefing scene is really dramatically about, a eureka moment? Is torture acceptable? The insider fishing for information?

Ryan Elder September 28th, 2019 01:44 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Actually after watching the scenes you posted when I got home, I was referring to a different scene in The Battle of Algiers. The briefing scene, where they talk about how the rebels could have smuggled a bomb past the checkpoint.

But for mine, the audience is fully aware that the cop is complicit in the crime since they saw him there before. And now seeing him here as a cop confirms that he is a cop now as well.

But as far coverage goes sometimes I will want to cut out a line of dialogue in past projects once I get to editing, but I can't cut out a line without there being a continuity flaw.

Like a person might be standing here, but then all of a sudden they have moved a few feet, or even sitting now, if you try to cut out a line or two.

I was told before to just cut to reaction shots if I want to do that of another character, cause then cut to reaction, then cut back and the line is now gone. But I was told also that this doesn't work cause if a character moves position, the audience needs to see it. Is that true?

Brian Drysdale September 28th, 2019 03:03 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It probably won't work if they've moved a few feet, unless they've already started moving before the reaction shot. It depends on how much spatial information you're giving the audience about character's positions.


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