Yeah, give it a try... try first with a homemade ground glass... or the SLR camera ground glass... if it works, replace it with the spining one

footage looks great, can't wait to see more. really looking forward to your tutorial agus, great job.

I'm very much looking forward to your tutorial. I'll try to mount it to a XL1.

What modification would it require if it was to be mounted directly- that is without the
16x removable lense- to the cam?

Anybody been experimenting on this?
As for the XL1, it'd be much more practical, as the adapter could be made fit with the lense mounting mechanism!

I couldnt tell, i use a TRV18... but actually you should be able to mount it everywhere.

How did the ad shoot go Agus? Got any footage to share?

paulb

agus thank you for all your hard work. looking forward to the
chance to build this great device . your footage is great , and our tiny dv camcorders , now have a chance to make some great images

I have been trying to make this work with a 35mm lens and I can't seem for the life of me to get a good image that is not croped. I zoom but my camera (pd150) can't keep the focus

You'll likely need a close-focus diopter on the front of your lens.

man o man, I cant wait for this tutorial!

in the meantime what do you guys recommend for a Film Lens? 35mm ..50mm? Brand?

I will have the footage of the ad as soon as i finish it adding the 3d animation.

Thanks you all for the interest in this adapter, it is a great thing indeed... i have been working all this week, and the results have been superb so far. I want to make the better ground glass next week.


Peter Sciretta, i solve it using an magnifying glass from a wide conversion lens that i have, the first piece will manify the image without ruining it.

John Gaspain, my best advice would ask for photographer about it, but i found that 50mm lens doesnt actually make closer or farther the image, the 35mm will make it a little up wider, me for example i am using a 50mm minolta lens, but i want to try up 35mm... once you build the adaptor, try to find photographer that let you try some type of lens, then you choose which you preffer.

I reckon I can get one of these on to an XL1s..

Ages ago I got a cokin P-series adapter, which I've not used a great deal as I've since got some tiffen screw-in filters that meet most of my needs. Anyway, the cokin set came with a 72mm adapter designed so that you could slot the P series mount over the top. They do a whole range of them, which step up whatever screwthread you have to the P-mount slot size.

If you were to make a 72mm diameter hole in the cd-spindle then you could put the cokin adapter ring on the other side and then screw it into the camera, holding your adapter firmly in place. The only problem is that you need something larger in diameter than your average cd spindle in order to be able to have a motor spinning at the centre point... However, a cd should be just about the right size to project the image on to.. If you're using something other than an XL1s, this would probably be the best, cheapest way to secure the adapter to the camera, and you can get these rings from camera stores for about £5..

I'm going to have a go at making one when i get back home from Uni..

A couple of questions for you Agus, could you take a still of what the projected image looks like with no zoom on the camera? Also, have you tried mounting the lens at various distances from the "ground glass", how does that affect the quality of the projection? and last of all, did you get the motor out of a dreamcast vibration thing? it's just I'm sure I've got a N64 rumble pak lying around somewhere that would probably make a good motor...

Thanks,
Kieran

PS
A link to explain the cokin adapter thing (I'm suggesting that at stage one in the diagram you put Agus' wonderful device between the camera and the ring, and then secre it to the camera via the ring through the whole in the cd spindle):

http://www.cokin.com/ico1-p2.html

and a chart for getting adapter rings:

http://www.cokin.com/ico2-p3.html

The motor was actually from a cheap toy, i found it very useful cause i also remove the batery compartiment, and the on/off switch from it.

There are several ways to make the adapter, i think using a 25 spindle, will be the best one, cause the spindle have all the exact measures, and you only need to paint it so the light wont contaminate the image built in the ground glass. Also you only have to drill hole in the center, which almost all electric motors found in cheap china toys will center almos perfectly... that is why i choose it... also you have the choice to unmount the cap, in case you need to change the ground glass... it is very practical, easy to build, and useful..

I have been working on a Xmas ad, and i have to tell that for the first experience it was great, but i loose too many light steps and my cheap trv18, make a lot of video noise, i am workin now on remove it, but dont be scare, cause in daylight or in a very illuminated scene, with 4 steps down from the max exposure, you get perfectly video noise clean image... something really great.


Kieran, i would definitely, insist in building it with a 25 cds spindle.

definately looking forward to your footage from the ad you filmed....

Would also love to see a before and after color correction so that we know what comes out on the video without post production.

I have tried to much failure to duplicate your design, so when your design is in the more perfected stage I would like to make an offer to you to build me one...

I thank you for your work in this area...

Agus,

Wow. I am glad I made the post back on Nov 1st looking for the guys that had done this. That is what got you going on this and I'm sure glad it did. I knew that I was very interested in this and felt like you should be able to build something for much less than $8500! As we can now see many people are very interested, 86 posts between the 2 threads and over 3,200 veiws of these threads. Wow. You are doing great work. Keep it up.

BTW I have tried contacting the people I was looking for, to see if they had done any more work on it. I have not heard anything back from them. I think you are as far or further along than they were. Congratulations.

Paul

I am pretty sure that i will make a comercial version of the adapter, also i will post the plans to build a simpler version like this one, the another adapter will be really beatiful,i started planing it internal system, always with rotating ground glass.

Keeping in the real thing, i almost finish the ad, isnt my greatest job.. but a great experiment.

How would these plans adapt to larger lenses (on the DV Camera side). Like the 58mm on the Sony VX2000 or the 72mm on the Panasonic AG-DVX100?

Also, where did you put the fresnel/magnifying glass? Between the lens and ground glass or between the ground glass and the DV camera?

Sorry for all the question, I was able to make the ground glass with spinning mechanism and also able to mount the lens, but I don't know where to mount the fresnel/magnifying glass. Thanks for all your help!

between the ground glass and the DV camera,

Show some pictures of the adapter built !!!

i would love to see the second mini35 Homemade Adapter.

It's not finished yet, still testing focal lengths and what not. Unfortunately I don't have a fresnel lens that fits so I am going to hunt for it sometime this week. Here is what I have so far

Ghetto35 Digital Adapter on the VX2000 :)
http://infrastructuredv.com/g35d/

Thanks again for all your work, Agus!

Good work on the Ghetto35!

I can't wait to see what this thing can evolve into

The footage from both units so far look awesome...

Jun,

Did you just use what Agus has posted so far to come to this? Was it easy? I am waiting for Agus' plans and want to do this bad...maybe I'll start tomorrow...Thanks you guys! Awesome stuff...

WAY too cool !!!

i am going to be famous !!!! :)


hey dude... put some creditin the adapter... make it with a knife... hehehe j/k

I am sooo glad that it worked for you and those pictures looks really great... !!!!

No noise at all...


Cool man... really cool ...

i loved this part "This adapter is a modified version of the ORIGINAL made by Agus Casse."

HEHEHE ok dudes... i will post this tutorial next week with full plans !!!

BTW did you get too much noise from the motor, also, who is the vibration doing, i had to use some homemade pieces from the motor to the ground glass, but let me tell you this tip...

It is almost imposible to make it Zero vibration, try puting a tape in the center of the ground glass cd, and then put in the motor, this way, if the cd is kinda of loose, the self spining force will center it with no vibration and reduce increible the video noise.

I am really glad that you well able to made it, and it worked for you... now we are two owner of a Mini35 adapters for less than 10 bucks !!!!

ISNT that GREEEAAAT ??

Tomorow i will put my adapter to the task, i will shoot a Gokarts race. that will be exciting.

hhehe i noticed in one of the pictures that there are some cds behind that have no case !!! hehheee those cds are now homeless...

Hey Jun,

What was the thing mounted between the camera lens and the cd spindle?

My problem with making one of these for the XL1s will be having to create some distance between the lens and the spindle and then zooming (which may require the addition of some sort of magnifier to help focus). The (stock) canon lens has a diameter of around 8.5cm and the cd spindle is only 12cm in diameter.. However, most of the 8.5cm is just housing, the lens itself is only using a small amount of that diameter.. The problem is mounting the motor at the centre point, when the lens' housing overlaps that centre point.

I'll probably have a go at doing this in about half a month though, so there's still some time to see the next generations of the Agus-35 and see how they deal with it :-)

Kieran

mmm Seens like the mini35 real adapter have the same problems, if you see it, they use another lens to the XL1s, from the box to the camera... perhaps that's the relay lens...

Try to find a really old canon lens from a SLR camera, you should be able to fit it in the XL1s, and then get the image from the ground glass.

J. Clayton, Yeah all I was going on was what Agus had posted about this. Definately try it out if you have the parts handy. Once I get a better fresnel I'll try to make a more permanent and durable version.

Agus, There was some vibration at first, but what I did was lay the cd on a flat surface and filled the center with hot glue and found the exact center (or close), poked a hole, pushed the motor in and hot glued in place... But yeah, it's tough to get little to zero vibration.

Kieran, between the 35mm lens and the spindle? What I used to mount the lenses was the lens cap for the opposite end of the lens that i just cut the top out of, that way I could just screw in Canon EF lenses. On the DV camera side it was a standard UV filter and a macro lens (cause I didn't have the right fresnel) stacked.

This is history in the making, once these get perfected, P+S technik has some serious competition that will surely drive their prices down. Thanks again Agus! (I'm going to say it until I sound like an infomercial! haha)

I'm one of the Canon XL1 users who are waiting with bated breath to see if one of you can come up with a solution for our beloved camera. I have money in hand for the first one of y'all who comes up with a commercial, professionally useable solution, as I'm way too busy and clumsy to build one for myself.

Rock on!

Not to put a damper on the whole commercialism of this awesome idea, but I would imagine that P+S has some sort of protection (patent or otherwise) on the ideas that are being used here, seeing as how Agus said he read the Mini35 manual and just replicated that using common household items (how mad scientist-sounding).

While I agree this could easily drive their prices down (that is... if the footage is good enough and the information is spread wide enough, of course. If no one knows, P+S won't care), I don't think the "homemade" version could be sold commercially.

That said, I've been trying to get my roommate to lend me his 80mm-200mm lens so I can try some of this stuff out. <g> Keep up the good work.

I just shoot a Go karts racing event, the footage is really awesome, i will make a video, showing a demo footage.

about the comercial stuff, well, actually, i dont really think that P+S have invented something new... the tech is the same from SLR cameras, they only make the ground glass to spin, which is not a big discovering. WHat i have to admit is that their product is top noch, it is really pro, you can adapt all kind of lens, they have adjustable GG (ground glass) speed, and you can use the camera batery power to operate it.

They will never loose their clients because of this homemade device, i think it is all the way around... this device will show everybody why they should use it !!! because it is a homemade version, you will never the the perfect picture as the mini35, but you will get the same DOF.

As for a comercial Adapter, yes, i am currently working on building one, what i am pretending to sell, but keep in mind, that this is for poor people, (like me, who make it from the first thing i saw), and it will never be as good as the P+S mini35... i really doubt it... still... For all we indie filmaker, that we only own a miniDV camera, now we can have awesome shoots, for really no money, and in a way train ourself to handle profesional DOF, so if the oportunity comes, we will be able to handle a 35mm camera with no trouble.

Have fun, and the plans will be ready for next week, until then... i will be editing this footage and upload it as soon as i get it.


Thanks everybody for their support, also i want to thank to all the ones that were before me, explaining the theory of the adapter. and how it should be built.

Hello Agus,

I'm blown away by what you've done. Kudos and bravo to you! I'm really looking forward to seeing the tutorial you post online, so I can replicate one of these things for myself!

I'm still stuck on the "lowly" Sony Vx1000. I've been dying to get shallow depth of field, without breaking an arm to get it. It looks like youv'e done it.

Thank you, and good luck!!!

Regards,

Dillon Thomas

re: commercialization of this product

I don't think this product will cannibalize sales of the real mini35. For those production companies and filmmakers that can afford it, they will get the real mini35 setup because it is better. Just like cheaper prosumer stabilizers, cranes and steadicams do not cannibalize sales of their professional counterparts.

The difference is, there has never been a prosumer alternative to mini35... until now?? (please Agus, make this so!)

I'm hoping this becomes a real product that I can purchase and use on my XL1 for music videos, short films, documentaries and wedding videography (yes, imagine a prosumer mini35 setup used in a wedding!).

I will pay good money for this product, because I simply cannot even fathom spending $8k on a real mini35 setup. There needs to be a prosumer alternative to the mini35.

I am still not sure why you need the frosted glass if you are going from the 35mm lens straight to the DV Camera. I understand why it is necessary if you are going through the veiw finder, bouncing off of mirrors etc. It is further from the first mirror to your eye than it would be from the point of the first mirror to the film. So the frosted glass is there the same distance as the film and you are looking at it when you look through the veiw finder. Here is a diagram: http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/camera7.htm

It seems like the light or image will be at the film plane with or without the frosted glass. It seems like the trick is to get the DV camera focused on that plane. Would it be possible to say insert a slide with a focusing pattern and a grid showing the area that should be covered, focus and then remove the slide and block off all light. If this worked it would cut down on the loss of light because of the frosted glass.

Agus, can you focus on the frosted glass and then remove it? If so, what do you get?

The image will still be upside down. Also remember focusing on the move or follow focus will still be a problem with still camera lens because of breathing. See Charles Papert's explanation here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7713&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Still I'm sure we can all live with these problems for this kind of DOF. Add some color correction and 24p or 30p good enough for many projects.


Paul

Once you understand why the Ground Glass work, you will know how the adapter works.

The image from the lens, create a projection in the ground glass, there is where the image with DOF is made

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/camera2.htm

then you shoot that image with your DV camera, pick a SLR lens and try it without the ground glass, and you wont get nothing, just an image upside down.

Wouldn't frosted glass compared to clean glass affect the image quality?

IMO:

The frosted glass is used like a projection screen, and the camcorder "film" the image produced by the 35 mm lens on this "screen". A clean glass would not preserve the focal lenght of the 35 mm lens.

I'm not sure of the proper optical terms here, so I hope I amd able to convey this idea...

The ground glass essentially is acting as a rear-projection element and is re-establishing your depth of focus by reimaging what you are seeing through the 35mm lens.

If you used a condenser lens, you would simply be adding the 35mm lens to your DV lens and would not be gaining the same effect. Again, I don't know the specifics, but you wouldn't be seeing the 35mm image. By recapturing the depth of focus onto a flat screen, you are able to take advantage of the optical properties of that 35mm lens.

Also, the grainier the ground glass, the more contrast you will see. As you remove the grain, the contrast is reduced. Hence the spinning ground glass.

Agus35 vs Mini35

Unbelievable Agus, i'm very impressed, currently i've done some preliminary testing of your prototype which i hope to flesh out over the next many weeks. True the Mini35 is nothing new, just a different take on the "Camera Obscura" (http://brightbytes.com/cosite/what.html). But you are ingenious, daring and ABOVE all inspiring...! That's why I want to dub your creation the Agus35.

Some quick questions... Your using the clear CD from the 25-CD pack, correct? (or is there another component I'm missing which you refer to as the "ground glass"?)or did you aquire an actual circular cut glass which you have "sanded" on one side? Else, I'm also thinking of trying to aquire an actual circular glass and using some etching acid from an arts store to frost one side for a finer "sanded" finish. Would you think that makes a difference in quality? Technically it seems it might. Also have you found an ideal place to put the rotating motor? And another, once you have adjusted the image to appear in the ground glass, the sweet spot, have you tried other lenses to check on their results? Like a zoom???

Well, yeah, if you use a cutted groud glass, made of glass and not plastic, you will have more quality, and you will loose less light steps.

Also, the ideal place for me for the motor is in the center of the spindle, it even have te same diameter to fit those very popular chinese motor toys.

I love all that about calling this adaptor the Agus35 ... heheheh

Posted by Brandt<<The ground glass essentially is acting as a rear-projection element and is re-establishing your depth of focus by reimaging what you are seeing through the 35mm lens.>>

I understand all that. I just can't picture why the light isn't at that same place, plane or distance if you focus on it. I guess the light must actually strike something to be seen.

I see how there are advantages to using mirrors, prism, etc. so as to be looking at the other side of the frosted glass and not having to look through it. That has to really cut down the light as has been discussed. Plus looking at other side it's possible to flip the image. Good bit more involved to make though.

Ok, this is quite simple, it seens that you havent even tried up the adapter, and also you seen not to understand how it works.

The adapter is way to simple to use, to build and the picture quality is amazing clear and pefect DOF... now, if you want to build another adapter using no ground glass and mirros... well... i think that is another topic.

The challenge was to build an adapter which would cost less than 10 dollars, and you could get equal image to the mini 35... i have succeded, the image is clear, i have DOF control, no vigneting... no noise...

the mini35 offers many more really advanced features, but i have adchieved the simpliest ones and the most important.

You need the ground glass.. i dont know why you are putting that you can do it, when you havent even tried. When i look at the mini 35, ithought it was just as simple to put the SLR lens in front of the DV camera, NO... it doest work that way...

So, pick up an SLR camera lens, your dv camera, and tried like you said, to use mirros, and no ground glass, the point is that this topic is about this adapter, which was built only using a 25 cd spindle, and cheap toy with an electric engine...

no means to offend, just to continue moving forward with this project.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2968796829&category=29981&rd=1

I think this may be a way to get better ground glass. It's a 8x10 ground glass used for large format still cameras.

All you have to do is have it cut so it is round, and drill the hole in the center.

Great thread we have here.....

another test...

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/kartfilm.mov

about the GG, i wonder about its weight... cause if it is too heavy it will force a lot the little engine.

I guess the light must actually strike something to be seen.

Exactly. Without actually being projected onto the ground glass, you'll just be bending the light more, which will affect the DOF as if the camera was taking the picture itself. With the ground glass, it's more like your camera is taking a picture of a photograph, or of, say, a movie screen. The picture of the photo or movie screen will show the shallow DOF that the movie camera did. Your camera isn't actually getting real light that's passing through the 35mm lens, it's taking a picture of the image it's projecting, which is a completely different thing.

That's why you can get a shallow DOF on your DV camera using this even if you're zoomed in, with a small aperture, and your CCD is only 1/3"... the usual rules don't apply since you're taking a picture of a picture, not of actual things.

By the way, Agus... what sort of processing are you doing on that footage? It looks very dark, what are the settings you're using? And maybe it's just me, but I'm seeing a little vignetting on the edges... did you not zoom in like you said you were before? All in all though, that looks really good.

I was also just thinking that in a later version of "Angus35" it would be possible with maybe the use of mirrors to vertically flip the image before it got recorded onto the camera to take away from the hassle.

Jon Yurek,
Thank you. That answers my question. I guess the angle of the light changes when it hits the frosted glass.

Agus,
I do understand how it works. I have been looking into this for almost 2 years. I have not tried it yet because I lost everything to a fire some months ago before I could start. I never said that you could get away without the frosted glass only asking if you had tried and what you got. Jon's answer explains why that wouldn't work. You have the DOF and no grain but it also looks dark especially around the edges. Sorry if I got off topic but thought this thread might lead someone on another quest like earlier threads led you to this one.

Noah Posnick,
Stay tuned I am sure you will see other versions.

why are you still calling me angus ? it is Agus.. from Agustin , .. hehehe

Yeah. my comercial version will use a pentaprism to correct the image. but that will take long until it will be avaible, now you can try up the free version :)

About the vigenting Jon, in some scenes i use it as visual effect, :-) i dont see it very dark, could it be that maybe your screen brightness is too low ? (i have to admit, that while i was shooting, the adaptor move a little to the right, check the other side there is no vigneting, after a stupid kid came running and made my camera fall !!!!, that also scracted and bump my 50mm lens... damn, but i can ensure you that there is no vigneting when it is centered, i just didnt noticed.)


I tried to copy a mini35 demo video, which use motocross racers, this is not motocross actually, but you will get the idea, i use Magic bullet, and look suite, and RE smoothkit (to take out the staicases from the interlacing... my cheap TRV18 needs some help always)...

Chek the part where the guy fall, you will see that the other bikes coming in front are really blurred, and also the behind the crash the same happens, your attetion will be only with him, that is the real DOF meaning.

great work Agus, the go-kart footage looks awesome, really good color.

Hi,

I made a phone call to a friend of mine that runs a panel beating shop. He said it's possible just to buy some 2mm or 3mm thick glass from a regular supplier (they'll cut it to size for you if you ask 'em nice) and then using a small and variable rate sandblaster that most panel shops have (course, medium and fine settings) you can create your own ground glass to your own specs. I haven't tried it yet to see which is the least 'grainy' result (I'm thinking 'fine') but it's a relatively inexpensive way to realise the ground glass portion of this little project.

Also, I think an 'inversion' lens whacked on the front of the slr lens may solve the shooting upside down problem. Cokin make a 'mirage' filter that inverts the bottom half of the photographed image to produce an...um, 'mirage'. I guess what is needed is a 'full version' of this kind of filter that simply inverts the image before it goes through the adapter. Does anyone know of this kind of filter?

cheers,

DW

Why invert the video, you can do it in post, shooting it... well is kinda of tricky, but once you get used to, is practically the same, myself, well i am used to now...

Hi,

yeah I was just looking for ways to NOT have to get used to shooting upside down! Obviously you have to be wary of how much light is being compromised - the more elements you put in front of the lens the more light you lose.

While I'm here; Agus you mentioned having a look at the mini-35 manual to see how this idea works - do you know where i can download this manual? On the Technik site there is more of a brochure - no schematics or cross sections - is there another manual that you can d/l?

Thanks for all your great work, it has alot of us very excited.

Best,

DW

Here
http://www.pstechnik.de/sheets/downloads/MiniManual_rev_2002.pdf

Btw, i want to post some pics directly to the thread, can i use the [img ] command here ?