Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Ok thanks. Yes I wanted to use the Kurosawa style in the sense that he has a lot of wide shots and holds them longer without cutting so much.

And I do deel my planning is better than the execution, which doesnt bare much of a resemblance so far.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

If using wider shot's, rather than cutting into a series of closer shots, you need to rehearse your actors the same as the theatre director does. Casting is also vital, unless you have actors in the right roles you're mostly wasting your time, more practice direction pieces than a final work.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Okay thanks. Yes, for sure, I would want to cast actors that fit their parts, and would want a casting director for that. As for lighting, I would want a DP for that, rather than learning it myself, if that's better to get a DP you can trust with that.

What about scenes that are short, and therefore, you can have actors do it all in one take hopefully? A scene like this for example:


I like that it's all in a wide, because it feels more I guess you could say natural or genuine then. But if I were to shoot a scene kind of like that, of course it's still good to get CUs of both actors, which they probably did too, I am assuming?

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

I doubt it very much, there was no need for the dialogue to be cut at all, was there? Pan, tilt, and a dolly move, nicely choreographed to not even be obvious. When there was a cut, it was quite a shock, as we'd been lulled in by the gentle movement. Very nicely executed with no need for new angles? I can't even think what other angle would have been better.

One test we used to do in college was take a still from each clip available and see if the frame stood up as a photograph on its own. Any of the frames in that one could be used as a still because they are composed properly. I'm not sure that clip could be considered as a wide, either.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

You mightn't get everything right in one take when shooting a scene in a single shot. especially when throwing hats. Although, the way to do it in one or two takes is to spend more time rehearsing, however, it's not really a pressure you're under when shooting digitally, it's more one when shooting film on a low budget.

Bear in mind that the final call on casting is with the director, not the casting director. They're good at dealing with agents and finding good new acting talent, but the director still has to do the selection.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Brian's right with the hierarchy thing here - casting hierarchy is quite variable. Casting Directors have the sources, the phone numbers, the contacts, and they are sort of hoovers with filters, sucking up everything and spewing out shortlists. They're great at determining pay ranges too - they know what people will want and take. The Directors want certain people in certain roles, and then the producers jump in and demand changes, and because they have the money, they usually get them. The art of compromise without losing face. I did one where the Executive Producer was also a Director, and had been a casting Director. The most smooth thing I did for years. Every Directorial decision could be made without reference to money, or other people. If only this happened more.

In Ryan's case, what I really don't get is the expanded production team for what appears to be simple, low budget basic productions. The constant need for giving everyone titles, but not the responsibility that comes with that role. Ideally, you could do these with a Director/cameraman and a sound recordist. One person with the idea and the vision if you like, somebody to record the sound. Maybe an assistant/technical all-rounder. If more people are available, then split the Directing by pointing a decent camera person who can do what's needed. He wouldn't be a DP, because the vision and look still come from the director. The key feature is having people with the right skills in the right role. If you look at yourself and then properly analyse what you bring too the table, maybe you need to give the Directing to somebody better at it. Maybe you can get better sound by choosing somebody else. Perhaps your camera skills are a bit weaker than the other guy on the list. What it leaves you as is the Producer. If however, that role is already taken, then you don't have a job. Nothing you can do is a primary role, leaving you as general assistant, third class, making the tea.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Oh but I thought I would be working with a small team, wouldn't I? I feel I need a DP, and a focus puller, if we decide on a more shallow DOF, and sound recordist.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Oh well they say to get more than one shot for coverage's sake, so wouldn't they have done different shots, other than the one still?

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Having more than one shot depends on the scene. With one shot scenes the actors and crew need good timing and rehearsing..


There's coverage to keep the producers and studios happy and there's the coverage that you really need to tell the story to best effect,

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Why? 1: because studio time with this type of movie is horribly expensive, and 2: they don't need it? They don't take chances. If they're about to blow a million quids worth of set up in a one-off scene, then there will be backups for backups, but here, this could be take 5 or 6, we don't know - but the director just stops when his plan worked. If there was a different angle shot, it would have been planned for - but what in this scene do you think could have been improved by a two angle intercut edit?

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

I don't know that I entirely agree with the minimum number of roles. For a "fartin' around with your buddies short"? Sure.

But Ryan is aiming, ideally, for a distributable, saleable product of feature length. I would push for a larger crew for that. Yes, of course they should all be qualified, not just randos who "like doing those jobs".

I would say you should not just have a DP to handle lighting...I've been there. It'll take a hundred years for every setup. At LEAST a DP and gaffer/experienced grip/electric person. Camera assistant is generally not versed in that stuff 'cause ACing is a totally different job and you (Ryan) will probably be too busy with a thousand other things (you SHOULD be, anyway) to help with lighting. SOME sound guys know that stuff (at least that's how it works here), would not count on it unless verified. So DP and at least one other person. Two might be better. And yes, they have to know what they're doing or they're less than useless (if DP has to explain to someone how to set up a light/flag, that might take even more time than DP just doing it him/herself).

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Oh nothing could have been improved, I think it was a perfect one shot scene. It's just it was pointed out how if you do the masters first, the actors will not give the best performances likely in those takes, and I have experienced that in my previous shorts, hence why I used the close up takes, shot after the master.

So I just meant, it's probably still a good idea to shoot other shots for coverage just in case, but still try to get the best performances in the master somehow, if that is what you want to use?

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Okay thanks, I will do that, and be sure to get more than just a couple of people in the cinematography department, if posible. Thanks for the input.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

I don't think that was a master shot Ryan - just shot 33 or whatever. Mastershot, as a description indicates to me, the big wide with lots of things happening within the frame, then the closer shots for detail and emphasis. The James Bond scene was just a medium shot with some movement wasn't it. Don;t get bogged down on jargon. Wide - Medium - Closeup - all have quite a variation between them, and there are plenty of others - was the James Bond clip mainly a wide 2 shot, for example? Semantics rule!

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

If using one shot for a scene in your film, you should know in advance that's the plan, so you don't do a "master shot" and then waste time shooting lots of "coverage".

You can then spend more time getting the best performance in the one shot scene because you won't need the time to shoot lots of coverage. Time is a precious thing when making a film, so you can't waste it

Mike Hodges has a dining scene in "Croupier" which is done in a single shot because he know that the schedule didn't allow him to shoot with lots of camera set ups.

In a single shot scene, the frame size doesn't need to remain the same, within the same shot it can vary from wide, to CU, change to medium and back to MCU and finish on a BCU and all the other combinations

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

This is the 'art' part in my view. Camera movement done in a way you don't notice. The daft thing is that these are the ones were Ryans gimbal fascination would work for him. Very slow moves are what these things are really good at, not taking out wobbles! That James Bond shot, for instance. You can imagine the people pushing the beast, while the cameraman gradually panned and tilted. That's what? Three people minimum to do that one shot - and we could replicate it with a hand held gimbal mount and a bit of practice?

I've got an amazingly heavy and old Vinten jib, that moves with fingertip pressure and can do some of these things - very slow swings look great!

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Oh okay thanks.

I just thought that if I planned to use a wide shot or two shot for a whole scene, that maybe I should still get coverage just in case... Cause what if the gimbal shaked a little in part of the shot for example or what if a character went slightly out of focus. I thought that even though a one shot scene is planned, maybe some coverage is good just in case?

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

You do another take if you've got camera problems,editing isn't just for covering technical issues.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Seconded. 'and once more please' is a Director's most used phrase.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Oh okay thanks. It's just a couple of times in the past, I didn't notice camera problem until on a bigger screen in post, so I thought it was best therefore, to get coverage from at least two shots, just in case every take in one of the shots was compromised, but didn't notice until later.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

As a director, having a monitor of a reasonable size on the set helps, the screens on the back of DSLRs are pretty useless other than for framing.

However, the camera crew should know if the shot went well or, if they've got doubts, they should call it out if they want another take, 1st ACs usually know when they've nailed the focus, as should the camera operator. A good viewfinder assists in this.

Given time, getting a saver or second good take was not unusual when shooting film, although sometimes, that was used to let the actors relax knowing they've now got a good take in the can .

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Second the monitor. I cant tell you the world of difference between what you can really see on a 7” vs a 17”.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Pardon moi … been checking in every once in a while and decided to comment on an earlier post (#280 by Paul R Johnson). Namely, the part about the people involved in this movie production.
An experience I had a few years ago may similar to what Ryan and company are doing. A group wanted to make a Halloween movie. This was about ten years ago when I was just getting back into video from a long hiatus (dating back to Standard 8 and Super 8 days). I did say long. Picked up a JVC HD7 HiDef cam and was rarin’ to go. Turned out they bought a Canon cam to use as the prime camera and my job would have been to shoot preparation and behind the scenes shots. And this is the important part: The location was in Kitsap County with a population today of 260,000. The city where Ryan is has a population of ~ 270,000. One difference with Kitsap County is that it is reasonably isolated from the Seattle-Tacoma Metro area so doesn’t have all the expertise that a metro area has. There is a Junior College and a local “arts college there but no Uni like Saskatoon has so that is a big difference.

My guess, and Ryan can tell me if I’m wrong, is the makeup of the group I was affiliated with was really what you guys would call “rank amateurs”. But, there were quite a few and with lots of interest. We’re talking script writers, makeup people, actors, audio guys, camera crew, etc. Really quite a few people but nobody paid. I attended a few meetings in the beginning while the discussions were about scoping out how to do it and never got a chance to shoot anything and then other more pressing things popped up in my life that required attention. “At the end of the day”, they did get a movie made and previewed, then shown on the local TV channel.

While Saskatoon has a Uni and a “hinterland population” and would [definitely] have a higher level of expertise available, it is by no means like LA with a lot of Hollywood capability. Paid actors and crew? Don’t know if that was discussed but, if so, and Ryan can comment on this, it’s probably minimal, perhaps a cut above volunteer. Maybe some of the crew will get college credit? Volunteers who want to get their foot in the door?

I apologize for coming in late on this part of the conversation but had to say it and get it out of my system.
-= John =-

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Oh, are you asking if the movie shoots I helped others on were payed or not? They were all free volunteering for me so far. I have had some payed gigs when it comes to doing post work for people, but all my on set experience, was no pay volunteering so far.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Not just that but also the caliber/quality/experience level of people you're working with

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

I'd prefer to work with gifted amateurs rather than graduates who just got through and have no real world experience anytime. In fact, even though I spent a long time out doing education, since returning to real work I've used far more unqualified but really good people. Took me a long time to realise that natural talent cannot be taught in college, but putting a sticker on already good people is often all a college course actually does.

I've got a local lady here who is now over 80 and has two new hips and knees. She doesn't do the Internet, but she's probably got one of the biggest IMDb entries if she bothered to itemise them. She plays character parts either non speaking or the Two/three word response type parts. Her skill, which gets her part after part as background characters is she looks dead right and doesn't draw focus. I bet she could do stunningly useful masterclasses in movie technique simply because she's got experience of being directed by so many famous and also rubbish directors. I watched the awful musical Les mis the other day and spotted her as three different people. Same face, perfectly placed, blending in.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Well so far, out of the directors I worked under, one of them I guess you could say is a gifted amateur, in the sense that his movies have an appeal that they are so bad they are good, at least that is what others think when they watch his movies that I talked to personally.

I'm not really wanting to make a movie that is so bad, it's good myself, but he keeps making those types, and I think he is aware of it, and is doing it intentionally for entertainment. His movies so far, have not cost more than over $500 dollars each, not counting marketing afterwards.

Another person I worked for, shot their feature for &60,000, and the production values in it are much higher. Better actors, and better much cinematography. I was told if you can't make a good no budget movie, you can't make a better movie with a bigger budget, but I think budget certainly helps though, which is why I am spending more on this one.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

"Gifted amateur, in the sense that his movies have an appeal that they are so bad they are good" don't confuse the word "amateur" with low quality. A gifted amateur can produce powerfully original work, which is more noticeable in photography, although today, with the lower costs in video production it's now more possible in film.

Most indie films are probably what in the past would be amateur productions because people are making them because of the love of it, not for financial gain. Although, many do have hopes that will get distribution (other than YouTube), but the odds are so low, that the love of it is a bigger factor in the end.

There are professional films that aren't even so bad that they're good, they're just bad. There are ungifted professional out there.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Every great professional was an amateur until they started getting paid! The word that describes the poor quality work is amateurish, which does have the negative connotation. Interesting that the people who constantly feed ryan total disinformation clearly aren't into publishing it on forums like this one where we could find out where they get their daft ideas?

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Oh okay, I misunderstood gifted amateur then. Well as far as storyboarding goes, I just feel it's safe to get everything from at least two angles, just in case one doesn't work out later it turned out. I can try to keep an eye out in the monitor, I just thought it was better safe than sorry.

But I could try to aim for a one shot and have it be good, if that is how I plan to have the scene in the edit.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

How do you storyboard for different angles, just in case. If you do one shot until you are satisfied, then why would you shoot again from another angle? Have a plan, and follow it. You cannot shoot everything twice, just in case - this is just strange stuff, Ryan. Were you told to do this by one of the 'experts'?

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Ryan, bottom line...shoot according to how you plan to edit.

If you plan to do long wide takes with lots of moving around and few cuts, shoot that way. Don't shoot coverage you only plan to use in an emergency. Only shoot coverage if you're pretty sure you're going to use it.

If you're worried about missing something on set... WATCH THE TAKE AGAIN! When you think you've got it, watch it again. Watch it three times. Hell, crowd everybody around the monitor if there's room and ask everyone to look for problems.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Just a warning about too many people around the monitor, you can get feedback about things that are important to their role, but in the greater scheme of things don't matter,

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

That's true. But someone might see a boom shadow, errant glance right into the lens, leg of a light stand sticking into frame, that sort of thing. Ryan will have to learn to filter and know what the dealbreakers are.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

I would keep it to the director and DP, then bring in other people if required to overcome an issue. On commercials the agency people usually watch it but having more people probably doesn't add anything to reviewing a take. The DP can usually spot boom shadows, glances into lenses and light stand legs, although they may have already seen them when operating the camera..

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

I remember standing around the monitor for an 'industrial' shoot I did - ultra, ultra boring. The Managing Director stood stony faced while we went through everything we'd shot during the day, and he started to shake his head at various takes, which were from different setups during the day - which he'd already given the nod to, before we struck the sets, and moved the kit. The shakes were getting worse and worse, and in the end, he was looking really worried. I took him to one side and asked what the problem was? In my head, I knew ....... the script was woolly in parts, one of the locations had a calendar on the wall which would date it, some of the locations had occasional mechanical noises from the shop floor. I didn't think anyone would have noticed these, bar me, so I'd been happy to move on and stop doing retakes caused by the talent's lack of it!

"He looks like a toad". I was dumbfounded. The person cast as the presenter wasn't my suggestion. I'm afraid that I wanted the usual standard looking female presenter who was attractive and knew how to present. Probably too 'sit' to put in print in this sensitive world nowadays, but that was why I wanted her over the others in the frame. The MD vetoed her because she knew nothing about chemical processes and people would not take her seriously. We went with a 55 year old, grey haired chemical engineer. He was short, a little overweight, had heavy jowls and read the autocue like robocop. The actress I wanted would have been better in every sense.

Looking at the monitor, he did in fact look rather like a toad now it was pointed out.

Maybe I took Ryan's approach for the problem? I had headroom, so I stretched him vertically, and then gave his pasty, palid skin colour a sunny holiday in post. The client was happy (er).

After delivery, we had a meet up to discuss potential follow ups - he asked if using the non-technical girl would have been better? I told him that in my view it would, pointing out that we got to take 14 at one point, and a trained actress would probably have needed one take, maybe two if she stumbled over a chemical name? We would have saved crew costs by probably a day, for 4 people, and reduced edit time too. As he was paying for all this, including overnight stays and food for everyone, his budget took a fairly big hit by not using the right presenter. One person caused quite a big overrun. He told me that this man was an expert at chemical engineering, and we wanted him to present. Trouble was, he wasn't an expert at reading autocue, or acting, or looking at cameras, or even remembering where to stand. Spike marks on the floor failed too, because he kept looking down at them.

I think that in any video product, the key feature that the audience relate to is not the shallow depth of field, the stability of the image, the colourist's work, maybe even the set - but the actors. It's the actors who carry their roles, or don't. The technology is almost irrelevant. This is why people can make successful movies on tiny budgets with crazily basic and cheap kit. The eye, the ear and the mind hook into the characters.

Remember Ryan's time machine movie we looked at ages ago. We picked holes in it based on the technical things, but would we have noticed these if the actors had been good? I guess the script perhaps didn't help, but decent actors can often make the words less important by understanding them, and delivering them in the best way.

This topic started looking at storyboarding. This tells the story as the person in charge intended. We then go off and make it happen. If it's not in the storyboard - it won't be on the shooting schedule. At what point do you suddenly decide to shoot extra material, and why?

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Oh I just learned this from my own experience, is that sometimes you think a shot will look good in camera, but then other people will tell you that there is something wrong with it later. Like on here for example, with the time travel one, people told me that they it didn't make sense to them when the woman left the room, because they couldn't see it. I thought if I just edited the villains reaction to it, the audience would still be able to follow that she left the room, since she walks away. I didn't think we actually needed to see her go out the exit door.

However, because people were not able to process that she actually left the room and went out the door, I still have shots of her going out the door in case I needed them, which I could put in to fix the mistake.

So my own experience it's good to get everything from different shots, just in case the audience cannot follow something later. But that's just one example, there were others where that happened as well.

Oh I would put the extra shots on the storyboards. I wouldn't decide on them while shooting.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

That was a poor editing decision by you, unless the audience can see what's happening they can't guess what's going on in your head. You can lead them to believe she's left if you cut to the reaction shot just before she walks out through the door, the audience will then assume the people watching are reacting to her leaving the room.

However, if something happens that is out of the norm, eg the person walks into a time warp in the doorway, you'll have to show that happening and then cut to the reaction. The audience can't guess that based on their experience of the world.

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

For a different approach to film making see "Monsters", There were no storyboards or script just a treatment, but Gareth Edwards had practical experience as a visual effects artist, It was shot with a Sony PMW-EX3, Nikon Nikkor Lenses (with Letus Ultimate adapter)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsters_(2010_film)

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 

Oh okay, but you see movies where a person will leave the room and they do not show them actually leave and just hold on the reaction shots of people watching them leave. So I cannot tell the difference between movies that do that, compared to mine.

As for the movie monsters, I should check it out. However, I do not want scripts and storyboards cause I think they will help. I mean I imagine it would be very difficult to pitch a movie to people to make, without a script, and just a treatment of course.