yes please tell about how you took apart the cd player... that could be a much easier/better alternative to this radio shack mottor stuff...

<<<-- Originally posted by Noah Posnick : Could anyone please give some recomendations for a "macro filter" for the Canon GL1 that will allow me to keep the camera focused while zoomed in at a short distance. -->>>

Century Optics makes 2x, 4x and 7x macro adapters. They do not come cheap, though -- $210 from B&H.

I'm making an Agus35 Pro for my GL-1 without a macro adapter. I'll let you know if/how I get it to work.

- jim

What is the concept here? Are there any publications out that can summarize the idea of the mini35? I tried holding a SLR lens to my Cam's lens and i get a blurred image.

Thanks

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : What is the concept here?-->>>

The concept is that you use your DV camera to record a 35mm image suspended on a semi-permeable screen.

That's it.

How you get that done best is up to you, though Agus's method is a good one - use a clear disc that is sanded to a 'frosted' surface and spin it through the beam of light passing through a 35mm lens. The disc suspends the image in mid-air, for your miniDV camera to focus on. You set the focus on your DV camera manually, and use the 35mm lens to pull focus with.

Some thoughts:

People seem to be thinking of ways to upright the image and confining their answers to the adapter. Why not use mirrors mounted via a hood on the LCD screen to upright the image?

You could sand the disc irregularly, leaving gaps that are entirely clear, or place black tape on the disc, too. With this you might get some interesting strobe effects, like the lower shutter speeds on the Sony cams.

The disc could be multi-colored, or you could use multiple discs of different colors instead of filters.

- jim

What sort of SLR lens are you guys who have succeeded used?

THere are tons of them for sale in pawn shops for cheap, but I don't know which one to buy.

One guy answered 50mm, that's fine, but I noticed some that are 1:1.8 and some that are 1:2.8

I don't know what those ratios mean, so if someone could enlighten me, I'd appreciate it.

Jeremiah

Jeremiah, you could as a experienced photographer, he will tell you how to choose lens for each type filming needs.

Jim, once you build it, you will notice that the speed of the disc spinning will be the shutter speed. I can tell for sure about that cause my TRV18 have manual shutter speed, and i its broken, so i cannot use manual focus to try another AE programs.


Still, i hope this week i will able to work on the plans to post it, also i have news that a comercial version with with real ground glass, no audio noise from the motor, and with full mounting like the mini35 is on planning stage... we are projecting the whole package under 800 bucks

Not to beat the point to death...but it shouldn't be difficult for you who have succeded to hold up your lens, read the ratio off of the side of the lens, and report it on this board.

Even if you can't explain what the 1:1.7 or 1:2.0 means, you should be able to at least read the side of your lens.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the thread and the work that people have put into it. (I remember a similar thread back on alt.movies.independent a couple years ago), but before I go buy an SLR lens, I'd like to make sure I can get one that works.

Jeremiah

1:1.8 etc. is the maximum aperture opening I believe. This basically means how much light you can allow to pass through the lens. I think that for this particular use, the more light coming through the lens, the better. So the where the ratio is 1:X, the lower the X the better. 1.8 is a good number.

mg

Cool beans...I appreciate the pointer.

Threre's a store here in town started by a bunch of mini-storage owners, who are selling off the stuff from the people who didn't pay their bills.

They have some interesting stuff from time to time.

Jeremiah

My minolta lens are 50mm 1:2 and i get no vigneting.

So this clear disk has to be in a light proof casing correct? Otherwise, the outside light would bleach out the projected image from the SLR lens. Correct? and how far should this spinning disk be from your Camcorder lens? is it dependent on the camcorder lens and better done with a trial and error strategy?

check out this lens, you can also have zoom, and it have a good aperture size.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=61424&is=REG

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : So this clear disk has to be in a light proof casing correct? Otherwise, the outside light would bleach out the projected image from the SLR lens. Correct? and how far should this spinning disk be from your Camcorder lens? is it dependent on the camcorder lens and better done with a trial and error strategy? -->>>

Trial and error strategy, made all this posible :-)

OK...

[nevermind]

- jim

Ok I grabbed a fake CD thing from my spindle and got my Sigma 35-135 AF zoom lens and just held the two things up in front of my DVX100. I had the DVX's lense focus into macro-mode and the CD was in focus but As you can see, there is incredible vignetting. It seems I can only get a small round image to project. What is the trick of having the 35mm lens image fill the entire frame?

http://www.umich.edu/~ywenz/DVX/GhettoAttempt.wmv

thanks

Could someone tell how to post pictures to this board. I have some pics of my adapter I would like to share with everybody.

The pics show the motor mounted to spindle base, spinning cd mounted to motor, spindle housing, and finally an example of the image projected onto the sanded cd.
Thanks
Mike

If you email the pics to me i can put them up on my webspace.

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : Ok I grabbed a fake CD thing from my spindle and got my Sigma 35-135 AF zoom lens and just held the two things up in front of my DVX100. I had the DVX's lense focus into macro-mode and the CD was in focus but As you can see, there is incredible vignetting. It seems I can only get a small round image to project. What is the trick of having the 35mm lens image fill the entire frame?

http://www.umich.edu/~ywenz/DVX/GhettoAttempt.wmv

thanks -->>>

Hey, why you call it Ghetto ?? it should be Agus35 :)

Ok, you got several problems... first, you need to use the whole spindle plastic case, cause that will not permit the light from outside to ruin the image in the ground glass... then... you need to adapt a Magnifying glass to the dv camera, so in that way you will get more of the image projected, then you need to close as much as you can the GG to the camera lens...

http://altoque.tv/maserati.wmv

Take a look to the second 20 of the video, and the last scene, and there is no vigneting

Check it out, it doesnt have too much quality but i really dont have any time, working a lot with a 3d spot.


Mike,
you can email them to me also...

check my profile for my email.

Agus, that's the best footage yet. It really looks like film, especially the last shot. This thing will be amazingly useful for making short films.. I mean there are big problems trying to follow a car as it speeds round a track (good work on that by the way) but in a scene that you've planned out it'll be fine..

Yang, you need to understand how the adapter works. Your DV camera is effectively being used as some sort of telecine unit - its only purpose is to capture the image created by the 35mm lens. It's like ghetto telecine - videoing your film footage as you project it against a wall. That means the only thing you need to be able to do with your video camera is zoom and focus until the image fills the screen. Also take the camera completely out of auto mode, so there's no gain, no focus problems, and a standard shutter speed.

Next you need to understand what's going on with the lens and the housing and the spinning cd. The housing stops any light getting in. Just like an ordinary stills camera - the only light you want coming in is the light that comes in through the lens. The role of the the sand-papered CD is to act as a projection screen. It's like the film in a stills camera - it's where the image from the lens is focused. The reason it needs to spin is so that you get rid of the grain caused by sanding the cd.

So what you're doing is using the 35mm lens to create the image - to zoom, to set the exposure, etc. And you're using the video camera to capture this image.

By the way Agus, have you experienced the "spinning vortex" that mini35 users refer to?

Kieran

Agus,
I was ready to email the pics but I could not find your e-mail address on your profile page.
Mike

my email is kamicasse@intelnet.net.gt, if you need to contact me via MSN messenger you can do it at kamicasse@hotmail.com

You can email photos to me and I'll put 'em up here at dvinfo.net -- here are Richard Mellor's images:

http://www.dvinfo.net/media/rmtopview.jpg
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/rmsonywalkman.jpg
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/rmlensadapter.jpg
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/rmcdepoxied.jpg
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/rmrearview.jpg
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/rmcloseupmotor.jpg

<<<-- Originally posted by Kieran Clayton : Agus, that's the best footage yet. It really looks like film,

By the way Agus, have you experienced the "spinning vortex" that mini35 users refer to?

Kieran -->>>

Thanks dude, you wont belive the shoots that i have from that day, i will post up more...

Well, there is no spinning vortex here, thats cause the mini35 GG spins in a diferent way than the cd, in the mini35 you capture the center of a circular GG, in Agus35 you capture the edge from a bigger diameter GG...

They had to change it , the new mini35 seens to oscilate now and wont rotate.

BTW... how many Agus35 were built until now, or that we know ?

Yang Wen! What codec did you use to make your ghettoattempt clip? I can't play it.

From Mike Perkin:

http://www.dvinfo.net/media/mpsandedcd.jpg
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/mpmotorwithcd.jpg
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/mpmotoronbase.jpg
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/mpmotorandcd.jpg
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/mpinsideprojection.jpg
http://www.dvinfo.net/media/mpfronthousing.jpg

Concept - As I understand it.

Stage One

Subject being videod/filmed >>> via SLR camera lens >>> onto a semi-opaque screen (like a rear projection TV screen) positioned on the lens focal plane --- the same position the film would be if if the SLR lens was mounted to a camera. (This is a focal plane for that lens.)

Stage Two

That image (like a projected image) on the semi-opaque screen >>> via video camcorder lens >>> onto 1 x CCD chip or (3 x CCD chip array) To get that image to appear large enough to fill your video camcorder viewfinder, you may have to use a close-up lens or if that is not powerful enough, make up a relay lens to get the camcorder to focus on the projected image sharply enough.

The relay lens might be something like the eyepiece out of a telescope. I have used a lens set out of a 42mm telescope eyepiece and placed that between the camcorder lens and the projected image for another similar application.

SUMMARY: There are two stages of focussing. The SLR lens focussing sharp onto the semi-opaque screen. The camcorder aquiring a sharp image of that projected image. You are taking a picture of a picture. This is not realy the most efficient way of aquiring an image but ---

from this point is where it gets interesting. You just can't get a frosted glass texture fine enough to display the image from the SLR lens sharply enough. If the texture is too fine, then you can see through the glass beyond the focal plane into the guts of the SLR lens and through that all the way to your subject. So all you see is a bright hole. If the frosted glass texture is too course, then all you see is a pattern of rough pits and scratches colored vaguely in the form of the image.

If you try to look through a raindrop blinded windscreen on your car or the wire mesh on a screen door, you discover that if you move your head about, you can see through the obstruction. P&S Tecknik, cleverly worked this principle by moving the windscreen instead of the viewpoint.

You are not looking at your subject through the groudnglass screen with the Mini35 adaptor, you are looking at an image projected onto the groundglass screen which is made to seem finer by being moved faster than the camera can see its rough texture. The Mini35 adaptor moves this screen by spinning it across the SLR lens focal plane. Agus' earlier prototype as I understand it rapidly moved a screen back and forth across the SLR lens focal plane.

The Mini35 operating notes tell you that you must keep your camcorder shutter speed selected slow so that you do not freeze the motion of the rotating screen and thus detect the frosted texture on it and spoil the image.

I hope this has not confused you too much.

That's a very good description indeed.

I'm still not sure if a relay lens is strictly needed. With the original mini35 and the XL1s it was simply more practical to take advantage of the fact that you could remove the XL1s' stock lens - it makes everything less bulky. The only problem with optics for the Agus35 is being able to 1) focus the image 2) zoom until it fills the screen, which, as people are discovering, can be difficult to do simultaneously.

I'm thinking about using some kind of sliding close up filter between the XL1s lens and the cd so I can experiment a bit with zoom and focus.

Only a week till I start work on it :o)

Kieran

About connecting it to our cameras - this has become a major concern between my video compadre Spencer Houck and I. We're both concerned about the best way to secure this beast to our cameras. I noticed someone had a 58mm thread glued into the back of the spindle - I had that same idea, but since this thing is a little front heavy methinks it'll put a lot of strain on the threads. It might not be such a idea to secure it that way and warp the threads, after all, I really do like the ability to switch adapters and filters!

We were thinking more along the lines of a bayonet mount (for those of us that have lens hoods). We tried looking for a place that sells the lens hood alone for the GL1/VX2K, but alas, no dice. I think it's an important issuse, I'd like to hear what others have to say - esp. those that don't have a bayonet mount. How do you do it Agus?

I used WMV 9 to encode the footage, if you do'nt ahve Media Player 9, you can't view it. Sorry.

On the mount... I guess you can also constructut a plate that attaches to the Agus35, that your camera screws into. That way, the weight is not on the mounting threads to hold the entire assembly up. It'd be a big unit all together, but it would give you more weight and would resemble a film camera even more!

Wow i suspect if I can get a 3D model of this Agus35 caseing made, I can use the prototype machine at my school and get a 3D copy of it printed. Then somewhere on campus I can get copies of this thing made. Perhaps get a two piece design that screws togeether, compelete with the holes to accept adapter rings?

Got mine working... it is VERY shakey. I plan on building a better model that won't shake as much next. the DOF is great. I wish I could flip/reverse the image rather than do it in post....

here are two images...

http://www.orfilms.com/35test.jpg

http://www.orfilms.com/35test2.jpg

<<<-- Originally posted by Devin Doyle :
We were thinking more along the lines of a bayonet mount (for those of us that have lens hoods). We tried looking for a place that sells the lens hood alone for the GL1/VX2K, but alas, no dice. I think it's an important issuse, I'd like to hear what others have to say - esp. those that don't have a bayonet mount. How do you do it Agus? -->>>

I use a metal piece that connects to the tripod hole in the camera, so the whole piece is more stable

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Sciretta : Got mine working... it is VERY shakey. I plan on building a better model that won't shake as much next. the DOF is great. I wish I could flip/reverse the image rather than do it in post.... -->>>

If it is shakey, the GG could be centered, but not aligned, so it moves back and forward a little, try to correct that. Congrats...

So if i am not mistaken, there should be like 6 Agus35 adapters built this far and that we know because of the thread?

<<<-- Originally posted by Agus Casse :

So if i am not mistaken, there should be like 6 Agus35 adapters built this far and that we know because of the thread? -->>>


7 if you count the one I'm trying to build.

I found this piece of ground glass that I'll have to get cut:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2968796829&category=29981&rd=1

And two spare Nikon mount flanges:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2969208892&category=4702&rd=1

So now its just a matter of trying to figure out how to rig the thing with my dvx100. I have a brother who is a CNC machinist who may help me out on this.

try to make a metal skeleton from the camera to the adapter


BTW those rings looks beatiful, but how is that you will lock your lens ? you need a release button like the SLR camera have. i am about to post some footage, but i am low in webspace...

<<<-- Originally posted by Agus Casse : try to make a metal skeleton from the camera to the adapter


BTW those rings looks beatiful, but how is that you will lock your lens ? you need a release button like the SLR camera have. i am about to post some footage, but i am low in webspace... -->>>

If I'm not mistaken the relase button is actually on the lens, not the camera.

not on my minolta lens, you release them from the camera.

<<<-- Originally posted by Agus Casse : not on my minolta lens, you release them from the camera. -->>>

You're right...maybe I'll have to tear apart an old Nikon F body camera and rig it that way.

yeah, watch out for the weight...

i think i will start experimenting with some metal rods...

I'm about 1/2 way done my Agus35 Pro :)

I picked up a black "project box" from Radio Shack yesterday ($6.99), and a few other miscelanea...a switch, some wire, 9v batteries, a 9v battery clasp, etc. I spent about $18 total.

Then I went to Home Depot and picked up some epoxy ($5), a length of scrap 1/2inch PVC piping (for support rails - $0), a velcro strap ($5), and to attach the camera to the Agus35, a 3"-3" adjustable pipe coupling ($5).

I've got the other parts here already - an old Sony disc man, a clear CD from a spindle, and an array of cutting/drilling tools.

Incidently - if you plan on making more than one of these things, there are 54 and 57mm diameter dremel bits at Home Depot, that fit into a standard drill. Might be perfect for lens mounts.

The Radio Shack project box (dimensions: 8x6x3 inches; fitted back) is the perfect thickness for lens mounting - you just cut a hole the size of your lens, cutting notches where the lens pops in, and give it a twist - presto!

Preliminary pics:

http://ideaspora.net/box-front.jpg

http://ideaspora.net/inside-rear.jpg

Agus - email me if you need server space for footage. I've got a dedicated server with room to host plenty.

- jim

Kool, Jim, you got a big box there :) ... so pro ah ! kool

Do you use MSN messenger ? you can contact me at kamicasse@hotmail.com if you have any doubts that i could help, btw.. nice drilling.. .almost perfect and the lens fit and kinda of lock up... right ?

Yeah, the lens mount worked out OK, I guess. Little rough around the edges, but...it does lock into place.

Bob, over at Indieclub.com, advised using a F-to-C mount adapter to mount the lenses. You wound then just have to mill a hole in your adapter box and then you could switch lenses freely.

He also suggested using a chroziel matte box to connect the camera to the unit.

Here's an F-C mount (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh6/controller/home?O=&A=ShowProduct&Q=&sku=77558) from Century Optics, costing $60.

Here's the link to the thread I've started, including Bob's advice (http://www.indieclub.com/tacoboard/thread.asp?ident=95126036193915&page=1).

- jim

I some people have been concerned with flipping the image in post. Maybe you could build an adapter that would "hold" the camera upside down??? Would this work??? Agus, have you tried this? I realize that you would not have accessibility to all controls, but as I understand it you get the camcorder dialed in and leave it alone....just thinking out loud....

That is the most ridiculous, absurd, WONDERFUL idea I think I've ever heard -- just mount the camera upside-down! That might actually work! And it'd give you a hair better picture quality because you'd eliminate the need for mirrors and prisms!

You'd have to use an external monitor, because your LCD and viewfinder would now be upside down, but that is a cool idea! You'd also have to rig up a mounting system so you still had a tripod socket, etc...

Not sure I'd want to show up in front of a client with it, but for guerilla indie filmmaking, that kind of thinking is the bomb!

Here is a tip for those that have too much trouble shooting inverted... flip a little the lcd screen just after it turns to mirror mode, in that way you will be able to get a corrected image.

"Not sure I'd want to show up in front of a client with it, but for guerilla indie filmmaking, that kind of thinking is the bomb!"

Ok Barry, so, now here's another project. I think we need to get the molds of a CineAlta, cast a plastic box to conceal all of our rigging and then, wal-la, you have a "professional" looking camera and no one would know the lesser...

I can't wait to get started on the Agus35...just haven't had much time to actually do it, just to think about it.

Jim, I am very anxious to hear how the use of the CD player motor worked, and the use of the "black box." Please keep us updated!!!

Clay

Seens like this is the larger and most seen post in the history of dvinfo.net

Wow!!! Congratulations Agus! Your "invention" is fascinating for a lot of users! It could be interesting to have a top ten list of the most participatives threads on this board.

hey agus, things are really moving along here, way to go.

just thinking out loud here, but maybe a couple simple design changes ( inspired by looking at an actual mini35, size and shape ) could help solve a couple of problems.

it seems to me that the gg in the mini35 is most likely the size of a silver dollar ( say 4 to 6 cm in diameter ) and most likely set at a 45 degree angle. if this is the case then you would be taking a picture of the image created on the side of the gg that it hits, instead of through the gg, seems this would make a big difference, in sharpness and luminance. the gg's so small you could go with glass instead of plastic, this also would be an improvement. this would also explain the vortex thing with the mini35, which i think we could get rid of by vibrating the gg instead of spinning (hmmm, where'd i get that idea, think orbital sander ). you would need one more mirror ( top of box/ unit ) and a relay lens ( maybe this would take care of the flipped image, not sure ) i think this could still be done on the cheap, and the unit could end up being smaller, well at least narrower.

i could be way off, but for the sake of experiment, i think i might have to give this a go, nothing to lose.

how's this sound, am i way off?

here's another Agus35 shoot test...

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/Agus35maseratitest.wmv

you cannot put the GG 45, cause one side will be in a larger distance from the lens, what you can do is put a mirror 45 degres just like a SLR camera, and then you put the GG and then a pentaprims that correct the image...