hello there, for all the "film look" fans... i have some news.. i have been experimenting for a while with a 50mm lens a homemade ground glass, a magnifying glass, and also a Dreamcast video game vibrator accesory...

It works pretty fine.. the image comes from the lens and create the proyection in the ground glass.. which vibrates at high speed.. reducing a lot the grain from the ground glass.. from there i use the magnifying glass to capture more the of the usable part of the projection (you always will get a round shaped bright light coming form the lens) from there i capure it with my cheap TRV18 ....

Open a new world to me in filming that will lead me to create a lot better video with a lot less money.

The optics are great.. as soon as i finish up the box i will post up the plans so anyone that want to give it a shoot could pass all the troubles that i found with no problem.

Note from Chris Hurd: -- If you'd like to read an edited version of this thread which has been condensed down to the technical essentials (free from off-topic posts, meta-data, repeated questions, etc.), then please check it out right here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18950). Continue to post repsonses to this thread, however. Hope this helps -- CH

Agus,

Do you have the capabilities or place to post some footage. Can't wait for the plans and to see some examples! Thanks in advance...

Clay

Ok, i have some shoots that i made with the adapter finished... it is all in testing stage at the moment.. but i can ensure you that with less than 30bucks you will get perfect 35mm quality DOF...


http://altoque.tv/test35mm2.mpg

There is another test... it was shoot in the middle of the night with no aditional light....just a test.. the vigneting is caused because of the low quality ground glass...

Cool stuff, Agus. Give us more to watch!

The sample you posted is hard to tell anything from. There are really no references in the image to judge exactly what it is we're watching. I think the best you could do is let something move into focus (like a person or an object).

Ok...

i finish up the adapter.. you cant imagen how awesome optics and DOF i am getting now...

here is a pic of the adapter mounted...

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter.jpg

The ground glass rotate at great speed inside so the grain disappear... i will post some footage as soon as i get it to the pc...

I dont the following tests...

focus pulldown, serious DOF density (background really blured), and some movements with the camera and the adapter... another thing is that you can still mount it in a stabilizer and move freely...

looks cool, but I dont really understand how it works...

could we get some more pics?

Agus,

Looks very interesting but it seems like the weight of all of that gear up front is going to sheer off your lens housing on the little video camera. Maybe the next project will have to be a DIY set of rails... ;)

Great work though. Look forward to seeing more examples from it.

Best,
Clayton

Why not use the 35 adapter from XL1solutions? It cost a ton less, and you can use 35mm lenses.

http://www.virtualcybervision.com/xl1/red%202.JPG
http://www.virtualcybervision.com/xl1/ADAPTERS.htm

First, i dont own a XL1 and i dont have the money for it.. i cannot just adapt the lens to my camera, cause it just wont work... i really don tknow how the xl1 works... but that seens really awesome just to adapt the lens to the camera...

i just cant, thats why i have to project the image to a ground glass and then shoot that projection...

Agus,

The XL1 and XL1s have interchangeable lenses. Auto focus lens, manual lens, and a wide angle lens all can be put on the camera. Also, you can use any of the Canon XL and EF 35mm camera lenses allowing you to use lenses from 24 to 2160 mm lens. It is awesome! It works just like you would change a lens on a SLR camera!

Some frames

http://altoque.tv/test35mm2.jpg

and

http://altoque.tv/test35mm.jpg

I have to apologize for the quality of the grain.. but i had low light and the adapter makes you loose a lot of steps of light as well...

i will test it in outdoors soon, as soon as i solve some vibration problems and the optics aint that good now...

These shoots shows the example of shallow DOF like you see first blur, in focus, and blur in the background

http://altoque.tv/test35mm.wmv

There is another test the problem here is that tripod was moving a lot and there is some vibration ... i am still learing to shoot with the adapter.. but i think i will have to make some kind of support so i can tense all the system for now movement at all.

wow even though it was shakey and stuff, i still loved the look of the footage... well done...

when you perfect it, would you post some plans of it... i can have a professional engineer make one up if you do...

kewl

Zac

Agus, the pics you've posted looks very nice, in terms of DOF!

"from there i use the magnifying glass to capture more the of the usable part of the projection " - make sure to capture a 36/24mm image.

Kevin Maistros, the 35 mm adapter from XL1solutions is a different animal! It will let you use a 35mm lens on the XL1, indeed. But it will not preserve the DOF of a 35 mm, like they state on the site...

I like http://altoque.tv/test35mm.wmv. It is very nice. Nice image, nice DOF, nice tripod moving! :) You see, the man in the image seems a bit agitated. This is the mood you have transmited through the litle film. The man is smoking, the image shakes - it seems that the character has some rough time! (could it be the noice from the 35mm adapter? :) )

Yeah that is my dad, he helped me a lot in this project..

i have great news... i download the mini 35 manual, and i discovered that i was missing a part... the relay lens... now i am making a homemade version of it... also i work more on the ground glass....

Just for an advance.. it is all in the ground glass... the fake cd plastic loose a lot of light...

GREAT NEWS !!!

Ok, i solve the whole optics problem, now there is no vigneting at all.. i improve the ground glass, and change a little the design to reduce the noise and vibrations (need to build a metal skeleton to reduce them all to zero, the video shows vibrations from my hand adjusting the lens's focus) ...

Check this video i finish it as soon as i could finish the problems mentioned before.

http://altoque.tv/toy35mmtest.wmv

Another Test with some color grading and "film look" filters

http://altoque.tv/cigarros35mmtest.wmv

Agus,

After a week, I've finally fixed my account so I can post again...

Congratulations on your accomplishment!! The images are gorgeous.

Is the grain in the image due to the ground glass grain or DV artifacting? If it is part of the ground glass, I can recommend a couple people who can improve the resolution of the grind.

How noisy is the oscillator? Have you thought of rubber mounting it to your housing to eliminate vibration? This might help when you focus your image. Essentially, wherever your motor or ground glass touches the frame, you would insert a bit of rubber to minimize vibration.

Anyway, keep us posted.

I'm sure we'd all love to see a schematic if you're in a sharing mood!

-Brandt

Wow, that DOF is great. How does the focusing on this system work? Keep it coming...can't wait to see the finished product!

I think that the most simple the design of the adapter is, the better it will work, what i need now is make the metal skeleton to eliminate all vibration and to secure the 3 parts of the adapter, the lens, the box, and the relay lens.

I have been thinking a lot about postin the plans to build it, i think i will really soon, but i really want that the people remember that i build it first.

About the grain, my camera is a TRV18, if you know the model, you will know it is the cheapest DV camera around, when you got low light and your exposure is on max, you get always grain.

<<<-- Originally posted by Agus Casse : I have been thinking a lot about postin the plans to build it, i think i will really soon, but i really want that the people remember that i build it first.
-->>>

You might post something in the business part of this forum on how to copyright or trademark the plans....and make sure you name it after yourself! If it's any consolation, I think we all appreciate what you are doing...I know I do. There's nothing better than making something better by modifying it and doing it yourself!

Agus, this is really great looking. I eagerly await your posting of the plans... I'd love to give this a try myself!!

thank you so much,
paulb

I wanna know how to build this thing... it looks awesome!

Peter

I would love to see the plans for this. I am shooting a DV feature in a month or so and I wanted to rent the Mini35 adaptor, however, it is out of my budget. this would be incredible if I could build this. Please let me know. My email address is noah@posnick.com

Here are the pictures of maybe the last version of the adapter.

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mm7_0004.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mm7_0005.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mm8_0001.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mm8_0003.jpg
http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/35mm8_0005.jpg



The image now is almost perfect, i rapidly reduce the vibrations, and make a metal support that connects to the tripod hole, also the whole adapter can be detached with no problems with no screws at all... check 35mm8_0003.jpg.

Check the phone cable attached to the battery box, i place it in the mic holder, if i need it to attach a light or another mic, i can detach it and put it in my pocket... it comes really on handy cause there you have the on/off switch, and you can remove some weight to the camera using a stabilizer

I will post a video sample soon. About the plans, i need to make the webpage, and take the pictures and explain how to build it.

This is great, but I am a little confused... Doing the cd rotate or not? If it doesn't what is the need for all of that? Also I'm glad to hear you will be putting a "how to" together. Rougly when do you think you'll have this up by? I'm only asking because i'm so eager to get started on my own.

Of course,

you need to rotate the cd so the grain will disappear. i will put in raw instructions how you could build the basic version of the adapter, while i start making the plans and taking some picture in how to build a better working version.

1.) Buy a 25 spindle CDR pack...

2.) Drill 2 holes (see the picture) from one you put your Camera lens and in the other you put your dv camera,

3.) Take a electric motor from a toy (those $ 0.99 stores are your best allies in this project) and put it in the center of the spindle, you need to drill another hole.

4.) Take one of the fake cds, those thar look like cristal glass, and from one side you take some 600 sandpaper, and carefully you start scratching one side of the fake cd... (this is your ground glass)

5.) Basically now you just put your pieces together, the lens, the cd spindle box, with the fake cd rotating inside thanks of the electric motor, and in the other side you dv camera.. you will notice that the lenses is making a projection in the groundglass, when you start rotating it, you will check that it is like a hologram floating in the air.. that is the what you got to film with the dv camera.

Fantastic Agus, that looks like almost enough to start experimenting on my own.

A few questions:

What is the "relay lens" and where is it in your set up?

What is that piece that connects the film lens to the CDR spindle case. Is that the relay lens?

What did you use for the battery pack? Did that come from the toy also? What toy did you use? (im trying to determine what speed motor I need - i.e. how fast to spin the ground glass.)

What did you use to connect the pieces together? Epoxy?

Thank you SO much Agus, your project is really going to help me out. I can't wait to see your new video sample!

paulb

The relay lens is where you put your Dv camera,

The piece that conect the film lens to the CDR spindle case is just a plastic tube with the same diameter (i took it from a flash light in the latest model of the adapter, so i can turn it and remove it to change lenses), i use 2 AA, about the speed of the ground glass (the fake cd) it could be said that it should be like the shutter speed... you will get it as soon as you build yours, you the first step is to get the projection in the ground glass, then you can start experimenting a lot.

I use one of those plastic guns, the ones that you put silicone tubes and they get heated and liquified (i got lots of burns with it)

TIP: There is a center circle in the hard plastic of the spindle, use that to center the electric motor, that is esential, as well as when you will stick the ground glass, it has to be perfectly centered, or you will start getting vibrations that will screw your footage.

I recomend you to dowload the mini35 digital manual, there you will see the order of the pieces... my model is a homemade copy of that device... it works the same, but more basic, also remember that the fabrication of the ground glass is the hardest part, that will depend your quality of video and grain... i will for example make a glass version, cause the plastic from the cd loose a lot of light steps.

From the mini35 manual, it looks like the relay lens is something that goes between the DV camera lens and the ground glass, but in your set up it looks like the DV camera lens is just shooting the picture of the ground glass directly...

that's where I'm confused... it looks from your pictures like the DV camera lens is just sticking through the back of the box and taking a picture of the ground glass directly. Where is your "relay lens"? Is it a piece of glass that I can't see or is the relay lens just the lens of the DV camera itself?

Sorry about my confusion... maybe it's because the mini35 manual is for an XL1, which fits on the front of the camera directly instead of in front of a built-in lens like your camera?

Another question (Sorry, I should probably just wait for you to post more a more detailed website): How do you figure out the right distances between the back of the film lens, the ground glass, and the DV lens?

Finally: how did you fix the vignetting? I thought that required the use of some sort of fresnel piece?

paulb

p.s. it looks like eBay is a good place to find "real" ground glass. Just do a search for it and it turns up many results. With an 8x10 sheet of real ground glass and a circular glass cutter to make it the same size as a CD, maybe you can get a much better result (less light loss.)

Well, yeah you are right i am shooting directly to the ground glass, i use the term of "relay lens" just to undertand where it is positioned, sorry for that, my bad...

about the vigneting, you have to zoom in until it is gone, my cam has the manual focus broken (reason that i build the adapter!!) so to help the auto focus, i use a magnifying glass that i had from a wide conversion lens (the last glass magnify).

you can always get better ground glass if you buy it from a profesional, but my challenge was to build it with less than $10 (the cdrs box)... just to prove that the P+S adapter price is far overvalued, and you can get really good results with less, a lot less money.

I just shoot my self smooking a cigarette if you want to see, i can upload it in a couple of mins. (my baterries of the adapter are running low and it is 3am to go and buy another one, so you will notice that the ground glass speed isnt too fast) .

Awesome... I will start experimenting soon! (Maybe tommorow?) Thank you for answering my questions!!

Is the magnifying glass required to make the set up work, or is that only in your case because of the broken manual focus? If it is required, where does it go in the setup?

I'd love to see more footage from the device. As much as you have! (I can host files for you also if you need bandwidth/web space - just let me know - paulbweb@hotmail.com)

paulb

Nah, it is not necesary to have the magnifying glass, i had the problem that when i zoomed it it went out of focus, thats why i used it... from there you should have no trouble at all.

Tomorrow we will shoot a TV spot with the adapter, lets see how it handle.... what i know for sure, is that i will need a lot more lighting equipment cause the ground glass loose a lot of light in the process.

http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/spotAdapter35mm.wmv

Some sample... hey.. i was bored... :)

Oh man... I'm sure you feel the same way: that footage, even as simple as it is, looks just phenomenal coming from a TRV18... incredibly film-like, as they say. What else are you doing to that footage besides the adapter? It looks de-interlaced to me - does it have any other filmlook effects?

I'm very interested to see how this adapter handles in daylight.

Please keep us updated on how the shoot goes tommorow, as well as posting any more footage you have! I can't wait to get started building my own...

thank you so much,
paulb

I only use color corrector in premiere pro, in the daylight the adapter works perfectly, cause you have also the option to control the iris from the lens, that means less grain, i can underexpure and still get high light coming from the lens... it is a pretty tricky thing at first, but then you can have great control and excellent picture.

Hi Agus.
From the pics and your explanation I figured I could help you get better results...
"the ground glass loose a lot of light in the process"
A very fine GG will take away the vigneting but will also loose allot of light. A coarser GG will let more light to pass thorough, but you'll also gett allot of vignetting. You can get both a vignetting free image and also enogh light from the GG by combining a coarser (spinning, of course) GG and a fresnell lens. The fresnell lens, put in front of the GG (as close as posible) will even the light on the surface of the GG. (in front of hte GG - that is between the GG and the 35mm lens). Another thing to remember is that the fresnell lens, like any other lens, has its own focal point. The lens of the camcorder should be in that focal point of the fresnell, oherwise you'll not get rid of all vigneting. Now, depending of that focal distance, you'll need a "relay lens" so you can zoom in and focalize the camcorder on the GG.

Otherwise, with plenty of light, your footage looks great!

I hope you understand my bad english...


PS: You smoke to much! :)

I'm willing to pay someone to make me a working adapter...

Agus?

anyone?

Hi Angus!. It is very entertaining to follow your experimentation with you. But, maybe I am a stupid person (!!!) but I can't find a way to play your samples. Can you tell me which codec I need yo istall? or any other tips please?

Thanks a lot, and your adaptor look awesome!

P.S.: Which "film lens" are you using?

Jean-Philippe,
I kept getting an error message as well (unknown error # C00D11CD) and became very frustrated because of how interesting this is. Finally, I downloaded the clip to my harddrive (right click - save target as) and it worked perfectly. Hopefully that's what you're running into.

Agus,
Great job on the mini35 project. I can guarantee that I will be visiting your website. I'd like to suggest something too... maybe you could set up a donation link (through paypal?) so people, like myself, can send you a small "thank you for all your work" donation after using your free plans. You definately disserve full credit for this discovery and it would be nice to recieve something in return.

Donation for what ?... come on guys, i learned a lot in this forum, it is time to give something back, also if this forum wouldnt exist, i would never knew how to build it.

Hey peter... come on, dont be lazy, it is a very fun project to do, once you get the projection coming in the ground glass, you just need to put all together....

Wish me luck, today i will shoot a tv spot.. hope the adapter really works in the real world.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jean-Philippe Archibald :

P.S.: Which "film lens" are you using? -->>>

I am an Minolta 50mm 1:2 lens from a SLR minolta camera, but i saw some 35mm lens from nikkon, with zoom, and focus control in like aprox $450 (reason that i willl shoot the video today, perhaps i could buy it if they take the ad)

Agus, how did you figure out how far to place the 35mm lens from the CD and the CD from the lens of the DV camera?

paulb

I am horrible at building anything, couldn't even put together a dolly right, with help...

so the offer is out there... if anyone can build one of these please email me an offer, cause I am looking to buy such an adapter

Thanks

Peter

Peter, why dont you make me an offer, and let see what i can do.

hey i would love to see how this thing works in great detail.. like a 3d plan or at least a proper schematic.

I would then build a version which is more compact and using ground glass not a plastic cd.

Could you please send me full details of dimensions and alike, and exactly what is needed.

My email is zac@mindfreeproductions.com

If i get one built, there is no reason i couldn't get more built after.

I use a dvx-100e.

Zac

ps. when you video the picture on your camera, does it come out upside down, and you have to flip in post?

Yeah, exactly, you get the picture upside/down, which it is a bitch to shoot, but you can correct it in post, today we shoot a xmas ad for a tv network with the adaptor, it worked prefectly, i will post some material when i get it edited...

i can get used to after a while, but still it is a bitch.... hehehe now... if i could get a pentaprism from a SLR camera, i could correct the image from the adaptor. just like the SLR camera...

I will make all plans in 3dsmax, with complete animations to download and step by step explanations and tips... remember.. this is a homemade version, something that you can make it fast and works 100% perfectly, from there you can improve it and therefore get better video (better ground glass, selective speed, correct image orientation...

A fast solution with the upside/down video is using a LCD monitor fliped out in the tripod, or the stabilizer... i will make some tests with my monitor soon as well.

<<<-- Originally posted by Agus Casse : http://altoque.tv/35mmAdapter/spotAdapter35mm.wmv

Some sample... hey.. i was bored... :) -->>>

That looks GREAT! You are a hero!

just a question.

I have an old broken canon FD slr, if i removed the parts that run from the lens up to viewfinder, and blocked the light from other sections.....

well if i placed spinning ground glass at the end instead of the viewfinder ground glass... would that work... and then used say a diopater to magnify the image.... is that how the real mini-35 sort of works?

Zac