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-   -   Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/techniques-independent-production/537015-frameforge-worth-buying-storyboarding.html)

Brian Drysdale November 4th, 2019 08:15 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
If something unexpected happens that the audience don't see, they'll just assume that the normal physical world exists and the people in the reaction shot are reacting to that world. If what you're doing differs from that the audience will be confused. You can't copy and paste from other films, you're telling your story and the audience can't tell what's happening unless you've already set it up by them seeing it and establishing the rules of your world earlier in the film

Usually you don't pitch with the script, you have it for the next stage when the funders have seen the pitch documents with a very short synopsis and heard your pitch, then they'll read the script if they're interested (in some cases the final decision maker may have never read the script) In this case. Gareth Edwards knew the production company and improvising with non actors on location was part of the proposal that he pitched to them, so, in this case, the treatment makes sense. The company knew what he could do from his TV work.

Yet another method: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/13/m...leigh-way.html

Josh Bass November 4th, 2019 01:51 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
That last sentence is possibly the most important.

Ryan Elder November 4th, 2019 06:30 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale (Post 1954539)
If something unexpected happens that the audience don't see, they'll just assume that the normal physical world exists and the people in the reaction shot are reacting to that world. If what you're doing differs from that the audience will be confused. You can't copy and paste from other films, you're telling your story and the audience can't tell what's happening unless you've already set it up by them seeing it and establishing the rules of your world earlier in the film

Usually you don't pitch with the script, you have it for the next stage when the funders have seen the pitch documents with a very short synopsis and heard your pitch, then they'll read the script if they're interested (in some cases the final decision maker may have never read the script) In this case. Gareth Edwards knew the production company and improvising with non actors on location was part of the proposal that he pitched to them, so, in this case, the treatment makes sense. The company knew what he could do from his TV work.

Yet another method: https://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/13/m...leigh-way.html

Oh okay, that's an interesting article. When it comes to storyboarding and shooting for the edit, do you think instead of being inspired by shots and editing decisions in other movies, that I should try to storyboard the shots in a totally original style of my own, as well as the editing without thinking of other movies' styles? It's just if I do that, I fear that maybe it might be too different for people to accept, and don't want to break any filmmaking rules or preferences of course.

Pete Cofrancesco November 4th, 2019 10:27 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

"You can't copy and paste from other films"
I feel like this has been said by multiple people in various forms. I understand your desire to emulate professional movies but you'll end up being dependent on copying other peoples work instead of thinking for yourself . The most important skill you should be working on is to visually story tell by yourself. I can say from personal experience it doesn't come naturally. Maybe you should film scenes by yourself or a friend with a dslr and put a rough edit together to tell a short story until it becomes second nature. Watching movies and filming movies are two different experiences.

Imagine if you were an aspiring author trying to write a book and for every chapter you would try to emulate a different famous author. You'd end up with a terrible mess of a story. In the end all that matters is that it makes sense and entertains the audience. If you for whatever reason have difficulty or can't make that judgement then you're not going to be able to make progress as a film maker.

Ryan Elder November 4th, 2019 10:41 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Well I've made a few shorts so far as worked on other peoples. I don't have enough money to keep making them and wanted to make a feature with the money I have. But I also want to be able to get a lot of second opinions while making it as well though, to know I am on the right track.

Pete Cofrancesco November 4th, 2019 11:25 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It's a tough business to learn or make money at. I frankly don't know how you've been able to keep at it this long. The point being thinking for yourself is valuable and transferable skill, emulating others movies not so much.

Ryan Elder November 4th, 2019 11:41 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Okay thanks, it's just I feel if I try to come up with an original shot and editing style, that maybe it won't be accepted, if that makes sense?

Out of curiosity, is it strange that I kept at it this long?

Paul R Johnson November 5th, 2019 01:17 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
If you had your own technique and shooting style that would be good, but you don't! You are trying to emulate little bits of everyone else's and that's why you have problems. You are learning wrong. You don't have the courage to stick to your instincts. I think you could learn to be a good member of the crew in some role, but you consistently show us that your are ill suited to be at the top of the pyramid, as you demonstrate constantly every decision you make you are uncertain of, or need to consult others. You are the boss of a cooperative which is always a paperwork position, not a creative one. You will spend your money and if he process you feel is worth that money, it's ok. I doubt it will ever e a career. Sorry, but it's painting by numbers, not real art!

Brian Drysdale November 5th, 2019 02:34 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
If you wish to direct you should see the film through your own eyes, don't even think what other directors have done. You may be subconsciously influenced by them and become aware of it at a later stage, which is fine, but if you are aware at the time, do the complete opposite. Strangely, if you do the complete opposite to the cliche in films it tends to work.

You should know what the film you're making is about and by that I don't mean the plot. It's not original shots and editing that's important, it's telling the story in an original way that matters.

Ryan Elder November 5th, 2019 04:35 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay. Well I guess the reason why I am uncertain of my own decisions is because other people tell me that they are wrong, but should I own those decisions and believe they are right, regardless of what other people tell me then?

Paul R Johnson November 5th, 2019 06:31 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
When you make a decision, it may well be wrong - but it is YOUR decision, so yes, take ownership, accept responsibility and make your own mind up. Only ask other people when you have to. Can you not see these people consistently give you bad advice? Grow a set, man up, and stand tall - and if you are in charge, act like it?

Ryan Elder November 5th, 2019 06:59 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yeah I guess I am just afraid I will get carried away with my own confidence and make a movie people don't want to see, if I decide what is right, and everyone else is wrong, if that makes sense.

Paul R Johnson November 5th, 2019 07:53 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It's understandable - but that's what every movie and tv producer faces. I mentioned Thunderbirds and they gave the movie to Jonathan Frakes to Direct - and he made an appalling job of it, completely missed the huge fan base, he didn't listen to Gerry Anderson and they had no working relationship and the movie was simply awful. He bounced back.

Brian Drysdale November 5th, 2019 08:24 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1954563)
Yeah I guess I am just afraid I will get carried away with my own confidence and make a movie people don't want to see, if I decide what is right, and everyone else is wrong, if that makes sense.

You have to know why you're making the movie. There are successful films which people in the industry didn't get, but there was an audience for. There was also some very talented people working on it,


Pete Cofrancesco November 5th, 2019 11:04 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1954563)
Yeah I guess I am just afraid I will get carried away with my own confidence and make a movie people don't want to see, if I decide what is right, and everyone else is wrong, if that makes sense.

The problem you’re facing is mainly due to lack of experience and some level of aptitude. When I do a type of work I know inside and out, I have the confidence and knowledge to evaluate suggestions. When I’m out of my comfort zone I don’t know if I should listen to suggestions. If something unexpected happens or there is an issue then it’s likely I won’t respond correctly. On a professional set you could differ to someone on your team because they’re competent. On a low budget production you can expect uneducated suggestions and dealing with impossible situations with bad to worse options.

Understanding what makes sense to the viewer is second nature. One of the primary aspects of a director’s job is making judgment calls. If you’re not good at that... Again goes back to what others have said about honesty assessing what you’re good at. The general impression from most of us is either you’re not ready to be a director or you don’t have the aptitude for it.. You don’t seem to fully appreciate the difficulty and stress of being a director.

Ryan Elder November 5th, 2019 09:36 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay. Well I could make all the decisions myself, and decide on what the rules are, it's just without relying so much on advice from experienced people who have been at it a lot longer, I am afraid that I will do it wrong and fail.

However, all you experienced people had to be beginners sometime, and still make your first feature sometime?

Josh Bass November 5th, 2019 10:44 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Not necessarily. Many people on here are not filmmakers, per se. At least not directors and/or writers. Many of us work in other crew positions on others’ films or not on films at all.

Ryan Elder November 5th, 2019 11:04 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
That's true. I was also told if I want to have to break in with a movie and hopefully find a market for it, that I should maybe just produce it and leave it up to another director.

But another filmmaker told me it was a bad idea, cause if you are producing it, you don't want another director to take control of it then and possibly cause problems, and that it's best to direct it yourself, so you have the most control.

What do you think?

Pete Cofrancesco November 5th, 2019 11:07 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1954563)
Yeah I guess I am just afraid I will get carried away with my own confidence and make a movie people don't want to see, if I decide what is right, and everyone else is wrong, if that makes sense.

I do legal, live events, and all sorts of small projects. I once fancied making a movie, but I divested myself after helping a colleague film part of a movie. While I enjoyed the experience I had my fill. We started at 3pm and wrapped near midnight filming two short scenes that would run only few minutes. Reading Ryan’s further reinforced my decision. I wouldn’t want to give up a year of my free time to film a mediocre to bad movie no one will watch. I’d have more interest contributing to Youtube channel, doing tech reviews, something short and fun. While I have a lot of knowledge and experience I have no desire to pursue a career as a filmmaker.

Paul R Johnson November 6th, 2019 01:24 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I have my son's Netflix account on my TV. bored the other day I thought I'd watch a movie. None appealed to me at all, bar the ones I already watched years ago. There will be a few like me worldwide - so trying to make a movie to appeal to everyone is futile. You will have a target audience for your product - you make it for them!

Brian Drysdale November 6th, 2019 02:34 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1954580)
Oh okay. Well I could make all the decisions myself, and decide on what the rules are, it's just without relying so much on advice from experienced people who have been at it a lot longer, I am afraid that I will do it wrong and fail.

However, all you experienced people had to be beginners sometime, and still make your first feature sometime?

When directing a commercial feature film for the first time, you will have an experienced crew with you; this will be insisted upon by the funders. Usually, the first timers will have had more experience in either theatre or the film or TV industry than you currently have, they may have worked as either a director or head of department. They usually have an editor, someone who has a separate set of eyes, who can "rescue" the film, regardless of how crazy the director is.

The problem seems to be that you seem to be unsure of the basic mechanics and are obsessing on them.
Perhaps you should be more obsessed by the story, the characters and their world, these usually provide all the answers as to where you place the camera etc, not copying other films.

Paul R Johnson November 6th, 2019 05:01 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
In theatre, Directors can come from so many origins that second guessing them is often impossible - one said to me "well - what else is there that you don't know?" when I didn't turn up at a meeting I'd not been asked to and used as the excuse "I didn't know you called a meeting".

I find the most interesting times are when the Director is from an acting background, has no clue how easy or simple technical things are and say things like "At this point there's a big explosion, the wonderful sound designer will make everyone jump off their seats, the lighting will sort of go 'wow' and everyone gets blinded, and the music hits a huge crescendo while tons of glitter descends from the ceiling while the cottage collapses. The Heads of Lighting, Sound, Stage and the MD all look at each other - all having read the same script and seemingly all missed this very critical element. None want to be the one to break the news that this is going to be somewhat tricky - and then they all turn to me with an expectant look of 'you tell him'. The best solution is when the Director is also an executive producer with a large bag of gold. Seeing grown adults realising that this is the cue to realise the Directors vision, amazing things happen.

Worst is when the Director is an arse, who has no real power, certainly no money, and all these people simply say NO!

I've just seen the completed project I was involved with at one of the big UK movie studios. My entire scene, that I worked so hard on, that took me two days work - has been cut. Who knows if it was time, the edit decisions, or importance to the completed thing? I don't even get told. I got paid. That's probably all that really matters. I have no compelling need to see things to their conclusion. That need kind of left me. I was working on one when the Director got a recall to the states. There had been bad weather and shooting was cancelled. He was working on a new production when they recalled him, with a first class air ticket and he went, because the recall clause was in the contract that earned him mega bucks. The project he abandonned paid less, so he got on a plane. Needless to say, he won't get any more Directing roles from this production company - but again, it's a job and you do what you have to do. Ryan's need to make movies is a 'passion' not a job. Maybe that's what we can't quite fathom out what he's up to?

Josh Bass November 6th, 2019 05:12 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I understand him, to some degree, having been him (maybe will again).

Brian Drysdale November 6th, 2019 05:31 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Having made passion films, i.e, ones that have no commercial plans or value, their making usually comes down to bloody mindedness and being willing to take risks. When I made an 8mm feature length Bond type movie when I was 16/17 I don't recall being aware of the 180 rule, but somehow I never broke it during the filming. It still has the biggest scene in any film I've worked on - an air attack on a secret mountain base in the Swiss alps.

I was amused to see "The Right Stuff" using similar techniques to those I used with my Airfix models.

Ryan Elder November 6th, 2019 06:51 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson (Post 1954589)
In theatre, Directors can come from so many origins that second guessing them is often impossible - one said to me "well - what else is there that you don't know?" when I didn't turn up at a meeting I'd not been asked to and used as the excuse "I didn't know you called a meeting".


I find the most interesting times are when the Director is from an acting background, has no clue how easy or simple technical things are and say things like "At this point there's a big explosion, the wonderful sound designer will make everyone jump off their seats, the lighting will sort of go 'wow' and everyone gets blinded, and the music hits a huge crescendo while tons of glitter descends from the ceiling while the cottage collapses. The Heads of Lighting, Sound, Stage and the MD all look at each other - all having read the same script and seemingly all missed this very critical element. None want to be the one to break the news that this is going to be somewhat tricky - and then they all turn to me with an expectant look of 'you tell him'. The best solution is when the Director is also an executive producer with a large bag of gold. Seeing grown adults realising that this is the cue to realise the Directors vision, amazing things happen.

Worst is when the Director is an arse, who has no real power, certainly no money, and all these people simply say NO!

I've just seen the completed project I was involved with at one of the big UK movie studios. My entire scene, that I worked so hard on, that took me two days work - has been cut. Who knows if it was time, the edit decisions, or importance to the completed thing? I don't even get told. I got paid. That's probably all that really matters. I have no compelling need to see things to their conclusion. That need kind of left me. I was working on one when the Director got a recall to the states. There had been bad weather and shooting was cancelled. He was working on a new production when they recalled him, with a first class air ticket and he went, because the recall clause was in the contract that earned him mega bucks. The project he abandonned paid less, so he got on a plane. Needless to say, he won't get any more Directing roles from this production company - but again, it's a job and you do what you have to do. Ryan's need to make movies is a 'passion' not a job. Maybe that's what we can't quite fathom out what he's up to?

Oh that's interesting, why would they all look at each other, if it was difficult to pull off in that case? The explosion and glitter were not in the budget? Or is the music and sound a problem too in that case?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale (Post 1954588)
When directing a commercial feature film for the first time, you will have an experienced crew with you; this will be insisted upon by the funders. Usually, the first timers will have had more experience in either theatre or the film or TV industry than you currently have, they may have worked as either a director or head of department. They usually have an editor, someone who has a separate set of eyes, who can "rescue" the film, regardless of how crazy the director is.

The problem seems to be that you seem to be unsure of the basic mechanics and are obsessing on them.
Perhaps you should be more obsessed by the story, the characters and their world, these usually provide all the answers as to where you place the camera etc, not copying other films.

Yeah I feel I am obsessed with the story and their characters, it's just I was asking more technical questions on here, cause this site seems to be more directed at that, and most of the critiques I got, were on the technical side, more than the story side, I thought.

Paul R Johnson November 6th, 2019 07:12 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I suspect Ryan, that understanding this (or not) could be one of the reasons you have trouble with people? The look I described was understood by every single person there - who were all thinking exactly the same thing. I'm not sure I can explain this one if you don't get it?

Pete Cofrancesco November 6th, 2019 08:30 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson (Post 1954593)
I suspect Ryan, that understanding this (or not) could be one of the reasons you have trouble with people? The look I described was understood by every single person there - who were all thinking exactly the same thing. I'm not sure I can explain this one if you don't get it?

This in a nutshell is why he shouldn’t be a director. Probably for the same reason there’s nothing we could say to deter him. I guess he can keep making passion films for as long as he wants. Hopefully it will lead to something, however career wise I’m not sure what.

Brian Drysdale November 6th, 2019 11:00 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
"it's just I was asking more technical questions on here, cause this site seems to be more directed at that, and most of the critiques I got, were on the technical side"

The questions seemed to be getting more on the aesthetic side - deep focus, blocking out scenes, the meaning of green cars etc, rather than technical.

Ryan Elder November 6th, 2019 12:25 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yeah that makes sense. The aesthetic side is what I feel I should learn more about.

Well if I shouldn't be directing, what if I produced it, do editing and other post work, but gave someone else the job as director?

Paul R Johnson November 6th, 2019 01:46 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Ryan - tell us what you are good at. What elements of movie making do you really enjoy and do really well? I'm not really sure you actually understand the roles you talk about. What elements of being producer do you excel at? What contribution to the 'whole' do you see yourself doing? I thought you didn't get on with editing? Me - editing is my weakest area. I'm good with the technology, but I struggle with that 'feeling' of THERE - when you know that's where the cut will work best. I seem to get it close then have to constantly go back and forth. Good editors just hit the button.

I'm struggling with finding your strengths.

Josh Bass November 6th, 2019 01:57 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Reading this I get the feeling Ryan simply likes being associated with filmmaking in just about any capacity. If this is so, and he wants to do it for a living, this ties back to Paul's skills audit and where Ryan's strengths would dovetail with positions on a film crew/film production.

Ryan Elder November 6th, 2019 05:53 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Well I like directing the most, and editing second most. If I am not doing either of those, I also like production sound so far. I don't really like producing, I just do it if I have to, if it's my budget and all.

Paul R Johnson November 7th, 2019 01:38 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
No Ryan, that was not the answer to e question. I like dance, I'm just rubbish at it.


You don't like producing so why even think about doing it? The question is very, very simple. What are you GOOD at? Liking it is a bonus.

A very sobering process is to look at your Facebook friends. I have always played the bass guitar, and it's part of my living. People pay me to do it. Looking at my friends, three of my college students from the late 90s early 2000's now have a career playing bass. They are ALL better than me. Three of my friends are into photography professionally, all have much better photos than me. Four are video pros and again, would be before me in the usefulness list. Five are lighting people and overtook me in demand from productions, and the same with sound. It means that I have people available to me who can do their roles better than me, which is annoying for a moment, but clearly a real benefit to me. I know that if people,call me, they will have called them first. However, I'm quite good at organising, and people come to me first in what has become my primary role.

If you look at your circle of friends, which area are you the come to first, and which is your 'if nobody else can do it'? Somewhere must exist a packet of skills you have that can be used effective in movie making. You ask your friends all the time with the "I have been told " posts, so ask them what THEY think you're good at. I'm worried that they might all have been on the same dreadful film making course you went on, but they will be able to assess you better than us.

Have you understood the 'look' I mentioned earlier that confused you? I urge you to read that story again and see if you can have the lightbulb moment.

Josh Bass November 7th, 2019 01:45 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
We're getting a little philosophical (or something) here, but what if the things he's good at in the filmmaking world are not things he likes?

"WHO CARES????" you all say.

Well, thing is, being in a job role you dislike can lead to a lot of misery, depression, etc. For instance, see: 70% of people (last I heard).

Ideally one finds where their skills and, I won't say "passion", but things they at least like, collide.

If he's making a living at something else right now, he's already found that which he can merely tolerate.

If any job to do with flimmaking is better to him than not being associated with it professionally at all, different story.

Ryan Elder November 7th, 2019 06:43 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Well I guess I haven't found anything in filmmaking that I don't like. Sometimes I don't like recording sound as it can be a pain, but I've been told by others that my audio has been good compared to others and that I seem to know what I am doing.

I was also told that my acting is good, and other filmmakers wanted me to act in their projects. I get chosen mostly to act, but I would like to direct my own projects as well. Not sure if I'm good at acting and audio recording, just going by some other filmmakers.

Paul R Johnson November 7th, 2019 06:57 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Ryan - for goodness sake. We are encouraging you to step up, take charge and declare the things that make you stand out, and you defer to others again. It's like encouraging somebody with a drink problem. Stand up and say "I'm Ryan, I'm a sound recordist" - say it and mean it!

Brian Drysdale November 7th, 2019 08:06 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Being a director requires a certain level of ego, when you're doing it you have to make the final calls. so you need that self belief..

Nothing wrong with being a sound recordist/actor. I know a number of TV floor managers, make up people, riggers, who are also actors. A number of feature film directors are also actors. However, when directing you take on that role with conviction.

Pete Cofrancesco November 7th, 2019 08:40 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
It’s difficult to earn a living making feature films unless you live in LA. But a lot of skills are transferable to other commercial work. If you’re a decent camera op there are a lot of options. If you become a freelancer then it’s good to know a little bit of everything because you’re generally working solo. If you need something more stable maybe you should look into being a media person at a school.

Like everyone is saying, you need to figure out what you're good at and focus on that. You could spend you're entire life wondering what you should be, but its probably better to pick something you're good at and go for it.

Ryan Elder November 7th, 2019 12:22 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh ok well i thought i was good at sound recording and boom op work.

Josh Bass November 7th, 2019 12:57 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
You should show some of your recordings to a professional location sound mixer or post sound person, i.e. someone who regularly gets paid to do that work, to get a legitimate opinion on that.


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