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-   -   Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding? (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/techniques-independent-production/537015-frameforge-worth-buying-storyboarding.html)

John Nantz September 20th, 2019 02:15 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale (Post 1953479)
A point to remember about the early "Ballykissangel" series is that it was probably framed 14:9 on Super 16, for showing on 4 x 3 televisions. This was common on film TV dramas around that time, I worked an the first episode and I don't recall it being different.

I used to switch my Aaton film camera regularly between standard 16 and Super 16 during this period, before 16:9 became the norm. The same used to happen on Digital Betacam cameras when you switched between 4 x 3 and 16 x 9 for a couple of years.

Geeze, Brian, I'm impressed!
While watching the series on a digital TV I would have never thought some of it came from film.

Question: since this wasn't a Hollywood budget operation, as a cam operator, were you allowed some artistic license or freedom to decide what would be in the shot or how to do it? Storyboard? or how were the shot decisions made, by committee?

In at least one of the "behind the scenes" clips there were some short coverages of the cam operator with a roll-film cam so that has to be the film camera you were using. Maybe there was a shot of you in it? The cams with all the accessories was quite large and obviously heavy, not so much as the Hollywood 35mm but a significant piece of iron. Our daughter calls them "the olden days".

The thing about film is the expense, and, no instant re-run to see if the shot looked or sounded okay. Oh, and the large umbrellas for when it rained.

Brian Drysdale September 20th, 2019 04:35 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
"Ballykissangel" was all shot on film.

They used Super 16 cameras, which aren't large and heavy,they are pretty much the ideal weight for shooting hand held and are well balanced, although in studio mode, with the accessories, they get bigger. 35mm film cameras are much heaver as were some of the 2/3" video cameras of the period. An Arri Alexa is heaver.

The camera operator wouldn't touch the film rolls, the camera assistant does that on a drama.

I've never seen a storyboard on a TV drama, the director usually just carries notes and describes the shot. In a multi camera studio you'd get a shot list, I've seen storyboards on shorts and commercials and I know "Game of Thrones" uses them, but that has very high production values and lots of effects shots. There is an element of license, the idea is to make it better than the director wanted, or as one camera made said to a director "you'd better be careful, otherwise I'll give you what you asked for". Directors vary and some like to line up the shot with the film camera, but once they trust you, they often leave you to it.

Large umbrellas are used on all larger productions, as are clear plastic bags with holes to keep off the rain..

You can listen to the sound, which is recorded separately and if the film camera has video assist, you can play that back from a video recorder. But usually, you don't have time for that on a TV dramas..

Ryan Elder September 20th, 2019 05:13 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, that's interesting.

So if I use storyboards on a project, and describe what happens in the shot below the picture, is there any reason to have a separate shot list? Cause some filmmakers seem to have both, but is there a reason for it?

Brian Drysdale September 21st, 2019 12:09 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Use whatever works for you.

Assistant directors want a shot list, so they can schedule the day's filming.

Ryan Elder September 21st, 2019 01:43 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yeah that makes sense. But as far as flaws go in movies, you see it all the time, like in Straw Dogs (1971) for example, they break the 180 degree in some shots and I don't think they had a real reason for doing it. So I think you see these flaws show up once in a while and no movie is perfect. So maybe as long as I have a good script, and good actors, the occasional flaw like that is not so bad?

Paul R Johnson September 21st, 2019 02:27 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I think you need to revisit straw dogs, and then compare the stuff you shoot on a scene by scene basis. remember the time machine video? You forgot the whole thing hinged on the time machine, which we hardly glimpsed, and the angles you chose that revealed the traffic passing in the background, and the car sequence where we weren't certain who was following whom? None of these issues would have been solved by storyboard quality. I'm seeing your production style as a wander down the aisles of a supermarket, grabbing all kinds of ingredients and then hoping it would taste nice because the ingredients were all really good quality. We're talking about a shopping list scribbled in pencil, or beautifully printed with an expensive computer and promoter on wonderful paper.

You can't cite Straw Dogs as an example of where the 180 degree rule was broken successfully (and I've not re-watched it to check, why would I?) against your own flaws. They're on a very different scale. I just don't know why you don't get this? You seem immune from the differences between laws, regulations, codes of practice, recommended practice, suggestions and conventions. The shot that started all this in the cemetery was not a problem because of 30 or 40 degree rules, or changes in field angle, or zoom settings or background focus or composition - it was that the cut was inappropriate and simply doesn't work, based on television and film making conventions. It's a kind of pass/fail conclusion on what is seen. We're trying to break it down, and you are looking for rules you have broken to support why it didn't work, we're content to simply state it didn't work - do we need to break it down. The critical issue is why you didn't see it as not working, and until you can move forward to seeing the whole, and becoming critical, you won't progress, because you will never be sure something is good without seeking reassurance from others. This is your weakest area, and it impacts on everything you do - you're just never certain, and you need to really work on your self-confidence in your products.

Every duff shot I have to use because there is no alternative really gets me, and I try to not get into that position for the next one. I know it's bad, I don't need to ask.

All the regular respondents to your posts probably would disagree with each other if we got together and shared our work - we'd find picky little things we didn't like, but I suspect we would already know the problems. We won't always agree, which is great. What happens in your topics is that we give you answers you don't like, so you try to justify them by using your really good movie knowledge to support what you did. If your favourite Director gets away with it, it does not mean you can do the same.

Ryan Elder September 21st, 2019 02:33 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay, well I guess I need to see the distinction more between my short film compared to other movies sometimes. It's not that I want to justify my mistakes, but I feel that I have to quote precedent, since it's been done before, and a distinction therefore must be made. I think that if you are to point a flaw in someone's work, that you should point out the distinction if it's a precedent has already been set by past movies, unless I am wrong?

Because that way I see the distinction. Otherwise, I am always second guessing myself, thinking well I've seen this shot before, but can I do it, if no one cares about past precedent?

For example, the scene where you say you didn't know who the woman was following in the car. There have been other movies where someone will follow someone and you don't see the person being followed in close up, and just from the followers POV. Also, the guy being followed is driving a convertible car, and you can see that it's him, even if it's from her POV. Unless audiences are watching on smaller screens more and cannot see this compared to older days, maybe? But since it's been done without close up before, I feel that precedence from other movies, must be cited therefore, in order to understand it all.

Brian Drysdale September 21st, 2019 02:52 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Flaws exist in all human projects, however, there are occasions when you can get away with crossing the line and when you can motivate the line to shift within a scene using the actor's actions.

Shots that are dropped during the editing can result in a crossing of the line because other demands in the sequence were thought to be more important. Sometimes it's not noticeable on first viewing because the action carries you though it.

If it's the cut I'm thinking of in your film, it's a poor cut that draws attention to itself without good reason and didn't emotionally connect with what you were trying to convey.

A film isn't a case in law which can carried up to the supreme court where precedence can be decided, it either works within the context of the scene in the film or it doesn't, What works on one film may not work in another.

Ryan Elder September 21st, 2019 03:28 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay. Do you think I should get several more shots then, in case it turns out something doesn't work in context later? It's just that I am trying to shoot in the least amount of shots possible, to save on time with my budgets.

So how do you know how many shots you need, in case, it turns out in editing, people want a close up of someone driving for example, during a following scene, when you may not have it, etc.

Josh Bass September 21st, 2019 05:05 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
You dont. Thats why we shoot coverage.

Ryan Elder September 21st, 2019 06:32 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Okay thanks. Well so far I've been two shots of coverage for everything, if that's enough, to try to get through shoots faster. Like I will do a master shot, and then a close up of the characters, thus two shots of them each.

Josh Bass September 21st, 2019 06:50 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Based in what we’ve seen and what we’ve been telling you, I think you need all the coverage you can get. Your idea of not shooting unnecessary stuff is commendable and in a ideal situation, even something to be aimed for, but you have tried it that way and it apparently has not been working out. I think you need enough stuff to be able to edit around unforeseen problems like the ones you’ve described.

Ryan Elder September 21st, 2019 07:19 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Okay thanks. Well lately I've been trying to knock out two pages an hour if possible, but is that too unreasonable to shoot for?

There is a scene for example I am storyboarding now for example, where it's a conference room meeting with probably around 15 actors in it at least. But do I have to get a close up of everyone of them, even if they are not all major characters?

Brian Drysdale September 21st, 2019 10:53 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I wouldn't push for more than 30 camera set ups in a day on a drama unless you got two cameras. Two pages an hour sounds more like TV soap, rather than a film

You only need to cover the actors who are key to the scene, let the scene run a reasonable time on each of of them, don't just cover their lines, you need a performance and their reactions. You can shoot some of others who you see in other scenes in the film who are reacting to events. but shooting 15 is a waste of time, especially if you never see them again.

Ryan Elder September 22nd, 2019 12:40 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yeah, I mean the scene is police officers getting a briefing and then see them again during the SWAT/arrest scene later, but they are still not major characters at all.

As for how many camera set ups a day, it depends... How many takes should I do? I've been doing 4-5, usually, but I was told by one director that for me to get better acting I should be doing at least 20 takes. But that would take a lot longer, so is that too many? I assume she means 20 takes per camera set up?

Paul R Johnson September 22nd, 2019 12:58 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
These people are total idiots - stop taken advice from them! If you do 20 takes, the turns will get bored, not better! If you shoot one shot, and it's perfect when you actually review it there and then, it will almost certainly be the one that makes the edit, so one more for safety and you are done if that one works. Only fools would keep the actors hanging around this long - the technical folk get used to repeated processes, and don't even notice the actors wandering around, but actors have micro attention spans if they are extras, and only slightly more if they have a line!

In fact, from my acting management experience, even when it goes badly, more than 6 or so is too much and performance drops. In the UK, we also have very rigid rules on actors time if any are union members, so we're looking at tea breaks and food time which will eat your days up. 20 takes will have a union rep running around.

Stop looking at numbers. The problem is the complexity of the shot, and with all these extras managing them - while you review each shot. With so many people, it takes time and patience to review each wide shot watching for that one person who is not with it, spoiling the shot.

Ryan Elder September 22nd, 2019 01:07 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Okay but if I review each take, I definitely will not be able to knock out two pages an hour like I've doing lately I don't think. But shouldn't there be a max number of takes still, so the shoot doesn't go on for two long though? Even if you feel you don't have the perfect one maybe after say the 10th, it's time to move on?

For example, one short I did, the DP wasn't satisfied with the camera movement and kept wanting to do it again and again, but I just finally said we had to move on, and pick whichever take was the best from that shot. So should therer be a limit therefore?

Paul R Johnson September 22nd, 2019 01:16 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Surely you have this wrong? You shoot each one, and DON'T review it? This is very dangerous. 5, 10 or 100 shots and no guarantee of any of them being good? If the shot lasts five minutes, then 5 minutes is well worth watching, and most are much shorter. You get a gut reaction if the shot was good/bad, so you only watch the good ones. If you get a good one - what is the point of wearing everyone out and decreasing the quality by repeating to reach some magic number???
I would rather have quality than quantity. Your way means your edit decisions are made solely because of covering mistakes. If you get two great shots, then move on and save time. If the shots go bad, bad, good, good, then the next one is a bit pointless isn't it? Whatever spoils the shot becomes the focus, not the whole - so your quality becomes getting it right, not a great performance.

How does the director know the camera movement wasn't right without reviewing it?

I thought your aim was to be as professional as possible, within a limited budget? You seem to be doing the quantitative vs qualitative shuffle. All this extra shooting means extra edit time, just to watch out and log it.

Moving on is a skill - how can you produce a decision if you don't watch the footage and review it? Madness!

Ryan Elder September 22nd, 2019 01:19 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
For the last two I didn't review all of them, to save time, but I figure in the old days of filming, they could not watch over every take, and had to rely on watching the take as it played out, so I thought I would just do it old school to try to get more shooting done in a day. But I can review each one if that's better, it's just before, shoots went a lot longer and people were starting to get anxious as a result, where as not reviewing each take made shoots go by faster for people.

But I can review the footage then after each take. If I should aim for no more than 30 camera set ups a day though, how do I time it out if I don't have a set number of takes though? I don't have to have a set number of takes and call it when I feel we have gotten two good ones, if that's better. However, how do I time a shoot out though, without a set number?

Paul R Johnson September 22nd, 2019 04:19 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
You guess! But a guess, based on experience. Your variables are limited - people and camera. Camera moves need to be practiced, but then they're sorted. Your people are the unreliable elements.

Your problem is trust. If you are directing, then you need to trust the camera operator to frame and focus properly - it's their job. I assume you have a monitor? The director needs to be able to split attention to the real scene and the monitor. If you can't do this, you have an assistant who can be alert for issues. As director, you will be intent on the leads - their facial, vocal and overall perspectives - you cannot also look at the rest of the people acting. Maybe the assistant can do that?

One of my roles in the past as production manager is to keep an eye on the time, and whisper in the directors ear - "if we don't get the next one, we'll be into a break, and then we'll lose the musicians for an hour. If we try one more, but then we HAVE to break" They get it, and don't like it, but know. So I'm looking at time, at progress and budget implications. I also know when scenes are too long so we start to get lighting changes that the edit won't like.

You need to be able to look at a scene on paper and your participants, and make a pretty good guesstimate. You know that camera track will go wrong. You know that speech is so long they'll mess up multiple times, and you know the boom people are going to dip into shot because you hassled them to get clear audio so ADR would not be needed.

You cannot have a rigid timing rule, because everything in the pot works against that. Shooting multiples is a waste of everyone's time if not needed. Remember the old days when they'd shout cut, and everyone waited for the "print it" because everyone had the thumbs up? If you alone cannot decide, trust others, then move on. If you save 20 minutes you can then have this for the shot later on where it will be terrible.

Brian Drysdale September 22nd, 2019 05:02 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Elder (Post 1953507)
As for how many camera set ups a day, it depends... How many takes should I do? I've been doing 4-5, usually, but I was told by one director that for me to get better acting I should be doing at least 20 takes. But that would take a lot longer, so is that too many? I assume she means 20 takes per camera set up?


Who does 20 takes other than a few directors who have the time? The number of takes you need varies and some actors give better performances on the 1st take, while others do it take 7, there are no rules. If you've a tight schedule, 20 takes is a luxury you don't have.

To get better acting get better actors, spend time in the auditions.

In your briefing scene, if the SWAT team are just extras, don't feature them with a CU, a group shot is fine as a cutaway, I meant characters who are featured in the story for CU, not background action. They must be of some significance to be worth a CU. otherwise why are you doing the CU?

Ryan Elder September 22nd, 2019 11:20 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh well it's just I miss details that people ask questions about later, so I thought maybe I should get a CU of everyone for safety, to avoid any kind of questions or confusion. I don't think I need a CU of all of them but, I don't want to be wrong later.

As for number of takes, I can keep going till I feel the actors got it right then, just don't know how long a shoot will take a result.

John Nantz September 22nd, 2019 11:50 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
A bad shot in a critical part can ruin the entire film. Case in point, last weekend it happened to me!

Our granddaughter had her 18th birthday and she had just started a new job at the university as a TA (Teachers Assistant), but instead of being just an assistant she is actually teaching and was assigned two courses, so very important birthday. In one of the courses there is a good chance she’ll have some students she went to high school with when she was a freshman so this day was a big deal.

This is an unscripted event (unfortunately, as you will see). The day started out well and as it went on I was taking shots here and there to fill in the story. The luncheon went well, rolled into afternoon, and a really nice dinner with extended family. Time to relax around the dining table with family while some others went elsewhere. While we were having interesting discussions some of the family started joining the discussions and the next thing I knew a few who were in the kitchen started walking through the doorway carrying the cake (Surprise!) with the candles lit and singing Happy Birthday. Oh my God, and me without my cam set up.

In a panic I grabbed my iPhone (better than nothing), hit camera icon, selected video, then hit the red button. Saved! Sometimes there is no alternative. As the saying goes, “If you want it bad, you’ll get it bad”.

Well, not only did I get it bad, I got it really, Really bad. When I went to press the record button again to Stop I discovered it hadn’t been recording!!!

Can we do this again? Nope. There is NO take two.

After all this work all day long I’ll have to rely on others camera pictures (seemed everybody was taking pictures but I think some were rolling). It might be so bad I’ll have to scratch it but maybe some kind of a montage? There might not be any audio. The only way this movie will be saved is in the cutting room and with good luck from others smart phones. *Stuff* happens.

We just might have to all fall back on our good memories for this one. If things can be salvaged this will be one bad shot (or lack there of) that will degrade the whole film and be remembered. Certainly by me. This is my confession and now y’all know it.

Some bad shots can be fixed in post, some one can get by with, some stick out like a sore thumb and degrade the movie, some are so bad … there is no way they to describe them.

Ryan Elder September 22nd, 2019 12:11 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Yeah that's why I don't like shooting unscripted events as much :).

Well I helped out another filmmaker with his feature film and he managed to shoot his in only six days. That's really impressive for a feature so I would like to get mine shot as quick as possible still, but still have it be good of course.

Paul R Johnson September 22nd, 2019 12:41 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
What exactly would you determine a 'feature' to be? I've never shot a proper movie in my life myself, but I have worked on all kinds of productions. Is it the destination of the end product - so in an actual cinema style theatre, with seats and popcorn, or direct to TV on a high numbered channel, or old fashioned DVD, or distributed on a special interest platform? Is it based on time? If it's 1:20 long does that make it a 'feature'?

My local video club make 'movies' or 'video feature films', but they're just video. They bear no resemblance to the products the big studios put out. Is it TV or a Movie? With Netflix now, the 'features' seem to be a style, and that style costs money. Are the documentaries or special interest material on Netflix, that have much lower budgets, features too?

I find it difficult to imagine a real movie, of movie length, made in a movie style to have been made in six days. I can shoot a factory industrial job in three or four days and probably have a running time of twenty minutes maximum. So that's maybe 240 minutes of video shot for a 20 minute edit. This is with minimal reshoots, and just the downside of industrial videos where you have tons of very boring footage from processes that just aren't exciting - so the ratio for the shoot is bad.

I also n' get my head around the notion of recording a bit of each extra? Why? You have the establishing shot for cutaways, and every other shot surely you must have planned? You seem to do some very strange and detailed planning for some things and none for others.

Brian Drysdale September 22nd, 2019 01:12 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
You can shoot a feature in six days, however, there will be limitations, so don't expect to shoot an action film in six days. You most certainly won't be doing 20 takes on every shot.

I also see little point in just shooting a film as quickly as possible for the sake of it, especially with an inexperienced cast and crew.

Shooting unscripted events would be good training for someone who obviously can't make decisions. It's like learning to speak in public, the only way to get better is by doing it and getting practice.

One director described directing as being like having your house on fire and deciding on what are the most important things to save before it burns down.

Ryan Elder September 22nd, 2019 02:05 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh by feature length it seems that a movie that is 80 minutes or over, I thought was considered a feature. Unless I'm wrong :). As for shooting unscripted events, I've done it before, but I feel I have more experience in other areas, such as editing and sound, and want to learn more about directing, rather than being the camera operator or cinematographer. I thought I would learn more by directing scripted events therefore.

The feature length project I was storyboarding is a horror thriller, so it would have a lot more set ups though. Like an action movie, a horror movie still has actors running away from other actors, and hiding and things like that. So there would be more shot and lighting set ups, right, compared to a comedy or drama?

Brian Drysdale September 22nd, 2019 04:18 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
There are no rules about complexity, horror genre films have traditionally been lower budget and many have short schedules.

There are shorter feature films than 80 minutes. The Academy of motion arts and sciences, AFI and BFI give 40 minutes or longer, the screen actors guild 75 minutes or longer. Centre national du cinéma et de l'image animée in France 58 minutes and 29 seconds. Since you don't have double bills these days in the cinemas, you're less likely to see many of the shorter features.

You can learn a lot by filming real people and how they interact and their body language. Most of human communication is nonverbal, up to 93% according to some, with 7% though the words themselves.

Ryan Elder September 22nd, 2019 08:28 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh okay thanks. Well I can shoot with however many takes are necessary, and just hope it doesn't take a lot of days, if that's best?

Brian Drysdale September 23rd, 2019 12:38 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Well, the psychology of the actors comes into it and if you're not paying the crew they'll get pissed off if you keep doing large numbers of takes, like some directors.

One advantage to shooting film on a lower budget is that forces discipline onto the director and crew, there's a point where you'll run out of film, so you need to ensure that you've got all you need to tell the story without excessive shots.

One director of an award winning short said she thought it was tough on the actors because they had to stop after 2 or 3 takes if they had got what she needed, rather than going for even better. If you have to do 7 takes on a couple of shots, it really throws out your shooting ratio on a short film.

Having the expensive stuff going through the camera concentrates the mind, even more so if you're shooting with a clockwork Bolex so you're limited to 28 seconds for each shot. "Bait" is a current feature film shot this way, the director also processed the film himself. The dialogue was done in post production.


Josh Bass September 23rd, 2019 02:23 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
interesting

Ryan Elder September 23rd, 2019 12:21 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Oh ok.. Well as far as planning shots go, i feel i should shoot two masters and a close up of each major character for coverage, and then any other shots that are emotionally called for. But do i need more than that, when trying to save time?

Brian Drysdale September 23rd, 2019 01:07 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
There are no rules, it depends on the scene and its content.

A pretty standard TV method is a master, which you may or may not be used used in the final edit, but it also acts a rehearsal and everyone can see what's going on, then move in for the closer shots, you may or may not need CUs - MCUs may be enough - it depends on the scene and may only need one CU at the dramatic point.

However, that's a bit predicable and probably relies on talking heads, so it's used mostly in TV soap, where you have a tight schedule and everything is on the nose,

Where's the master shot here?


Ryan Elder September 23rd, 2019 06:33 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I would say in that clip, the mastershot starts in the opening, with the camera behind the audience members heads and then it keeps cutting back to it, off and on, throughout the sequence. Would that be right?

For my project, I was thinking of shooting it like High and Low (1963), which relies a lot on wide shots. Here are some clips from High and Low I found:


Brian Drysdale September 24th, 2019 12:36 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
You've already mentioned "High and Low" in another thread, since you've seen this video on blocking, it gives more information than can be supplied in forum messages, it's a matter of you doing. As it' says. you need to position the camera so that it reveals the nature of the characters, behavior as they interact with each other and you can't learn that from forum messages.

You need to know each character better than the actors and that means more than knowing the lines, it's knowing their needs and how each moment moves towards towards successfully or failing to reach the need of each character. Telling that is a directors job.

Ryan Elder September 24th, 2019 05:15 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Well for the conference room scene for example, I was thinking of having these shots:

1. Master shot of meeting room with the police inspector (it's a police station), giving a briefing in front of a project, in the background of the shot.

2. A medium close up of the inspector.

3. A gimbal shot, where the camera moves horizontally, past the officers from one to the other as they observe what is on the screen.

4. A medium close up of the main character in the meeting.

5. A medium close up of another major character.

6. A close up of what is being shown on the projector screen.

Is this enough shots for a scene that will last about maybe 3-5 minutes, or do I need more coverage than this to be safe?

Josh Bass September 24th, 2019 07:24 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
Thar’s an interesting point...

*I* would say maybe yes, MAYBE add a few CUs of other people’s faces or hands just to cover yourself for potential problems later. That’s just me.

HOWEVER, I have noticed many movies and shows cover the living crap our of their scenes. Multiple angles of wides, CUs, OTS’s, etc. I dont know if this is just to not have to keep repeating the same three shots in a five minute scene or to give them more flexibility (cutting entire lines, changing things around from how scripted etc.) in the edit, or what.

I remember a scene in the Sopranos where it was just Tony and his Therapist in her office for a few minutes and it seemed like there were 10 setups or something...multiple angles of wides, Clean mediums, OTS’s, CUs, profiles in several focal lengths, maybe a few shots with a slow side to side dolly.

Ryan Elder September 24th, 2019 09:35 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I see that a lot more often now, shots of hands. But why... I worked for another director a while ago, who would get shots of the hands doing so many things, and I felt that it was unnecessary. Even if it's just for coverage, a lot of these hand shots would be emotionally awkward to cut to I felt. But even though you see it more now, if you watch older movies, like High and Low even for example.

There are no handshots in those older movies. Unless maybe a hand was going for a gun or something really important, but otherwise no handshots, compared to modern movies.

So were older filmmakers able to do a better job of not needing so much coverage compared to modern ones, or what?

Josh Bass September 24th, 2019 10:24 PM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
I don't know. Hands were just a suggestion. I retract it. I just meant a few extra CUs of...something. Something relevant to your particular story. Some CUs that you don't have to spend a lot of time setting up for, that you could get quickly and not blow your day on.

Brian Drysdale September 25th, 2019 12:37 AM

Re: Is FrameForge worth buying for storyboarding?
 
If you're talking about a 3 to 5 minute scene, I would look at something like "12 Angry Men".

Also, is this scene just exposition or is there something dramatic doing to happen? For a scene that long you need to be something that going on between the characters, a power play for example. If it's a just a talk by the inspector I would start throwing out anything that's not important otherwise the audience will be shuffling in their seats by the end, if not changed channels.


Have a look at "Spiral" for its briefing scenes. It's a French cop series.



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